Olivier Messiaen (1908-1992)

Started by bhodges, January 03, 2008, 09:35:19 AM

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EigenUser

Quote from: Mandryka on January 22, 2016, 07:27:19 AM
I'd be interested if anyone thinks of them differently. I've often wondered if they are spiritual in some sense, given the leanings of the composer.
Good point. Messiaen's use of birdsong is absolutely spiritual. He strongly believed that God was everywhere and spoke through nature. You can easily see this in the text (which he wrote) to the 3rd of the Trois Petites Liturgies (which is partly why I think it is his most important composition -- it gives insight into his beliefs that permeated his entire output). Here's an English translation of parts of the movement (from CSO program notes):

Whole in all places,
Whole in each place,
Bestowing being upon each place,
On all that occupies a place,
The successive you is omnipresent,
In these spaces and times that you
created,
These satellites of your Gentleness.

Place yourself, like a seal, on my
heart.

[...]

In the rainbow, with one wing after the
other,
(Blind sash around Saturn),
Present in the hidden race of my
cells,
In the blood that repairs its banks,
Present , through Grace, in your
Saints.

(Interpretations of your Word,
Precious stones in the in the wall of
Freshness)
Place yourself, like a seal, on my
heart.

[etc...]
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

Mandryka

#421
http://d97bcfa3.cm-3-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl/scores/M/Messiaen,%20Olivier/Messiaen%20-%20Catalogue%20d'Oiseaux%20Book%203.pdf


The above commentary on La Chouette Houlotte emphasises scariness - words like terrifying, heart beating too quickly,
painful, lugubrious, and at the end the shriek of a murdered child. So I thought I'd kill some time searching for the most scary version on record.

There are tons of these things on spotify, but from this point of view (ie over the top melodrama) they were disappointing, apart from one pianist, two versions.

My vote goes to Loriod - both recordings seemed good, the short and the long.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

snyprrr

Quote from: karlhenning on January 20, 2016, 06:10:06 AM
Cool.

http://www.youtube.com/v/DHqvZk4mQs4

well, frankly, that's the one Messiaen Piano  Piece that is his single best, and everyone knows it, that's why I wanted to limit to the Big3 opusses.

So far, my favorite of the new recent crop of listening to the Bird catalog: Loriot No.1 (NOT the regular Erato version, but the LP with the blues grey and white cover shown earlier in this Thread) and de Oliviera on Naxos (not Ausbtbo??).

Quote from: Mandryka on January 19, 2016, 09:24:38 PM
In terms of composition, catalogue d'oiseaux is the most alien style, it's really difficult music. To appreciate it you need a detailed tourist guide of all the regions of France mentioned, OM's notes,,and a recording of the bird noises. Does it repay the effort?  - A toi de voir.


[/quote

I'm feeling that I can now hear those things without all the... lol... "bother"... (yes, it's like that!! lol)...

Quote from: Mandryka on January 24, 2016, 09:55:27 AM
http://d97bcfa3.cm-3-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl/scores/M/Messiaen,%20Olivier/Messiaen%20-%20Catalogue%20d'Oiseaux%20Book%203.pdf


The above commentary on La Chouette Houlotte emphasises scariness - words like terrifying, heart beating too quickly,
painful, lugubrious, and at the end the shriek of a murdered child. So I thought I'd kill some time searching for the most scary version on record.

There are tons of these things on spotify, but from this point of view (ie over the top melodrama) they were disappointing, apart from one pianist, two versions.

My vote goes to Loriod - both recordings seemed good, the short and the long.

I liked the one with the blue/grey/white LP. I guess that one's just available in DaBiGBoX? I really liked the tight acoustic for once.





Have you heard Carl-Axel D. on BIS?

Mandryka

Quote from: snyprrr on January 24, 2016, 02:13:23 PM

Have you heard Carl-Axel D. on BIS?

