Mahler symphonies - help

[bhodges]

Yes, I have. It's fantastic. Like the performance very broad, but structurally magnificent. Gorgeous playing, if slightly understated in places. The final movement has to be heard to be believed.

Thanks, that means I'll probably (sigh) be getting it soon.  I'm perfectly happy with Chailly's recent recording (among a few others), but I do like Haitink enormously, not to mention the orchestra.  As a sidebar, I'm also curious to hear this inaugural effort in their new recording initiative.  I hope it bodes well for more releases.

--Bruce

[MishaK]

Thanks, that means I'll probably (sigh) be getting it soon.  I'm perfectly happy with Chailly's recent recording (among a few others), but I do like Haitink enormously, not to mention the orchestra.  As a sidebar, I'm also curious to hear this inaugural effort in their new recording initiative.  I hope it bodes well for more releases.

I am told that one of the upcoming releases will be a Bruckner 7 that they perfromed last month. I heard the Tuesday performance and found it rather ragged and not coherent, though some have said that the Saturday performance was much better.

[Greta]

I got this for a song at EBay and finally got around to listening to it (1st mvmt twice so far):



WOW. So far this is awesome. At the old board there was a lot of praise for this one and I see why.

Playing is wonderful, interpretation rocks, beautiful soloists, amazing dynamic contrast, end of 1st mvmt. nearly takes the roof off, fantastic! That very last tempo is insane. I sat down with the score and listened to this twice through and he brings out an incredible amount of detail, a very fresh, vital reading. Some nice finds in there that previously had passed by me. In this mammoth movement, I tend to flag in interest in the calmer chamber sections but here he makes the most out of those moments as well. I have Chailly, Rattle and Solti, but so far may have a new favorite. Chailly maybe captures the  aspect better, and Rattle I've always had a soft spot for, but this is darn impressive.

I was awfully surprised to read several reviews of his recent Mahler 3rd for the Philharmonia's first concert in back in Royal Festival Hall that generally judged that an unsuccessful performance.

[Soundproof]

But that's Tristan Jakob-Hoff, who feels the performers must look the mood of the music. That should make for some interesting mimicry in certain pieces if it became accepted as S.O.P.
"Right then, second movement. Despondent all until the crescendo of merriment, then we must appear to be looking for something as we segue into the fugue. Got that?"

[Greta]

Is he the one that criticized, I believe it was the CBSO players (one of the top English orchestras anyway), for not "looking happy enough"? 

[M forever]

But that's Tristan Jakob-Hoff, who feels the performers must look the mood of the music. That should make for some interesting mimicry in certain pieces if it became accepted as S.O.P.
"Right then, second movement. Despondent all until the crescendo of merriment, then we must appear to be looking for something as we segue into the fugue. Got that?"

Kind of sounds like that
Salonen conducted with a smile throughout and the orchestra responded likewise, suggesting perhaps that Mahler was only half-serious when he wrote those dramatic contrasts of craggy expansiveness and carefree merriment. I’m not sure I buy that Mahler ever did anything half-seriously, even when he was having fun, but there you go.

Or
Seeing the Philharmonia Orchestra returned to its natural habitat is a heart-warming experience, like watching a captive lion freed from its cage at the zoo and allowed to roam the plains of Africa once again. The orchestra’s release back into the wilds of the refurbished Royal Festival Hall went off pretty smoothly, though the lithe and fearsome beast was clearly suffering a few stiff joints after its lengthy interment in the Queen Elizabeth Hall.

He certainly likes to hear himself talk while looking into the mirror, completely fascinated by his own wittiness.

Actually, that sounds *a lot* like *you*. 


I wouldn't take any "review" seriously anyway that contains a paragraph like
But Salonen is not a natural Mahlerian and his account – good-natured and well-intentioned though it was – failed to convince that 24 years in the symphony’s acquaintance has produced any great insight into the music.

Whatever other points "Tristan Jakob-Hoff" may or may not have are totally irrelevant. What is a "natural Mahlerian"? Sounds like he read a little too much Hurwitz. With idiotic stuff like that he immediately disqualifies himself. I just feel a little sorry for him because he had parents who had the nerve to call him "Tristan". Ouch.


