The Lachenmann Lacuna

Started by not edward, January 03, 2008, 07:39:14 PM

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snyprrr

Quote from: nathanb on June 04, 2016, 04:50:51 PM
Off topic, but have you acquired the new one yet? It's a DVD, but has a rather unique work. I will probably acquire it soon, along with Mode's Czernowin opera.

I love Lachenmann to pieces, but I'm not particularly in the mood to try to explain why, right this moment.

And I'm not sure what qualifies as "ultra-modern", but I'd say the Kurtag-Cerha-Huber triad of 90 year old masters is the one teetering on the edge of tragedy in my mind. As for Rihm-Lachenmann-Sciarrino, only Sciarrino seems to be particularly interested in pushing forward still. Lachenmann composition has slowed, as the interview says, and Rihm has been coming down from a 40-year high for 10 years now. Well, I guess Sound As Will was a pretty cool piece.

Mode/Xenakis DVD? NEW??? Brand new???


Please do tell me about Lachenmann... I just haven't heard the piece that clicks (except String Quartets)... maybe the Opera, but... his Works List is really quite small...

nathanb

Quote from: snyprrr on June 05, 2016, 06:23:59 AM
Mode/Xenakis DVD? NEW??? Brand new???


Please do tell me about Lachenmann... I just haven't heard the piece that clicks (except String Quartets)... maybe the Opera, but... his Works List is really quite small...

Not sure what qualifies as brand new, but more recent than those you mentioned, yes. It's got two versions of a unique "game piece".

Lachenmann? Well, the thing is, you're talking to someone who is relatively illiterate in terms of talking about musicological matters. I'm more prone to tell you "Lachenmann's music makes my thighs warm", but here goes. I just love Lachenmann. His music's most central elements are so simple (music = sound, that's it, kbye) and yet, in execution, the music is so complex. I've heard his music compared to pointillism, and I have to say this analogy does it for me; his music takes on a character far greater than the sum of its parts. Also, when you listen to Lachenmann, you can't predict the kind of piece you're going to get just by checking the scoring; that cute little "Toccatina" for solo violin, is just about the last thing you'd expect from a solo violin piece. But the orchestral works. My god, the scale. The very words "for large orchestra" tend to get me excited, so you can imagine how I feel just thinking about a Lachenmann piece. Like Grisey and Stockhausen, he took his own personal idiom to Wagnerian proportions.

Some favorite pieces besides the opera and the quartets would be "Harmonica", "Pression", "Ausklang", "Schwankungen Am Rand", and so on. I'm sorry. I'm not very good at this. I can be somewhat literate about the absolute favorites of mine like Cage and Stockhausen, but the literacy quickly tapers off, in spite of how much I love Lachenmann, Furrer, and so on.

bhodges

Quote from: nathanb on June 06, 2016, 03:33:03 PM
Not sure what qualifies as brand new, but more recent than those you mentioned, yes. It's got two versions of a unique "game piece".

Lachenmann? Well, the thing is, you're talking to someone who is relatively illiterate in terms of talking about musicological matters. I'm more prone to tell you "Lachenmann's music makes my thighs warm", but here goes. I just love Lachenmann. His music's most central elements are so simple (music = sound, that's it, kbye) and yet, in execution, the music is so complex. I've heard his music compared to pointillism, and I have to say this analogy does it for me; his music takes on a character far greater than the sum of its parts. Also, when you listen to Lachenmann, you can't predict the kind of piece you're going to get just by checking the scoring; that cute little "Toccatina" for solo violin, is just about the last thing you'd expect from a solo violin piece. But the orchestral works. My god, the scale. The very words "for large orchestra" tend to get me excited, so you can imagine how I feel just thinking about a Lachenmann piece. Like Grisey and Stockhausen, he took his own personal idiom to Wagnerian proportions.

Some favorite pieces besides the opera and the quartets would be "Harmonica", "Pression", "Ausklang", "Schwankungen Am Rand", and so on. I'm sorry. I'm not very good at this. I can be somewhat literate about the absolute favorites of mine like Cage and Stockhausen, but the literacy quickly tapers off, in spite of how much I love Lachenmann, Furrer, and so on.