I've only heard Carl-Axel Dominique playing La Chouette Houlotte and I wasn't very impressed.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

EigenUser

Posted this in the listening thread, but I don't want it to get lost there:

A Messiaen work that I highly recommend is his Le Tombeau Resplendissant. It is an early orchestral work (even earlier than L'Ascension) that is unfortunately neglected. While he never removed it from his catalogue, Messiaen apparently never wanted it played or even discussed. The study score wasn't published until 1997 (5 years after his death). I have no idea why he felt this way. It is such an exciting and interesting work.
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

snyprrr

Quote from: Mandryka on January 25, 2016, 12:03:56 PM
What's that?

It seems there's an MP3 Naxos version with this deOliviera lady, but it doesn't seem to be an extant CD??? But, was it originally on LP??? This one is a bit shadowy...


I still haven't pulled on the Catalog yet... waiting on absolute final confirmation.... uh, and $$$, lol!!


I would've thought Roger Woodward would have recorded these.... how that would've sounded, I don't know...

EigenUser

Over the past year I spent some time orchestrating the 10th of the Vingt Regards. In case anyone is interested, here is a computer-generated recording: https://soundcloud.com/eigenuser/orchestration-olivier-messiaen-regard-de-lespirit-de-joie-from-vingt-regards

(Warning to Ken: it is unabashedly bloated)

I might add an optional part for an ondes-Martinot.

Piccolo
4 Flutes
3 Oboes
1 English Horn
3 Clarinets
2 Bass Clarinets

4 Bassoons
6 Horns in F
4 Trumpets in C
4 Trombones
1 Tuba

Celesta
Glockenspiel (either 1 keyboard glockenspiel or 2 mallet glockenspiels)
Solo Piano

2 Sets of Tubular Bells (one player each)

6 (?) Percussionists:
   Crash Cymbal
   Suspended Cymbal
   Chinese Cymbal
   Tam-tam
   Tambourine
   Maracas
   Triangle
   Woodblock (should be a "hollow" sound with a relatively low pitch, but not too low)
   Bass Drum

16 1st Violins
16 2nd Violins
14 Violas
14 Cellos
10 Double Basses

TOTAL = ~114 players
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

lescamil

Quote from: EigenUser on July 31, 2016, 05:07:46 PM
Over the past year I spent some time orchestrating the 10th of the Vingt Regards. In case anyone is interested, here is a computer-generated recording: https://soundcloud.com/eigenuser/orchestration-olivier-messiaen-regard-de-lespirit-de-joie-from-vingt-regards

(Warning to Ken: it is unabashedly bloated)

I might add an optional part for an ondes-Martinot.

Piccolo
4 Flutes
3 Oboes
1 English Horn
3 Clarinets
2 Bass Clarinets

4 Bassoons
6 Horns in F
4 Trumpets in C
4 Trombones
1 Tuba

Celesta
Glockenspiel (either 1 keyboard glockenspiel or 2 mallet glockenspiels)
Solo Piano

2 Sets of Tubular Bells (one player each)

6 (?) Percussionists:
   Crash Cymbal
   Suspended Cymbal
   Chinese Cymbal
   Tam-tam
   Tambourine
   Maracas
   Triangle
   Woodblock (should be a "hollow" sound with a relatively low pitch, but not too low)
   Bass Drum

16 1st Violins
16 2nd Violins
14 Violas
14 Cellos
10 Double Basses

TOTAL = ~114 players

Very interesting! Do you have a score for us to look at?
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Mandryka

#429
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq-nnAjLIxc&list=FLywAvBRNesAwgjv_zxLtxAA

The above is from le merle bleu complete with Messaien's commentary in French and some images of the landscape.

QuoteAu mois de juin. Le Roussillon, la Côte Vermeille. Près de Banyuls : cap l'Abeille, cap Rederis. Surplomb des falaises, au dessus de la mer bleu de prusse et bleu saphir. Cris des Martinets Noirs, clapotis de l'eau. Les caps s'allongent dans la mer comme des crocodiles. Dans une anfractuosité de rocher qui fait écho, le Merle Bleu chante. Il est d'un autre bleu que la mer : bleu violacé, ardoisé, satiné, bleu noir. Presque exotique, rappelant les musiques Balinaises, son chant se mêle au bruit des vagues. On entend aussi le Cochevis de Thékla qui papillonne dans le ciel au dessus des vignobles et du romarin. Les Goélands Argentés hurlent au loin sur la mer. Les falaises sont terribles. L'eau vient mourir à leur pied dans le souvenir du Merle Bleu.