Anyway, whatever kind of "Mahlerian" Salonen may or not be, I don't care. I haven't heard his recording of the 3rd in a long time, but as I remember it, it is indeed very good as it is. Obviously, just one of many different ways to approach this massive symphony. It may not be the most "athmospheric" Mahler 3 out there, but the high degree of textural clarity and detail attention make it a very listenable version of this symphony, and a very well and musically played one, too.
They also made a very nice, similarly "analytic" recording of the 4th. This approach which is very different from those who want to squeeze every last bit of expression out of the music at all costs is actually very refreshing. It reminds me a bit of Dohnányi's equally "unusual" and "analytic" Mahler recordings with the Cleveland Orchestra, although Dohnány's structuring of detail and context is a few degrees more compelling still than Salonen's.

I heard Salonen and the LAP play this symphony live last year in Disney Hall, and it was pretty good, too, although I have to admit I was a little underwhelmed. It was basically very good, but it didn't have the same degree of detail attention and cohesiveness as the recording or a number of other Mahler 3 recordings or performances I have heard. It wasn't such a great sonic experience either because of the problems of the hall which totally maxes out and ompresses the sound when the orchestra gets a little louder. The "spectacular" climaxes of the piece were not at all "spectacular", in fact, it sounded pretty shallow. The LAP string sound has also seemed to have thinned out a lot in the middle and top from when I heard them earlier, in the 80s and early 90s.

Actually, a lot of stuff I heard from Salonen recently made me wonder more and more how "good" he actually really is. He is a brilliant conductor, no doubt, and he certainly knows what he is doing and how to make things sound "nice". Some of his early work was really impressive, brilliant and structurally insightful. But it appears to me more and more that he doesn't seem to have left much to "say" beyond superficial brilliance and some detail clarification. His Beethoven symphonies in LA during the last years were pretty much superfluous and shallow contributions, and I haven't heard anything from him in a long time that really impressed me, live or on disc.

Maybe that's why he thinks it might be better to make himself a little more rare as a conductor because his wunderkind credit is all used up? Could be.

In any case, I have to pull out that Mahler 3 and listen to it again some time.

[Soundproof]

I'm confident Salonen knows quite a bit more of Mahler than does Jakob-Hoff.
Maybe we should all chip in and send Jakob-Hoff to Iglau for a study tour?

And I do wonder whether Salonen's exit from LA isn't due to his wanting to work in other air and traditions? What do you think? The LA orchestra is extremely accomplished, the new hall has great acoustics, but I think we'll be hearing more interesting things from Salonen than from Jakob-Hoff in the future.

As to my penchant for wittiness, or as you describe it: "He (Jakob-Hoff) certainly likes to hear himself talk while looking into the mirror, completely fascinated by his own wittiness." Actually, that sounds *a lot* like *you*.  Grin

Sorry, can't help you there, as I see you're resorting to video in order to appear in possession of a sense of humour.
However, I will not look askance should you wish to learn from a master.

[Greta]

Here is the other sort of unfavorable review I read of that performance by Barry Millington.

I heard Salonen and the LAP play this symphony live last year in Disney Hall, and it was pretty good, too, although I have to admit I was a little underwhelmed. It was basically very good, but it didn't have the same degree of detail attention and cohesiveness as the recording or a number of other Mahler 3 recordings or performances I have heard. It wasn't such a great sonic experience either because of the problems of the hall which totally maxes out and ompresses the sound when the orchestra gets a little louder. The "spectacular" climaxes of the piece were not at all "spectacular", in fact, it sounded pretty shallow. The LAP string sound has also seemed to have thinned out a lot in the middle and top from when I heard them earlier, in the 80s and early 90s.

Well, he's one of my favorite conductors, I am a big fan of his, though just as much for his composing and championing of contemporary music than anything.