No reason to apologize about being "relatively illiterate in terms of talking about musicological matters." What matters is that you find his work so gripping (as I do). I've also heard Pression (wonderful), but haven't heard many of his large orchestral works. And though I didn't post anything about it here, in 2014 the JACK Quartet did an incredible, memorable night of all three string quartets, here at the Morgan Library. (The Morgan's small hall is acoustically quite marvelous, allowing even the tiniest details to be audible.) The sold-out audience was completely in his corner - absolutely quiet for about 90 minutes - and the ovations at the end were huge.

One composer I know described Lachenmann (perhaps hyperbolically, but still) as "the Beethoven of the late 20th century," and if I am hesitant to totally agree, I see what he's getting at. His innovations have influenced countless younger composers all over the world, and he is quite revered by many. What makes him among the greats (whether or not of Beethoven status) is his ability to explore the outer limits of musicianship, and create music unlike anyone else. Personally - and I'm not a Lachenmann scholar, either - I think he casts a very long shadow.

--Bruce

snyprrr

Quote from: Brewski on June 06, 2016, 07:28:56 PM
No reason to apologize about being "relatively illiterate in terms of talking about musicological matters." What matters is that you find his work so gripping (as I do). I've also heard Pression (wonderful), but haven't heard many of his large orchestral works. And though I didn't post anything about it here, in 2014 the JACK Quartet did an incredible, memorable night of all three string quartets, here at the Morgan Library. (The Morgan's small hall is acoustically quite marvelous, allowing even the tiniest details to be audible.) The sold-out audience was completely in his corner - absolutely quiet for about 90 minutes - and the ovations at the end were huge.

One composer I know described Lachenmann (perhaps hyperbolically, but still) as "the Beethoven of the late 20th century," and if I am hesitant to totally agree, I see what he's getting at. His innovations have influenced countless younger composers all over the world, and he is quite revered by many. What makes him among the greats (whether or not of Beethoven status) is his ability to explore the outer limits of musicianship, and create music unlike anyone else. Personally - and I'm not a Lachenmann scholar, either - I think he casts a very long shadow.

--Bruce

I did go through his Works List, and I was surprised that a lot of his stuff was mid-'60s, cause Ruzicka was writing this kind of stuff after 1970. And BAZ's influence is also strong.

So, what? Lachenmann DID invent the... uh... "scratch 'n' sniff" "UltraPointallism"???

Maybe I just take noise/sound-for-music for granted, so I don't hear much "special". I mean, yes, the Opera does use "frosty" and "cold" imagery to Lachrenmann's technique- his brittle sounds seem to work perfectly with the wintry theme. But elsewhere, the bits I've heard ... maybe he is too Beethovenian for me,- too self-willed. Maybe that's why he and Sciarrino have'had?? a row?? because Sciarrino seems to just let the sounds be themselves, whereas Lachenmann has to make them mean something? I don't need drama along with my wacky sounds. Wacky sounds work just fine by themselves... but... ok... I get it...

But... 'Ausklang' did seem to have a slight longeur?

Quote from: nathanb on June 06, 2016, 03:33:03 PM
Not sure what qualifies as brand new, but more recent than those you mentioned, yes. It's got two versions of a unique "game piece".

Lachenmann? Well, the thing is, you're talking to someone who is relatively illiterate in terms of talking about musicological matters. I'm more prone to tell you "Lachenmann's music makes my thighs warm", but here goes. I just love Lachenmann. His music's most central elements are so simple (music = sound, that's it, kbye) and yet, in execution, the music is so complex. I've heard his music compared to pointillism, and I have to say this analogy does it for me; his music takes on a character far greater than the sum of its parts. Also, when you listen to Lachenmann, you can't predict the kind of piece you're going to get just by checking the scoring; that cute little "Toccatina" for solo violin, is just about the last thing you'd expect from a solo violin piece. But the orchestral works. My god, the scale. The very words "for large orchestra" tend to get me excited, so you can imagine how I feel just thinking about a Lachenmann piece. Like Grisey and Stockhausen, he took his own personal idiom to Wagnerian proportions.

Some favorite pieces besides the opera and the quartets would be "Harmonica", "Pression", "Ausklang", "Schwankungen Am Rand", and so on. I'm sorry. I'm not very good at this. I can be somewhat literate about the absolute favorites of mine like Cage and Stockhausen, but the literacy quickly tapers off, in spite of how much I love Lachenmann, Furrer, and so on.