June. In the Roussillon, the Côte Vermeille. Near Banyuls : cap l'Abeille, cap Rederis. Cliffs overhanging, above the prussian blue and sapphire blue sea. Cries of Black Swifts, lapping of the water. The cliffs stretch out into the sea like crocodiles. In a rock crevice which echoes the blue merle sings. It's another sort of blue than the sea, violet blue, slate blue, satin-like, black blue. Almost exotic, calliing to mind the music of Bali, its song becomes mixed with the noise of the waves. You can also hear the Cochevis de Thékla(?) which flutters through the sky above vines and rosemary bushes. The silver seagulls scream out from far away on the sea. The cliffs are terrible. The water comes to die at their feet in memory of the blue merle.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Androcles

Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on October 31, 2016, 07:25:51 PM
To this day, still one of the most important composers to me.  8)

Mark Morris describes him and Mahler as the two colossae of the century. Probably fairly accurate. To my mind, he is one of very few 'advanced' composers who might be able to reach a fairly broad cross-section of listeners. And most of the others I'n thinking of there wrote rather cinematic music.
And, moreover, it is art in its most general and comprehensive form that is here discussed, for the dialogue embraces everything connected with it, from its greatest object, the state, to its least, the embellishment of sensuous existence.

Cato

Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on October 31, 2016, 07:25:51 PM
To this day, still one of the most important composers to me.  8)

If you like Messaien, then you need to know the organ works of Louis Vierne, especially the later organ symphonies, although even the First Organ Symphony shows a tendency toward stretching harmonic possibilities.

Compare, e.g. parts of Messaien's Visions de l'Amen with Louis Vierne's Carillon of Westminster.

https://www.youtube.com/v/vvXddUK7I4k

https://www.youtube.com/v/ucZhSNVue0g

"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Maestro267

Currently listening to the Turangalîla-Symphonie. This remains easily my favourite Messiaen work, as much as I enjoy the others I've heard. It was the first work of his I read about (I love the idea that, with no limit to the commission to write the work, he chose to go all-out and write this enormous work). The eerie sound of the ondes Martenot, the incredible piano writing, and the way it interacts with the percussion, are some of my favourite aspects of the work.

Todd

I had the good fortune to attend a performance of the Turangalila Symphonie this past Saturday, with soloists Steven Osborne and Cynthia Millar, the same due that feature in the Hyperion recording.  I enjoy this work, but listen to it only rarely.  In person, it was almost overwhelming in scale and volume.  Not since an ear-splitting performance of DSCH 11 have I attended a classical concert so loud.  Many members of the audience covered their ears during crescendos and whenever the ondes Martenot really got cranking.  Orchestral playing was top flight - I'm not sure the Oregon Symphony could have pulled it off before Carlos Kalmar whipped them into shape - and both main soloists sounded swell.  (I'd love to hear Osborne play some of the Vingt Regards in person.)  It was an AV concert, with special animation and projections put together by local artists, which projected onto the entire front quarter of the auditorium during a couple movements.  Parts of the visuals were good, some less good, but the music was superb.  The opening Tristan Prelude/Liebestod was somewhat superfluous, but still lovely.  If ever I hear this work in person again, I may take earplugs, or sit way in the back.

I picked up the Hyperion release while in attendance, and plan to give it a spin in the next few weeks to see how it stacks up.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Archaic Torso of Apollo

Quote from: Todd on December 05, 2016, 10:08:28 AM
I had the good fortune to attend a performance of the Turangalila Symphonie this past Saturday, [...]

Thanks for the review. Was Kalmar conducting this one? Sounds like you are lucky to have him in Oregon - I certainly appreciate having him at Grant Park during the summer.

