Mahler symphonies - help

[Lethevich]

And for truly boring you could always try Haitink's second aborted cycle with BPO on Philips.

Hehehe, this one sounds fun I rather liked Haitink's CSO recording of the 6th, but I found that to be a bit more intense than I usually expect from him. His earlier recordings do sound like good picks, and should be very easy to track down.

It is speculating quite miserably, but from how Abbado performs Bruckner, his Mahler might indeed be just the ticket.

[Sergeant Rock]

He does tend to be viewed as lukewarm in these works doesn't he?

Lukewarm...exactly. Or Mahler-lite. Very few Mahlerians consider this a favorite set (M being an exception, if I remember correctly) though worth hearing for the orchestra's unique sound (those famous Czech woodwinds).

Sarge

[Karl Henning]

As non-neurotic as it gets.

Flying in the face of the composer's preference, eh, Sarge? ; )

[Sergeant Rock]

It is speculating quite miserably, but from how Abbado performs Bruckner, his Mahler might indeed be just the ticket.

It just shows how little I think of Abbado's Mahler that he didn't even pop into my head when mulling over your request..although he fits the bill    I think you'd enjoy Neumann more, though. And of course if you want unhurried...well, don't overlook Klemperer's Seventh 

Sarge

[Lethevich]

It just shows how little I think of Abbado's Mahler that he didn't even pop into my head when mulling over your request..although he fits the bill    I think you'd enjoy Neumann more, though.

I was going to play through the whole Abbado/CSO/6, but this tipped me into comparing first movements with Neumann. It's actually hilariously classical, I love it. Neumann seems to intentionally perk up a few of the rhythms, and while he doesn't downplay the crescendos or the sweeping string parts, they feel imbued with less tension than I am used to hearing in the work. The recording itself also seems to take the edge off of some of the impacts - at 5'50, a cymbal clash crescendo has nowhere near the visceral feel that I was expecting. The brass is also noticably less strident than I might have expected to hear as well.

Neumann definitely offers less of a powerful take than Abbado in this movement, but both share a non-maximalist approach. Abbado being more muscular and virtuoso, yet restrained. Neumann verges on the puckish - not quite the straight take I was expecting given his usual conducting style (very solid, very "normal").

[madaboutmahler]

It just shows how little I think of Abbado's Mahler that he didn't even pop into my head when mulling over your request..
Sarge

I think I'm with Sarge concerning Abbado. I often find his Mahler lacking something that extra bit special, which conductors such as Bernstein and Solti give it. Really beggining to enjoy Tilson Thomas' Mahler as well!

[Sergeant Rock]

Neumann definitely offers less of a powerful take than Abbado in this movement, but both share a non-maximalist approach. Abbado being more muscular and virtuoso, yet restrained. Neumann verges on the puckish....

Sara, you've found the perfect adjective for Neumann's first movement. Puckish! It certainly is. And this is one performance I didn't have to scream, More cowbell! The cows are quite upfront and realistic sounding. Not atmospheric perhaps (no mist here) but certainly present and accounted for    For some reason I enjoyed it far more today than I have in the past. Even the anti-climactic coda didn't bother me this time; it fits Neumann's emotionally neutral, undemonstrative concept.

sarge

[mc ukrneal]

I think I'm with Sarge concerning Abbado. I often find his Mahler lacking something that extra bit special, which conductors such as Bernstein and Solti give it. Really beggining to enjoy Tilson Thomas' Mahler as well!

I wouldn't call myself a Mahlerite just yet (although 3-4 versions of several symphonies does seem to imply I am breaking my own rule!), but I enjoy the Abbado approach in some symphonies precisely due its more 'balanced' approach. The neurotic Mahler of Bernstein, for example, has yet to really grab me (though I can see why some would like it). Bertini seems to have more in common with Abbado, for example, than Bernstein. I really enjoy several of the recent Abbado/Lucerne releases.

[madaboutmahler]

I wouldn't call myself a Mahlerite just yet (although 3-4 versions of several symphonies does seem to imply I am breaking my own rule!), but I enjoy the Abbado approach in some symphonies precisely due its more 'balanced' approach. The neurotic Mahler of Bernstein, for example, has yet to really grab me (though I can see why some would like it). Bertini seems to have more in common with Abbado, for example, than Bernstein. I really enjoy several of the recent Abbado/Lucerne releases.

Yes, I can understand what you mean when you call Abbado balanced. His performances are certainly excellent - just lacking that extra bit of Mahler magic!
Do you know the Solti? One of my favourite overall sets. It is really hard to find a set which is all perfect, with excellent performances of ALL the symphonies. I am still searching, I only have around 8 Mahler cycles at the moment, so still have quite a few to look through!

[DavidRoss]

I am currently freaking out over Tilson Thomas' Mahler with the SFSO. Either I suddenly like Mahler, or this approach suits me, so does anybody else know of more recordings along these lines?

Ideally I am looking for something that a seasoned Mahlerian would either find boring or feel it to be underplaying or smoothing out what they tend to admire in the music (be it the mood swings, the tension and catharsis being ratcheted up an infinitesimal amount). I am especially looking for these qualities in the later works, as I imagine that a lighter 1st or 4th would be quite easy to do, but even the 9th sounds quite listenable coming from MTT. Ideal qualities: unhurried, unharried, balanced.

Dumb question I know n__n

Zing! go my heartstrings, Sara.    I see others have suggested Abbado already.  I'm surprised none have mentioned Bernstein, specifically the later cycle on DGG, available now in a ridiculously cheap new boxset http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0033QC0WY/sr=8-1/qid=1322683743/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&qid=1322683743&sr=8-1&seller= 

Personally I don't think anyone else quite gets it like MTT & San Francisco. 

