Mahler symphonies - help

[mahlertitan]

I realised with this question that I'd never seriously looked for just what Mahler Mitropoulos has recorded, and proceeded to resolve the matter via google.

Came up with this, astonishingly enough: http://www.musicandarts.com/CDpages/CD1021.html - samples included!

So it appears he had, in fact, recorded the 1st, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, the Adagio of the 10th and an edited version of the 3rd. That's about 4 recordings more than I knew ever existed of Mitropoulos' Mahler, to say the least.

Edit: I wonder what manner of twisted, dark, and evil ritual I would have to perform to get either Music & Arts, or someone to reissue that set.

interesting, the page said that Mahler's 9th is in " E-flat major", maybe his photographic memory isn't so photographic anymore.

[Renfield]

interesting, the page said that mahler's 9th is in " E- flat major".

Perhaps they tuned their instruments differently, back in the 60's?

I'm kidding! Funny thing is, though, that's the label's own site... And it appears the links to the samples are all dead, as well - too good to be true, was it?

[Drasko]

So it appears he had, in fact, recorded the 1st, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, the Adagio of the 10th and an edited version of the 3rd. That's about 4 recordings more than I knew ever existed of Mitropoulos' Mahler, to say the least.

There is complete 3rd with WDR Köln Radio Orchestra (on Tahra) from 31.10.60 (day before he died).
And there is another 1st with Minneapolis SO from 1940.
That WP 8th is availabe separately on Orfeo.

[Renfield]

There is complete 3rd with WDR Köln Radio Orchestra (on Tahra) from 31.10.60 (day before he died).
And there is another 1st with Minneapolis SO from 1940.
That WP 8th is availabe separately on Orfeo.

And the 6th is the same as the one in "Great Conductors of the 20th Century", correct?

I'm also fairly certain I've seen that 9th before, somewhere... Not sure where, though.

Edit: I have seen it before! It's in an Andante issue, like the Bruno Walter/VPO 4th and "Das Lied" I mentioned previously.

[Drasko]

It is the same 6th but it isn't the same 9th. Andante is with WP. Speaking of 6ths there is another one with NYPO in that usually outrageously priced NYPO - The Mahler Broadcasts 1948-1982 box.

[Renfield]

It is the same 6th but it isn't the same 9th. Andante is with WP. Speaking of 6ths there is another one with NYPO in that usually outrageously priced NYPO - The Mahler Broadcasts 1948-1982 box.

I stand corrected.

And indeed there is a Mitropoulos 6th in that box; in fact, I was asking how it compares to the Cologne 6th, a few posts back.

[Katroc]

No list is complete without Dimitri Mitropoulos' searing 1959 Mahler 6th from Cologne.

All right, I used to post here at GMG before the last time when the walls came crumbling down, requiring posters to again register.  Also, kind of burned out on posting as well.

Anyway, recently I've been loitering about looking for some ideas for new purchases.  Love Mahler, so, of course, read the thread.  Your post piqued my interest, leading me to ordering a copy of the Mitropoulos.  I was, in a way, expecting to be let down and, indeed, during the first notes, the sound quality had my leaning that way.


But...
As my ears began to listen to what was being played, it was a big "Wow!!!" going on in my head.  It really is that good. 

Thanks for the tip...as I fade into the twilight zone of non-posting once again. 

Registered again under a different name just to say your recommendation was right on.

I'm stoked!!!

[PSmith08]

All right, I used to post here at GMG before the last time when the walls came crumbling down, requiring posters to again register.  Also, kind of burned out on posting as well.

Anyway, recently I've been loitering about looking for some ideas for new purchases.  Love Mahler, so, of course, read the thread.  Your post piqued my interest, leading me to ordering a copy of the Mitropoulos.  I was, in a way, expecting to be let down and, indeed, during the first notes, the sound quality had my leaning that way.


But...
As my ears began to listen to what was being played, it was a big "Wow!!!" going on in my head.  It really is that good. 

Thanks for the tip...as I fade into the twilight zone of non-posting once again. 

Registered again under a different name just to say your recommendation was right on.

I'm stoked!!!

Well, thanks very much, assuming - of course - that you'll still lurk. That Mitropoulos 6th is something special. I, too, expected a letdown - it was 1959, when Mahler's symphonies were beginning their ascent, after all - but it just starts strong and doesn't let up until the end. I'm glad I could help.

[not edward]

I'm going to try to reopen this thread, since I've been having some Mahler rethinking of late.

When I was younger (up till my early 20s) Mahler was my very favourite composer. I had several recordings of all the symphonies, except the 8th, but when I got older I decided I'd grown out of Mahler and got rid of a lot of them. This last year or so I've been listening to Mahler a lot more, and am trying to fill out what remains of my collection (it certainly has plenty holes: no integral set, no Abbado) and but I'm looking for some suggestions as to recordings I might find valuable.

1. SOBR/Kubelik has always been my favourite. I don't even have any others right now.

2. This has never been one of my favourite Mahler symphonies, though the recent live Boulez has made me rethink it. Previously I was bored by Klemperer's stodgy way and though Scherchen's eccentric performance kept me interested, it's not something I pull out all that often.

3. As a teenager this was probably my favourite Mahler symphony, but I've found little interest in it of late. Maybe the Horenstein recording I was so enamoured of in the past is no longer for me.

4. A symphony that's very much grown on me over the years. Cleveland/Szell gives me pretty much everything I know that I want in this work, though I also like Walter and Klemperer. (But what about what I don't know that I want?)

5. I used to listen to this symphony a lot, particularly Barbirolli and the DG Bernstein. Then I lost interest for a long time, until the brisker studio Walter and VSOO/Scherchen brought me back.

6. I'm very convinced by Boulez's view of this work, having attended three live performances (all electrifying). The studio recording isn't as good as my (probably misleading) memories of the live experience, but I do like it more than Barbirolli and Szell. I used to have Karajan and DG Bernstein but traded them away (Bernstein because I found it too histrionic, I don't remember why with Karajan). For some reason, I turned down a chance to buy the Mitropolous. Weird.

7. I love this symphony more than I understand it, I think. I grew up on Kubelik, though I think he's been edged out in my affections by Zender and the Sony Bernstein.

8. I've never taken to this work at all. I have Tennstedt and no other recordings.

9. I've got a multitude of recordings that I refuse to part with: Walter '38, Klemperer (if only for the stoic adagio), Barbirolli and above all Ancerl (one of my desert island recordings). The live WP/Karajan doesn't move me in this work for some reason I don't understand. I'm probably going to pick up Maderna and Guilini to add to my 9 library.

10. I have BSO/Rattle, but for a multitude of reasons, I haven't listened to this work in many years.

DLvdE. I think I need Baker/Kmentt/SOBR/Kubelik. I have Baker/Haitink, the GROC Klemperer and Ferrier/Walter, and feel there's something more for me in this work.

[BorisG]

I'm going to try to reopen this thread, since I've been having some Mahler rethinking of late.

When I was younger (up till my early 20s) Mahler was my very favourite composer. I had several recordings of all the symphonies, except the 8th, but when I got older I decided I'd grown out of Mahler and got rid of a lot of them. This last year or so I've been listening to Mahler a lot more, and am trying to fill out what remains of my collection (it certainly has plenty holes: no integral set, no Abbado) and but I'm looking for some suggestions as to recordings I might find valuable.

1. SOBR/Kubelik has always been my favourite. I don't even have any others right now.

2. This has never been one of my favourite Mahler symphonies, though the recent live Boulez has made me rethink it. Previously I was bored by Klemperer's stodgy way and though Scherchen's eccentric performance kept me interested, it's not something I pull out all that often.

3. As a teenager this was probably my favourite Mahler symphony, but I've found little interest in it of late. Maybe the Horenstein recording I was so enamoured of in the past is no longer for me.

4. A symphony that's very much grown on me over the years. Cleveland/Szell gives me pretty much everything I know that I want in this work, though I also like Walter and Klemperer. (But what about what I don't know that I want?)

5. I used to listen to this symphony a lot, particularly Barbirolli and the DG Bernstein. Then I lost interest for a long time, until the brisker studio Walter and VSOO/Scherchen brought me back.

6. I'm very convinced by Boulez's view of this work, having attended three live performances (all electrifying). The studio recording isn't as good as my (probably misleading) memories of the live experience, but I do like it more than Barbirolli and Szell. I used to have Karajan and DG Bernstein but traded them away (Bernstein because I found it too histrionic, I don't remember why with Karajan). For some reason, I turned down a chance to buy the Mitropolous. Weird.

7. I love this symphony more than I understand it, I think. I grew up on Kubelik, though I think he's been edged out in my affections by Zender and the Sony Bernstein.

8. I've never taken to this work at all. I have Tennstedt and no other recordings.

9. I've got a multitude of recordings that I refuse to part with: Walter '38, Klemperer (if only for the stoic adagio), Barbirolli and above all Ancerl (one of my desert island recordings). The live WP/Karajan doesn't move me in this work for some reason I don't understand. I'm probably going to pick up Maderna and Guilini to add to my 9 library.

10. I have BSO/Rattle, but for a multitude of reasons, I haven't listened to this work in many years.

DLvdE. I think I need Baker/Kmentt/SOBR/Kubelik. I have Baker/Haitink, the GROC Klemperer and Ferrier/Walter, and feel there's something more for me in this work.

2 - Suitner, 3 - Nagano, 5  & 7 - Abbado (BPO), 9 - Bernstein (Sony).

[Bonehelm]

I find Kubelik's 2nd very dry, lacking emotional depth and colour. His 1st is 1st rate, though. For the resurrection, I prefer any Simon Rattle, Bernstein 90's, and Mehta/VPO on decca legends.

[Renfield]

I find Kubelik's 2nd very dry, lacking emotional depth and colour. His 1st is 1st rate, though. For the resurrection, I prefer any Simon Rattle, Bernstein 90's, and Mehta/VPO on decca legends.

He died in 1990.

(So that's 80's, there. )


I still don't get the hype about the Mehta, though... Between the Klemperer, the Fischer, the Rattle, the Stokowski, the two Bernsteins, the Tennstedt, the (Lucerne) Abbado, any of the Solti ones and the Boulez, I don't think he has much to add, nowadays.

[DavidW]

I still don't get the hype about the Mehta, though... Between the Klemperer, the Fischer, the Rattle, the Stokowski, the two Bernsteins, the Tennstedt, the (Lucerne) Abbado, any of the Solti ones and the Boulez, I don't think he has much to add, nowadays.

You make it sound like the Mehta recording was new!  Rattle (I can't believe you think that boring recording has any merit!), Abbado (Lucerne), Bernstein II, maybe Tennstedt (I'd have to check the date), and of course Boulez all came after Mehta, so why would Mehta have nothing to add before those recordings!?  That doesn't make any sense at all, perhaps you didn't know when the recordings were made?   And btw Solti is even worse than Rattle, he is just awful, god why did you have to mention him?

[George]

Rattle (I can't believe you think that boring recording has any merit!)

I only have Rattle's 2nd, though I have only heard it a few times and haven't made up my mind yet. If his is boring, which recordings are the opposite?

[Renfield]

You make it sound like the Mehta recording was new!  Rattle (I can't believe you think that boring recording has any merit!), Abbado (Lucerne), Bernstein II, maybe Tennstedt (I'd have to check the date), and of course Boulez all came after Mehta, so why would Mehta have nothing to add before those recordings!?  That doesn't make any sense at all, perhaps you didn't know when the recordings were made?   And btw Solti is even worse than Rattle, he is just awful, god why did you have to mention him?

[...] I don't think he has much to add, nowadays.

Perhaps I was a bit too vague in my original post, so let me explain:

My point does not concern quality of interpretation. All the recordings I mentioned, and the Mehta are in my opinion "solid" Mahler 2nds. For the current listener of Mahler recordings, however, and with the above list of "solid" Mahler 2nds in the market, I consider the Mehta to be outdated in its originality of expression.

In other words, all the recordings I mentioned have something original to say about this symphony, whereas the Mehta has, to my ears, only something similar to other recordings to say, and nothing to add.

And since this is in respect to the Mahler listener of 2007, versus 1975, when the Mehta recording was made, I used the term "nowadays" to denote that fact. Preferences imply comparison, after all; and you don't compare recordings through their dates.


Of course, that is not to say I am of the opinion that "new is [necessarily] better". But if you consider the insights and originality of interpretation in Walter's New York account, which I forgot to mention, I think my point is illustrated enough for me to rest my case.

(For the record, I do like the Rattle, because it dares to be different; but it is still a far cry from my favourite Mahler 2nds outlined earlier in this thread, under the batons of Klemperer and Ivan Fischer, on CD, and the DVD Bernstein from the mid-1970's.)

[longears]

I only have Rattle's 2nd, though I have only heard it a few times and haven't made up my mind yet. If his is boring, which recordings are the opposite?

You know how I feel about Rattle, George:  If he were conducting the music at a strip joint he'd put all the patrons to sleep!

Opposite of boring?  Klemperer.  I also like Boulez and Chailly, either of which I'm more prone to listen to these days.

[George]

You know how I feel about Rattle, George:  If he were conducting the music at a strip joint he'd put all the patrons to sleep!

Opposite of boring?  Klemperer. 

The Philharmonia one?





Or this one:

[longears]

Philharmonia--Walter Legge all the way!

[Renfield]

You know how I feel about Rattle, George:  If he were conducting the music at a strip joint he'd put all the patrons to sleep!

I do wonder what that has to do with Mahler's 2nd Symphony.

Still, the Klemperer is in a league of its own here, as they say. That I'll agree with.

[Drasko]

I'm going to try to reopen this thread, since I've been having some Mahler rethinking of late.

When I was younger (up till my early 20s) Mahler was my very favourite composer. I had several recordings of all the symphonies, except the 8th, but when I got older I decided I'd grown out of Mahler and got rid of a lot of them. This last year or so I've been listening to Mahler a lot more, and am trying to fill out what remains of my collection (it certainly has plenty holes: no integral set, no Abbado) and but I'm looking for some suggestions as to recordings I might find valuable.....

No.1 If you don't mind some approximate playing and lousy sound you could try Mitropoulos/Minneapolis, still my favorite Frere Jacques by wide margin.

No.3 Boulez/WP is only one that gets any playing time around here lately. Do have fond memories of Neumann/CzPO, brisk, fresh, vigorous reading without too much weltschmerz and with superb Christa Ludwig. Mitropoulos' Köln recording is surprisingly straightforward for him, though he does get the chorus to accent those bim-bams in a way that make it sound like a funeral music for some reason.

No.4 Walter in better sound and with better singer, namely '53 live NYPO recording with Irmgard Seefried on Tahra. Maybe you could try one with a boy treble? Bernstein/Concertgebouw is superb but I really dislike the singing of that boy. There is only one other, which I would like to hear as well, Nanut/Ljubljana RSO. Now Ljubljana band is no world beater by no means but Nanut is actually very good Mahler conductor and his soloist Max Emanuel Cencic is bound to be better than Bernstein's.

No.6  Thomas Sanderling with St. Petersburg is good enough to give it a try (especially since it's free, those are very good sounding flacs). He takes quite martial approach to first movement (not very sentimental throughout). Orchestral sound is interesting, transitional,  they still had a lot of old soviet bands: superbly focused strings and principal trumpet who can crack a wall from hundred yards but otoh principal horn plays almost without any vibrato.
http://rapidshare.com/files/31515030/Mahler_6_Sanderling.part1.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/31531842/Mahler_6_Sanderling.part2.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/31540360/Mahler_6_Sanderling.part3.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/31547791/Mahler_6_Sanderling.part4.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/31548933/Mahler_6_Sanderling.part5.rar

No.7 Scherchen's studio VSOO is Scherchen on his best behaviour, superb grasp on moods of middle movements. Kondrashin live on Tahra takes finale at one of his trademark lightning speeds but Concergebouw can cope and he pulls it off. Gielen with Baden-Baden is superb as well.

Das Lied you pretty much covered it, maybe one of tenor/baritone settings? Can't really make a recommendation since I only have King/Dieskau/Bernstein. For standard mezzo/tenor version I'd add Sinopoli. He has good mezzo, adequate tenor and one of the most amazing orchestral playing (Staatskapelle Dresden) I ever heard in Mahler. I think it might be his very finest Mahler recording.