Now, 'Pression' is the Clarinet Trio, right? Who's tops here?

And sure,- any tuba concerto's gotta be fun... and I still have to try that ECM '...Rand' disc...


But, all the Kairos discs didn't do much for me, sampling,...


Anyhow, I should just say, "Thanks just more Lachenmann for you guys!" I don't neeeeeeeed to become obsessed with a potential money pit right now, oy vey!!



I just find his Works List so small......

nathanb

On one hand, your assessment is fair, unlike assessments not actually based on the music.

On the other hand, the only people who consistently reject the "maybe listen more?" suggestion tend to be the people in complete opposition to contemporary music in general, so... maybe listen more? :)

not edward

Quote from: snyprrr on June 06, 2016, 09:11:20 PM
I did go through his Works List, and I was surprised that a lot of his stuff was mid-'60s, cause Ruzicka was writing this kind of stuff after 1970. And BAZ's influence is also strong.
I think you can roughly fit mature Lachenmann into two phases: one from the mid-60s to mid-70s where he's staking out the areas he's working in, and another from the mid-70s on, beginning with Accanto, where he's now applying what he discovered in the previous phase to the history of Germanic art music.

I wonder if there's going to be any more music from him. The concerto for eight horns is so many years overdue now.
"I don't at all mind actively disliking a piece of contemporary music, but in order to feel happy about it I must consciously understand why I dislike it. Otherwise it remains in my mind as unfinished business."
-- Aaron Copland, The Pleasures of Music

snyprrr

Quote from: nathanb on June 07, 2016, 07:00:05 PM
On one hand, your assessment is fair, unlike assessments not actually based on the music.

On the other hand, the only people who consistently reject the "maybe listen more?" suggestion tend to be the people in complete opposition to contemporary music in general, so... maybe listen more? :)

Last Night's Speed Listening:


1) '...und Rand'

OK, finally went through this one, which would have been the HL I would have already gotten years ago if it weren't still so expensive. So, - here's a disclaimer- when I hear works such as this, all I can ever "see" is the large room they are recording in. And, here, it's a pretty nice big room. So, when I hear things like this, I can't "see" the fantastical imagery of my mind's invention, all I see is actual musicians sitting in a hall playing. And, frankly, somehow, this music came off somewhat "jazzy".

Maybe I've grown up with non-traditional playing techniques to the point where there is no real thrill from hearing this piece. I'm like, OK, I've already heard his disciples for three decades, now the master isn't really doing it for me. All I'm hearing is musicians playing their instruments oddly, like an uber-serious Kagel.

So, I'm kind of glad the disc hasn't been cheaper... errrrrrr...


2) 'Pression'

I thought it was the Clarinet Trio, but, no, it's the infamous cello piece,... which i'd never heard.

Oy vey- I thought, Oh, you mean that piece I played into a tape recorder way back when- you mean someone actually wrote that in the '60s? LOL!

Yea, again, I've lived THROUGH this piece, I didn't really even need to hear it. I did enjoy the shorter, 7:30 performance rather than the lazier 12:30 performance (on YT). This kind of music alwaaays needs to be played at its quickest. Anyway, I just can't be a cheerleader for this stuff anymore- there are just so many other ways of "dealing" with the cello. Here i think Xenakis is head and antlers above the Germans in terms of going towards the brink.

Which leads us to...


3) 'Toccatina'


HAAAATED IT!!!!!!!!

Somewhat infuriating- again, sounds like something I wanked into a tape recorder once... sure, I'm not that "precise", but... puh-leeze, no wonder Europe is being cleansed with a muslim horde- it's because of works like this?!?!?!?! There are so many better ways to spend five minutes on a violin. Come on.


4) ALLEGRO SOSTENUTO

OK, I liked this one from the get go. Everything I wanted to hear from Helmut was here. I'll just leave it to that. Great stuff!!!


5) HARMONICA
     AIR

I liked both of these concertos- more stuff happening... fun... 'nuff said...







Well, that was last night. It just seems I bring a lot of baggage to my Lachenmann listening, and with him I feel the right to be extremely picky as to what I'll soak in. I won't let him lecture and hector me- which is a feeling I try not to encourage (that he's just being a wanker and trying to piss me off with rude sounds).