[kishnevi]

For a non neurotic Ninth, I'd would suggest Zinman, although that suggestion wouldn't apply to his entire cycle.

[DavidRoss]

Hehehe, this one sounds fun I rather liked Haitink's CSO recording of the 6th, but I found that to be a bit more intense than I usually expect from him. His earlier recordings do sound like good picks, and should be very easy to track down.

It is speculating quite miserably, but from how Abbado performs Bruckner, his Mahler might indeed be just the ticket.

Many of Abbado's Lucerne Mahler performances are on youtube

[Lethevich]

Bernstein, specifically the later cycle on DGG

Hmm, I avoided the first cycle like the plague, but I was under the impression that the second was just as extreme, but in a different direction - kind of slow and intense?

Would the Abbado Lucerne recordings be just as different from the Berlin remakes, as those were to his first mixed orchestra cycle? Or are they more of a refinement?

[Sergeant Rock]

Hmm, I avoided the first cycle like the plague, but I was under the impression that the second was just as extreme, but in a different direction - kind of slow and intense?

David must not realize what you're looking for in a Mahler performance. That DG Bernstein is the very definition of OTT.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

Mahler's 6th. I never liked this piece before, maybe I'll get the 5th next and try to get past that silly opening (if I can deal with the opening of Havergal Brian's 7th, this should be no problem).

Silly? Oh my... That trumpet theme is the Austrian military's Generalmarsch, used not only by Mahler but Haydn in the second movement of his 100th (the call to "battle" before all hell breaks loose...well, Classically restrained hell anyway  ); the same theme used by Mendelssohn in his funeral march (Op.62/3 Songs without Words). So Mahler is part of a grand tradition. The opening also comes from Mahler's memory of childhood, living near an army barracks, the death of six infant siblings (in this movement he quotes his own Kindertotenlieder). So we have a triumphant military call to arms dissolving almost instantly into a funeral march of utter despair. Silly? It's not an adjective I'd use to describe the music. Neumann's Czech Fifth I recommend for you. He downplays the hysteria.

I can forgive you for thinking the Brian Seventh opening "silly." It does have an over-the-top Englishness about it, an almost imperialist swagger that's discredited in some (most?) British minds today. I don't hear it that way, though, and I doubt Brian intended it so. But like some Elgar, I can understand how it could be hard to swallow.

Sarge

[Lethevich]

With the opening of Brian's 7th I imagine him (or another person) dressed in a powdered wig and tights running at warp speed around a medieval German town, being tasked with various fetch-and-carry jobs. It's quite specific, but I feel that best represents the musical content and argument.

I hadn't noticed any familiarity with the theme Mahler uses, other than it feels awkwardly nervous and doodly each time I listen - perhaps I am mixing it up with the music that follows, or I just didn't get it and will next time I give it a try.

[Sergeant Rock]

With the opening of Brian's 7th I imagine him (or another person) dressed in a powdered wig and tights running at warp speed around a medieval German town, being tasked with various fetch-and-carry jobs. It's quite specific...

No shit!    I confess, when hearing that opening, those images have never popped into my head. I hope I can continue to keep them out 

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

I hadn't noticed any familiarity with the theme Mahler uses, other than it feels awkwardly nervous...

That's not a description I'd disagree with. That bugle call (which the Haydn/Mendelssohn/Mahler theme is based on) does have a nervous character to it. I hope you begin to hear it differently...I mean more than just nervous and doodly. But I realize that knowing the theme's provenance, and what it meant to Mahler, won't necessarily make it more understandable and appealing to you. I hope it does, but... Well, we Mahlerites will continue to pray for you 

Sarge

[DavidRoss]

David must not realize what you're looking for in a Mahler performance. That DG Bernstein is the very definition of OTT.

Sara,

Hmm, I avoided the first cycle like the plague, but I was under the impression that the second was just as extreme, but in a different direction - kind of slow and intense?

Would the Abbado Lucerne recordings be just as different from the Berlin remakes, as those were to his first mixed orchestra cycle? Or are they more of a refinement?

(1) Slow & intense is generally right for Lenny's DGG Mahler, I'd say. A great cycle at a bargain price these days.
(2) I've not heard all of Abbado's Lucerne performances, but the character of those I have heard is pretty consistent with his BP set (all of which I've not heard, either).

I just checked Spotify. They have the Lenny DGG set. (I searched "Mahler Bernstein.") Start with the first--this RCO performance is rightly on everyone's favorites list.  Then to try his most extreme, listen to the fifth.

And while checking Spotify, I saw that they also have at least some of Sinopoli's Mahler recordings. Well worth a try.

[Sergeant Rock]

Sara, (1) Slow & intense is generally right for Lenny's DGG Mahler, I'd say. A great cycle at a bargain price these days.

Extreme, in either direction, is not what she's looking for in Mahler. I think    (I'm sure she'll clarify if clarification is needed.)

Ideally I am looking for something that a seasoned Mahlerian would either find boring or feel it to be underplaying or smoothing out what they tend to admire in the music (be it the mood swings, the tension and catharsis being ratcheted up an infinitesimal amount). Ideal qualities: unhurried, unharried, balanced.

While Bernstein is sometimes unhurried, he also exaggerates, elevates, the mood swings, tension and the eventual catharsis. I love it...but I don't think Sara would (based on how she's described her wants here, and based on the performances she's found appealing so far).

Sarge