I think actually he kind of "peaked" around the time of that recording. This was also the period he recorded the televised SRSO Sibelius cycle which is very strong. But since the late 90s his composing career has taken off again, and his enthusiasm for conducting has waned somewhat. You see this in interviews over and over, that he wished he had more time to compose, after Disney Hall dragged out so long, I'd say he's been ready to go since they got safely through the first year or so there. Of course, he's given many brilliant concerts since then, but there is less "new" insight going on.

Actually, a lot of stuff I heard from Salonen recently made me wonder more and more how "good" he actually really is. He is a brilliant conductor, no doubt, and he certainly knows what he is doing and how to make things sound "nice". Some of his early work was really impressive, brilliant and structurally insightful. But it appears to me more and more that he doesn't seem to have left much to "say" beyond superficial brilliance and some detail clarification. His Beethoven symphonies in LA during the last years were pretty much superfluous and shallow contributions, and I haven't heard anything from him in a long time that really impressed me, live or on disc.

Well, he tends to be best in a somewhat limited repertoire, and is smart enough to only record in those areas. His forte is basically 1900 onward, 20th c. and contemporary music, he is undoubtably great in. I think he feels the most passion and enthusiasm these days for contemporary music because he himself is a contemporary composer. He seems more into moving on with the composing these days, which is a great idea, because its what he aimed to do all along and he's (IMO) a fantastic talent.

Maybe that's why he thinks it might be better to make himself a little more rare as a conductor because his wunderkind credit is all used up? Could be.

I think he realizes he knows he has had a brilliant conducting career and realizes his best days are probably behind him. When he took a year's sabbatical to compose, he said, he didn't even miss the "act" of conducting and the headaches at all, just the "being in physical contact with the music." So I don't doubt that his recent Mahler 3rd actually was not an earthshaker. I think he's a little burnt out. This is is pure speculation: I don't think the Philharmonia gig is actually such a good idea - IIRC it was in negotiation for quite a while, and I am willing to bet they are paying him a lot, yet he won't have any administrative duties and will still live in L.A., so it seems it's more to pay the bills (hey, hard to make a living as a composer) and to acknowledge a "debt" to the orchestra as they were responsible for his surprise conducting career in the first place. It will be interesting to see if he and the Philharmonia can ever rekindle their "spark". My guess is he'd rather be back at home in his studio composing and enjoying his family.

[BorisG]

Here is the other sort of unfavorable review I read of that performance by Barry Millington.

Well, he's one of my favorite conductors, I am a big fan of his, though just as much for his composing and championing of contemporary music than anything.

I think actually he kind of "peaked" around the time of that recording. This was also the period he recorded the televised SRSO Sibelius cycle which is very strong. But since the late 90s his composing career has taken off again, and his enthusiasm for conducting has waned somewhat. You see this in interviews over and over, that he wished he had more time to compose, after Disney Hall dragged out so long, I'd say he's been ready to go since they got safely through the first year or so there. Of course, he's given many brilliant concerts since then, but there is less "new" insight going on.

Well, he tends to be best in a somewhat limited repertoire, and is smart enough to only record in those areas. His forte is basically 1900 onward, 20th c. and contemporary music, he is undoubtably great in. I think he feels the most passion and enthusiasm these days for contemporary music because he himself is a contemporary composer. He seems more into moving on with the composing these days, which is a great idea, because its what he aimed to do all along and he's (IMO) a fantastic talent.

I think he realizes he knows he has had a brilliant conducting career and realizes his best days are probably behind him. When he took a year's sabbatical to compose, he said, he didn't even miss the "act" of conducting and the headaches at all, just the "being in physical contact with the music." So I don't doubt that his recent Mahler 3rd actually was not an earthshaker. I think he's a little burnt out. This is is pure speculation: I don't think the Philharmonia gig is actually such a good idea - IIRC it was in negotiation for quite a while, and I am willing to bet they are paying him a lot, yet he won't have any administrative duties and will still live in L.A., so it seems it's more to pay the bills (hey, hard to make a living as a composer) and to acknowledge a "debt" to the orchestra as they were responsible for his surprise conducting career in the first place. It will be interesting to see if he and the Philharmonia can ever rekindle their "spark". My guess is he'd rather be back at home in his studio composing and enjoying his family.