No, I definitely have a Lachenmann "problem", even though there are pieces I like (SQs, Opera, others)


oops, late for work...

5against4

#87
Quote from: edward on December 21, 2015, 08:31:08 AM
Two new Lachenmann releases from Neos... somewhat disappointingly low playing time and nothing previously unrecorded, but Aimard in Ausklang sounds like a treat.

Ausklang - Aimard, SOBR, Nott
Zwei Gefühle / Schreiben - Lachenmann, SOBR, Eötvös / Mälkki

I finally got round to reviewing these two albums today, having had them staring at me increasingly accusingly for the last couple of months.
Both highly recommended (review here) - Aimard is indeed a treat in Ausklang, although the piece has some issues concerning its duration. But Zwei Gefühle and Schreiben both sound magnificent, really vivid and immersive performances.

It's a fair comment what you say about running time, although i'm personally of the view that anything above 40 minutes constitutes a decent album. Whether that album is worth paying £15+ for, is another question entirely...

nathanb

Thanks for the review, I haven't gotten those two yet because I have those works, but it's becoming inevitable just because of the label/series/performers/etc....

5against4

Quote from: nathanb on June 12, 2016, 06:23:04 AM
Thanks for the review, I haven't gotten those two yet because I have those works, but it's becoming inevitable just because of the label/series/performers/etc....

NEOS is a remarkable label, the rate at which they put out such great music/performances is somewhat amazing. i have two more of their recent releases awaiting my attention and more to come... How do they do it?

snyprrr

Quote from: 5against4 on June 12, 2016, 06:32:00 AM
NEOS is a remarkable label, the rate at which they put out such great music/performances is somewhat amazing. i have two more of their recent releases awaiting my attention and more to come... How do they do it?

wish they'd give us some unrecorded/neglected Xenakis   :(

5against4

Quote from: snyprrr on June 12, 2016, 06:41:03 AM
wish they'd give us some unrecorded/neglected Xenakis   :(
Well, they've included the German premiere of Xenakis' ST/4-1,080262 for string quartet on their latest box set, featuring recordings from throughout the history of Darmstadt. Deets here. There'll be some Xenakis on the next volume as well.

nathanb

While we're briefly off-topic with the non-Lachenmann NEOS commentary, can either of you tell me how their Blu-Ray audio format works? It's specifically used for the ContactoTango disc. Can it at least be ripped to a computer or is it completely unrecognizable to all things besides Blu-Ray?

5against4

Quote from: nathanb on June 12, 2016, 01:12:29 PM
While we're briefly off-topic with the non-Lachenmann NEOS commentary, can either of you tell me how their Blu-Ray audio format works? It's specifically used for the ContactoTango disc. Can it at least be ripped to a computer or is it completely unrecognizable to all things besides Blu-Ray?
It's simply the Blu-Ray equivalent of DVD Audio, in this case containing high-resolution (96 kHz/24 Bit) audio files of the music, in both stereo and surround versions. With the right software it could be ripped/copied to your computer, but you'd obviously need a Blu-Ray drive to do it.

snyprrr

Quote from: 5against4 on June 12, 2016, 06:32:00 AM
NEOS is a remarkable label, the rate at which they put out such great music/performances is somewhat amazing. i have two more of their recent releases awaiting my attention and more to come... How do they do it?

So, what will convince of Lachenmann, in your view? How do you come him with Sciarrino? Don't they have a feud? ... with Rihm also?...lol...

CRCulver

Anyone who doesn't get Lachenmann, but only knows his work from CD recordings, might want to check out the large amount of videos now available on YouTube, or Wergo's Lachenmann DVD. So much of his unusual instrumental writing is visual, so you really need a visual medium to understand what he's doing instead of those anonymous rustlings on a CD.

nodogen


ComposerOfAvantGarde

Does anyone have any opinions on which is the best recordings of the string quartets?

Also, listening to Ausklang right now.

I am curious to learn more about his compositional process actually........................

Mandryka

I'd  be very interested to hear comments on the Diotima Quartet's recording of the 2nd, which I'm thinking of buying,
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

Quote from: jessop on November 18, 2017, 05:09:24 PM
Does anyone have any opinions on which is the best recordings of the string quartets?



I do like what Arditti do, the timbres, the silences, the recording perspective, the way they build and release tension.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen