Sibelius' tricky 7th symphony

Started by O Delvig, January 04, 2008, 06:09:16 AM

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Brian

Wow, M. Thank you for those two posts - they really do make more sense of the work. And now I understand, in the context of the last four bars, why exactly that recurring trombone solo is so vitally, vitally important. What a magnificent symphony.  8) Time to listen again.

head-case

Quote from: M forever on January 06, 2008, 03:51:32 PM
It is very important to underline that context, but the d-c resolution is often drowned out, despite the very clear dynamic indications. The root note c gets approached here from both sides, d-c, and then b-c, and reaffirmed both times. Simon Rattle said it was "like a huge shrug finally opening", and that's one way to look at it, I guess. I see it more as an affirmative statement. The ending should really be as written, not drawn out and reinforced by brass, but played with a detemind crescendo and a musical ! on the last c.
BTW, Koussevitzky also put the trumpet in there, and a few other conductors, too. Mravinsky actually has the horns play the b-c.

I happened to listen to Karajan's 1964 recording of this piece, and I guess you could consider him guilty of this failure to follow Sibelius' dynamic indications to the letter.  However, the results are absolutely glorious.  I am not convinced by the argument that the conductor failed to follow the composers instructions and made it sound "better than it is supposed to sound."  Especially since when Sibelius wrote this piece he wasn't a conductor/composer perfecting the orchestration of his pieces on the podium in front of the world's great orchestras, he was a reclusive alcoholic.

To step back for a minute, this is a 24 minute expanse of music without clear divisions into movements, in which a fairly narrow range of motifs is used to generate a compelling succession of musical impressions.  This sort of construction is always in danger of turning into mush, but I remember thinking that Sibelius had pulled it of superbly, never loosing direction, you always feel you know where the points of the musical compass are.  Then I listened to Blomstedt's San Francisco Symphony recording a few months back: aimlessly meandering mush.  How could Sibelius fail me like this?  Today, however, I listened to Karajan's 1964 recording, and once again the symphony makes sense to me.  Karajan's control of sound quality, phrasing, timbre, whatever magic he did, holds it together for me.  Now, I'm compelled to admit that in the last four bars the b-c is louder than the d-c, the brass doesn't decrescendo that much, but when it's over I think Sibelius' intention of depicting a great relief of strain is held to, and I feel like I've listened to something special.

longears

Quote from: head-case on January 13, 2008, 04:14:59 PM
when Sibelius wrote this piece he wasn't a conductor/composer perfecting the orchestration of his pieces on the podium in front of the world's great orchestras....
Actually, he was--he had the benefit of having the predecessor of the HPO at his disposal to help work out the details of his orchestration.

QuoteThen I listened to Blomstedt's San Francisco Symphony recording a few months back: aimlessly meandering mush. 
There must be something wrong with your playback equipment, unless these forces made two recordings of the 7th.

M forever

Quote from: head-case on January 13, 2008, 04:14:59 PM
Especially since when Sibelius wrote this piece he wasn't a conductor/composer perfecting the orchestration of his pieces on the podium in front of the world's great orchestras, he was a reclusive alcoholic.

Bullshit. Please don't waste our time. Thanks.

head-case

Quote from: longears on January 13, 2008, 04:22:58 PM
There must be something wrong with your playback equipment, unless these forces made two recordings of the 7th.
I understand that many people like this recording, but I didn't find it compelling, despite liking Blomstedt/SFO in other repertoire.

eyeresist

I've been getting into the 7th recently, after leaving Sibelius alone for a couple of years. At that time, I felt I'd gone as far as I could go with his music - the great melodism, orchestral colour, atmosphere. So I left it alone. Now I'm back and discovering new depths. That's the best kind of music, I think - both immediately appealing and capable of sustaining long-term interest.

Anyway, I've listened to Maazel, Berglund/Helsinki, Collins, and I'll have to go back to Ashkenazy and Barbirolli soon. My overall impression is - my God, it's a strange piece of music. It's tonal and melodic, but the rhetoric of it is unique. At the end I usually have a ? over my head. But I think I've come to some understanding of the ending.

Quote from: M forever on January 06, 2008, 03:51:32 PM
About the ending: I don't think it's that mysterious or puzzling. I think it is actually pretty easy to "understand", maybe not that easy to "explain" though. The root tonality of Sibelius' last symphony is a statement in itself. C major, the "simplest" most "basic" of all tonalities, and it gets reaffirmed by elements floating through the symphonic soundscape all the time, no matter how complex and complicated the music gets, no matter how anguished and conflict-ridden, at the end the music returns to its "roots" and we experience the kind of inner peace and security that only comes from experiencing conflicts and storms, but riding them out and coming out stronger on the other side.
I totally disagree with this. The music may return to the home key, but it's not comforting, it's stark and hopeless. The music stops because it can't go on.

M forever

Quote from: eyeresist on March 06, 2008, 07:53:23 PM
I totally disagree with this. The music may return to the home key, but it's not comforting, it's stark and hopeless. The music stops because it can't go on.

When you come to that point in life, you don't need "comfort" or "hope" anymore. Then what you experience in this stage in your life as "stark" is just clarity. Like the M said,

Quote from: M forever on January 06, 2008, 03:51:32 PM
at the end the music returns to its "roots" and we experience the kind of inner peace and security that only comes from experiencing conflicts and storms, but riding them out and coming out stronger on the other side.

You may not be able to understand that at this point, but maybe later you will. Or maybe not. Like you said, this music is very complex and as we grow as persons, we discover new sides to it all the time. Or maybe I am seeing it wrong at this time and I will see it different later. There is no way of telling. In any case, that is where I am at right now, in general and in my reaction to this music. Funny that you mention that at this point in time. I just experienced one of the most severe disappointments of my whole life a few weeks ago (and yes, before you ask, it had to do with a girl...) and it hurt so much I wanted to die, but that passed and was replaced by exactly the feeling I am describing above after a while...I didn't think of this music then, but now that you mention it, it seems to fit that feeling perfectly. Hmmm...

Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich

Quote from: spaghetti on January 04, 2008, 06:09:16 AMI have three recordings of this symphony - Vanska's, Jarvi's on DG, and Blomstedt's, and while they are all good, they all seem to have something missing. Because of that I feel like I can't really appreciate this work that Sibelius felt was the culmination of his symphonic cycle.
1. My vote goes for Blomsted/SFSO
2. Sibelius was wrong. Tapiola is the culmination! Without any doubt! (on my side ;))

M forever

Tapiola is not a symphony. Neither in name, nor musically, nor formally, nor conceptually. So, it may stand alongside the 7th symphony as a musical achievement, but it's not an either/or question.

J.Z. Herrenberg

Quote from: M forever on March 06, 2008, 09:49:38 PM
When you come to that point in life, you don't need "comfort" or "hope" anymore. Then what you experience in this stage in your life as "stark" is just clarity. Like the M said,

You may not be able to understand that at this point, but maybe later you will. Or maybe not. Like you said, this music is very complex and as we grow as persons, we discover new sides to it all the time. Or maybe I am seeing it wrong at this time and I will see it different later. There is no way of telling. In any case, that is where I am at right now, in general and in my reaction to this music. Funny that you mention that at this point in time. I just experienced one of the most severe disappointments of my whole life a few weeks ago (and yes, before you ask, it had to do with a girl...) and it hurt so much I wanted to die, but that passed and was replaced by exactly the feeling I am describing above after a while...I didn't think of this music then, but now that you mention it, it seems to fit that feeling perfectly. Hmmm...

I agree. Bruised and battered the music reaches the end, but unbroken.
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich

Quote from: M forever on March 06, 2008, 10:32:54 PMTapiola is not a symphony. Neither in name, nor musically, nor formally, nor conceptually. So, it may stand alongside the 7th symphony as a musical achievement, but it's not an either/or question.
True, but I (mis)interpreted "symphonic cycle" as "stuff for a big orchestra AND lasts for about 20 minutes+" :)

vandermolen

I like the Beecham, newly reissued on EMI Great Recordings series.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

eyeresist

Thanks for responding! Maybe I was quite explicit enough about my feelings about the ending - to me it sounds like the last thing you think before you top yourself (not that I'd know, obviously). Especially if, as you pointed out, the brass dies away as it should.
But of course this may change. This music is very enigmatic stuff....

Sorry to hear about your recent problems - perhaps Sibelius is the answer to everything!

Quote from: M forever on March 06, 2008, 09:49:38 PM
When you come to that point in life, you don't need "comfort" or "hope" anymore. Then what you experience in this stage in your life as "stark" is just clarity. Like the M said,

You may not be able to understand that at this point, but maybe later you will. Or maybe not. Like you said, this music is very complex and as we grow as persons, we discover new sides to it all the time. Or maybe I am seeing it wrong at this time and I will see it different later. There is no way of telling. In any case, that is where I am at right now, in general and in my reaction to this music. Funny that you mention that at this point in time. I just experienced one of the most severe disappointments of my whole life a few weeks ago (and yes, before you ask, it had to do with a girl...) and it hurt so much I wanted to die, but that passed and was replaced by exactly the feeling I am describing above after a while...I didn't think of this music then, but now that you mention it, it seems to fit that feeling perfectly. Hmmm...

M forever

Quote from: eyeresist on March 07, 2008, 12:26:48 AM
Sorry to hear about your recent problems - perhaps Sibelius is the answer to everything!

Well, Sibelius is certainly a composer with a lot of "depth" who has a lot to say about life. How someone can do that in music is extremely hard to understand, but a lot of people do seem to get the "message" and experience the music very deeply. It does seem to "say" a lot about important things in life. Thanks for your sympathy, BTW, I may have exaggerated a little bit, it wasn't quite *that* bad, but the past 4-5 months were still a very bad and difficult time for me. I had what looked like a very good and very well paid job with lots of priviledges and I was nicely set in my living situation in San Diego, but there was a lot of really stupid shit going on and to preserve my personal integrity, I just had to quit my job, I simply had no other choice even though since I am in the US on a work visa tied to the employer, that pretty much meant that by giving them my notice, I didn't just quit one job and had to look for another one, it pretty much meant that I would have to go back to the Old World. Which was fine for me, except a person very dear to me asked me to stay and so I withdrew my notice and my ex-boss and some people there were quite happy that I wanted to stay (but only because they needed me and my experience, of course), but that didn't mean that the problems I had with my company vanished, on the contrary, it was even more difficult and I basically crawled through hell trying to sort everything out when more or less totally out of the blue, I got a very interesting job offer from a company in Boston which can be considered the #1 company in my field (cinema technology) in the US and one of the best in the world. But it still wasn't an easy decision to quit my job - again -, especially because it was unclear if the paperwork requirements - work visa, filing for a Green Card before certain deadlines would run out - could actually be met within the short time that was left because of those deadlines. And because of that very dear to me person. Plus I knew of that company, but I didn't really know the people from the point of view of working for them, so it was a very difficult decision to make, and it also obviously involved decamping and moving to Boston, leaving behind everything I had built up in California over 5 years, a lot of good friends, the very good orchestra I played in, everything, and heading off into an uncertain future. But I did it anyway, as much nerves as it cost me and as much stress as it was, because I thought it was the more difficult, but ultimately, the better decision. After leaving everything behind and moving across the entire continent, I found myself in a completely new and very challenging situation. It took a while to find a nice place to live and I started working full time instantly, staying in a hotel in a completely new environment with none of my friends and familiar elements around me, that was extremely difficult. And then on top of all that, that very severe personal disappointment - those were some of M's loneliest and most bitter times. I just didn't see any reason anymore to go on with all that. But M got through that and things look like they will work out really well. That is exactly the feeling I described. Sometimes in life, you have to go through very difficult times and make some very drastic decisions and sacrifices and take some big risks, and even though you get to a point at which you just can't see any reason to go on anymore with all that, you may come out better on the other end. But where do we find the energy and determination for all that? Music certainly can be one source of energy, and for me personally, Sibelius' deep and very dignified music is such an essential source of energy and inspiration.

J.Z. Herrenberg

Thank you for giving us your 'back story', M. I recognize a lot, both the difficult decisions you sometimes have to make to remain true to yourself and the inspiration to be drawn from great music.

I hope you'll eventually find your new life in Boston rich and rewarding.

Johan
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

DarkAngel

I am not big fan of Sibelius 7th, but the Maazel/VPO seems as good as any I have heard.
The Decca Legends CD "O" lists is fine way to obtain it, but the entire Maazel Sibelius boxset is so cheap used best to just go ahead and get that.

PerfectWagnerite

Quote from: M forever on March 07, 2008, 10:40:51 PM
- those were some of M's loneliest and most bitter times. I just didn't see any reason anymore to go on with all that. But M got through that and things look like they will work out really well. That is exactly the feeling I described. Sometimes in life, you have to go through very difficult times and make some very drastic decisions and sacrifices and take some big risks, and even though you get to a point at which you just can't see any reason to go on anymore with all that, you may come out better on the other end.
Sorry to hear that man. I thought you were all happy going to Boston and all. But one thing about America, when you got talent (and you certainly do) things will work out.

I find the same things in Sibelius you do also. Even in the anguished 4th symphony there is uplift and hope at the end.

Well anyway I think there are enough whipping boys on the board to make you feel better ;D

eyeresist

Quote from: M forever on March 07, 2008, 10:40:51 PM
That is exactly the feeling I described. Sometimes in life, you have to go through very difficult times and make some very drastic decisions and sacrifices and take some big risks, and even though you get to a point at which you just can't see any reason to go on anymore with all that, you may come out better on the other end. But where do we find the energy and determination for all that? Music certainly can be one source of energy, and for me personally, Sibelius' deep and very dignified music is such an essential source of energy and inspiration.
You've converted me!

BorisG

Quote from: vandermolen on January 04, 2008, 08:22:32 AM
Beecham's EMI recording is my favourite. Koussevitsy's is also a fine interpretation. I have also felt that Colin Davis was very overrated as a Sibelius conductor. The Karajan set, mentioned above, is very good and Maazel's Decca recording is fine.

I like the Beecham too.

snyprrr

#59
This ought to be interesting...

The issue of "timings" has come up recently, and I have always maintained that Sibelius' 7 is the one piece of music, for me, that has to be played as quickly as possible or it all starts to drag.

The only...only version I have ever heard that hits the nail is the original Koussevetsky, with maybe... maybe Boult as a close second.

My contention is that this sym. needs to hover very close to the 19min. mark as per the Kouss. and Boult recs., and I have heard no other recording... and I've heard a few, and yes, it's been a long while... but I've heard no one else come close. Then there's Bernstein...

So, am I nutz?