A pretty good summation, I'd say, of Salonen in La La Land. However, I would not be done with him just yet. I think he has more to say with the two hats, though I do agree with your Philharmonia mismatch (Likewise for the DG association?). In my view, over the years he's done better with London Sinfonietta than Philharmonia. That may not mean anything, though. I would like him to think smaller for the next while. Please, everybody, give Mahler and Bruckner a rest.

[Bonehelm]

I just finished listening to Kubelik's M1 and I've gotta say it's the best I've heard. So far I've heard Bertini, Abaddo, Kubelik, Solti and MTT.

[MishaK]

I just finished listening to Kubelik's M1 and I've gotta say it's the best I've heard. So far I've heard Bertini, Abaddo, Kubelik, Solti and MTT.

Kubelik's is very fine and hard to better. But for a different take, try Boulez or Kletzki.

[Bonehelm]

Kubelik's is very fine and hard to better. But for a different take, try Boulez or Kletzki.

OK, thanks for the recommendations. 

[mahlertitan]

I would look into the 3rd symphony next. It was the second, after Titan, of the Mahler symphonies that I came across, and I enjoyed it immensely. Of course, I agree with others that 2 and 6 are also great starting points. I would generally save 7, 8, 9, and 5 for later. As for the 3rd, you could go for any of the aforementioned conductors (Abbado, Bernstein, Karajan (live with the BPO), Abbado, and the like, but I personally would reccomend Eliahu Inbal and the Franfurt Radio Orchestra. It was my introduction to the piece, and I reccomend it easily.

Inbal kicks butt!

[M forever]

That's a very nice recording of the 3rd, but I would also be very interested to hear the "live" Karajan version Steve mentions. Particularly since Karajan never conducted the 3rd.

Nice as Inbal's and many other versions are, this piece is totally owned by the WP, probably because it relies more than maybe any other Mahler symphony on the use of color not just as elements of a varying color palette, but as specific athmospheric elements. There is nothing which comes close to the sound of the Vienna horns in this music which was written at exactly the same time to which the current model of Viennese F horns dates, and the orchestra's sound and playing style also fits the music perfectly in every respect, the rest of the brass, the woodwind, the strings. Their posthorn sounds like a posthorn, not a small trumpet. Abbado in his studio recording for them for DG managed to find the fairy-tale like athmosphere of the piece better than maybe any other performance I have heard, although Boulez in his extremely elegant and stylish and breathtakingly nuanced account is probably just as good in a slightly different way.

[mahlertitan]

I wasn't specifically referring to the 3rd, i was referring to the entire Inbal cycle overall. Although the 3rd wasn't poorly played either, but my favorite piece from the Inbal cycle has to be the 1st, which was just marvelous. 

[M forever]

Maybe I'll revisit that some time. I hardly ever listen to the 1st anymore since I am more than just a little overfed with it, and I haven't listened to this particular version in centuries. But the general level of the Inbal cycle is pretty consistently high.

[BorisG]

Inbal does not stand a chance any more. Too much competition.

[mahlertitan]

Inbal does not stand a chance any more. Too much competition.

from?

[Bonehelm]

from?

Kubelik, Karajan, Klemperer, Kaplan, Kleiber, Bernstein, Abaddo, Tennstedt, Blomstedt, Bertini, Solti, Mehta, MTT,  Barbriolli, Walter, Haitink, Boulez, Horrenstein, Barshai, Zinman, etc etc...and those are just a few that comes out the top of my head right now

[mahlertitan]

Kubelik, Karajan, Klemperer, Kaplan, Kleiber, Bernstein, Abaddo, Tennstedt, Blomstedt, Bertini, Solti, Mehta, MTT,  Barbriolli, Walter, Haitink, Boulez, Horrenstein, Barshai, Zinman, etc etc...and those are just a few that comes out the top of my head right now

and don't forget the Naxos ones.