I've heard the piece twice, both times with the CSO (Eschenbach and Salonen respectively). The second time I sat behind the orchestra and caught the full fury of the CSO brass. There was a bit of a balance problem in that location, in that the Ondes Martenot was hard to hear.

Apart from covering their ears, did the audience like it?
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

Todd

Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 05, 2016, 10:25:27 AMWas Kalmar conducting this one?


Yes, and he displayed his usual precision and energy.  I would have been less enthusiastic about attending had it been a guest conductor, unless it was an A-lister. 

My seats had a balance problem favoring the ondes Martenot, with the speakers maybe 15-20 feet away.  The brass overpowered everything in the loudest passages, though.  There were some young kids in the audience, and I have to think the ondes Martenot drove them nuts. 



Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on December 05, 2016, 10:25:27 AMApart from covering their ears, did the audience like it?


It received one of the loudest and longest ovations I've witnessed.  I think only James DePreist's final concert and one of Hilary Hahn's performances compare.  There were ovations after several individual movements, as well. 
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Turner

#436
Quote from: snyprrr on February 01, 2016, 07:35:41 AM
It seems there's an MP3 Naxos version with this de Oliviera lady, but it doesn't seem to be an extant CD??? But, was it originally on LP??? This one is a bit shadowy...



Yes, it´s an old Vox Box LP set, which I have. An admirable label as regards expanding the repertoire, it was. I remember that recording as good and varied (the music needs that, to avoid monotony). I also own Hill and Loriod, and have heard some Ugorski samples. But it´s been a while since I heard it.

lescamil

Quote from: Todd on December 05, 2016, 10:08:28 AM
I had the good fortune to attend a performance of the Turangalila Symphonie this past Saturday, with soloists Steven Osborne and Cynthia Millar, the same due that feature in the Hyperion recording.  I enjoy this work, but listen to it only rarely.  In person, it was almost overwhelming in scale and volume.  Not since an ear-splitting performance of DSCH 11 have I attended a classical concert so loud.  Many members of the audience covered their ears during crescendos and whenever the ondes Martenot really got cranking.  Orchestral playing was top flight - I'm not sure the Oregon Symphony could have pulled it off before Carlos Kalmar whipped them into shape - and both main soloists sounded swell.  (I'd love to hear Osborne play some of the Vingt Regards in person.)  It was an AV concert, with special animation and projections put together by local artists, which projected onto the entire front quarter of the auditorium during a couple movements.  Parts of the visuals were good, some less good, but the music was superb.  The opening Tristan Prelude/Liebestod was somewhat superfluous, but still lovely.  If ever I hear this work in person again, I may take earplugs, or sit way in the back.

I picked up the Hyperion release while in attendance, and plan to give it a spin in the next few weeks to see how it stacks up.

I was here, too! I went to yesterday's performance. I picked up his Feldman and Crumb CD on Hyperion afterward and got it autographed. Had a chat with him and he said he won't do Des Canyons or any of the later pieces because they aren't to his taste. Shame. I think he'd do well with some of the 1950s and onward Messiaen. His recording of the Vingt Regards to me is the benchmark.
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PotashPie

This excellent book, and if you don't like Peter Hill's playing,maybe you'll like him as an author.


amw

Had a Messiaen Emergency today after discovering my sole recording of the Quatour pour la Fin de Temps to be not exactly enjoyable due to some surprising lapses in the performance (particularly intonation), not good sound quality, and some stylistic choices I wasn't convinced by. Surprising because the performers are none other than Vera Beths, Anner Bylsma, George Pieterson and Reinbert de Leeuw.

Anyway, using my highly scientific and exhaustively researched methods of randomly listening to a few seconds of various things I have chosen four recordings to trial as replacements:

Tashi Ensemble - RCA
Poppen/Fischer-Dieskau/Meyer/Loriod - EMI
Shaham/Wang/Meyer/Chung - DG
Bell/Isserlis/Collins/Mustonen - Decca

Trial results will be posted when I get around to it. The match will use a double elimination system with the grand prize recording receiving untold wealth and prestige. All of the musicians will be monitored for performance enhancing drugs and such.

Also feel free to post your thoughts if you have any.