Author Topic: Petrouchka / Petrushka  (Read 32032 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

snyprrr

  • Guest
Re: Petrouchka / Petrushka OFF THE WALL, OR PERFECT, WHATEVER
« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2017, 03:29:54 PM »
Here's where I stand. I say I could care less about it, but here I am obsessing, so, it must be important... uh. I currently have Colin Davis/Concertbebouw (Philips), Haitink Berlin (Philips), and Boulez/Cleveland (DG), none of which have won universal acclaim, though merits all they have.

I believe this is a scrappy, violent, eerie, PUPPET music (after all), and, so, I can't really bear to hear this as "music". There have to be CHARACTERS for me. Every instrument, every note, every bar, has to sound like a play going on for it to interest me, and, of course, I want to hear EVERYTHING going on.

I don't care if we have two sets of criteria for the two versions. I does seem difficult nailing down sometimes which version is being performed (Nagano/Erato?), so, the more the merrier.

Here's what I've heard, and would be interested in:

Dorati/Chicago- apparently, he STARTS with the 1947 version, and then liberally does a mixing of whatever he thinks is
                          appropriate. I listened on YT, and was struck at the monolithic ediface of this version, with it's very quiet
                          passages. I thought this one better than Boulez/NewYork, though they both seem to have the same idea.

Dohnanyi/Vienna- this ANALOG recording gets extremely high marks all around, and is coupled with 'Mandarin'. Of course I
                              want to know the skinny here! Tell me tell me

Nagano/LSO- I just imagine the sonic landscape here must be pretty good, and that's all I care about: hearing cool sounds
                      in this piece, and 'Mandarin'. Either this, or Dohnanyi? (I know what you'll say?)

Bychkov/Paris- I hear this one has a great recording AND vivid characterization of parts by Bychkov. Very interested.

Temirkanov/1990- I hear he revs up the horror movie aspect... is it true?

Mehta/???- eh?
MTT/???- eh?

I'm not interested, but you could tell me about Bernstein too :P


I NEED IT TO SOUND LIKE FANTASY PUPPET MURDER SEX MUSIC, LIKE MANDARIN >:D

snyprrr

  • Guest
Re: Petrouchka / Petrushka IWAKI, ANYONE??
« Reply #41 on: April 02, 2017, 06:02:07 PM »
Well, thaaanks ::)


I chose to make Petrushka a test case, and went All Philips: Davis/Concertgebouw, Haitink/Berlin, and Bychkov/Paris. All three have very different sounds and styles, good for surfing.

Then we also have the Boulez/DG by default. This seemed like a fine enough account, but the sound isn't as crystalline as the Haitink/Berlin, so, there doesn't really seem to be any "magic" in the Boulez.

Haitink sounds greeeat, though close quartered (which gives a very odd, cinematic sweep feel on a TV soundstage... I kinds like it).. Haitink isn't particularly unbuttoned, and seems to do best with the lilting themes of 'Chez Petrouchka', which reminds me a little of the "hebrew songs" of DSCH, the "moshe... moshele" bit, very sad.

Colin Davis's sound with the Concertgebouw is slightly recessed, sounding glorious, but Davis doesn't seem to be doing all that much with it. Haitink gets much more out of the above piece than Davis.

Bychkov hasn't arrived, but the samples indicate a boisterous and fruity Paris account.


I remember having Iwaki, and I know his has gotten some good notices; might have to re-investigate...

Offline Monsieur Croche

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1439
Re: Petrouchka / Petrushka IWAKI, ANYONE??
« Reply #42 on: April 02, 2017, 09:42:27 PM »
Well, thaaanks ::)


I chose to make Petrushka a test case, and went All Philips: Davis/Concertgebouw, Haitink/Berlin, and Bychkov/Paris. All three have very different sounds and styles, good for surfing.

Then we also have the Boulez/DG by default. This seemed like a fine enough account, but the sound isn't as crystalline as the Haitink/Berlin, so, there doesn't really seem to be any "magic" in the Boulez.

Haitink sounds greeeat, though close quartered (which gives a very odd, cinematic sweep feel on a TV soundstage... I kinds like it).. Haitink isn't particularly unbuttoned, and seems to do best with the lilting themes of 'Chez Petrouchka', which reminds me a little of the "hebrew songs" of DSCH, the "moshe... moshele" bit, very sad.

Colin Davis's sound with the Concertgebouw is slightly recessed, sounding glorious, but Davis doesn't seem to be doing all that much with it. Haitink gets much more out of the above piece than Davis.

Bychkov hasn't arrived, but the samples indicate a boisterous and fruity Paris account.


I remember having Iwaki, and I know his has gotten some good notices; might have to re-investigate...

If you're listening to the 1911 version (with its, I'll admit, luscious double woodwinds as part of its orchestration) you are listening to a far lesser work than Stravinsky's 1947 revised edition. 

The revision does do away with the doubled woodwinds, but it is vastly clarified, the piano part quite extended.  For this version, still the liveliest most animated recording I've heard is the Stravinsky - Columbia recording from the 60's -- which is not the performance in the Stravinsky box set issue.


Best regards
~ I'm all for personal expression; it just has to express something to me. ~

snyprrr

  • Guest
Re: Petrouchka / Petrushka IWAKI, ANYONE??
« Reply #43 on: April 03, 2017, 07:04:40 AM »
If you're listening to the 1911 version (with its, I'll admit, luscious double woodwinds as part of its orchestration) you are listening to a far lesser work than Stravinsky's 1947 revised edition. 

The revision does do away with the doubled woodwinds, but it is vastly clarified, the piano part quite extended.  For this version, still the liveliest most animated recording I've heard is the Stravinsky - Columbia recording from the 60's -- which is not the performance in the Stravinsky box set issue.


Best regards

sO, THAT'S THE ONE with 'Le Sacre' on the old CBS "blue spine" disc? Yea, I do get tired of making excuses why others just can't seem to surpass him. I think it's because they're more concerned with recording quality, and all that fancy business, instead of just going balls-to-the-wall.

IS got pretty "good" sound- why do all modern recordings HAVE to bow to the gods of hi fidelity?, or, rather, why can't a crisp clean recording without too much fairy dust (engineer tricks) be rendered? That's why I chose three recordings by the same label, just to hear... and all of them have such wildly different interpretations of how to record a piece like this... the Haitink is pretty up front and clear, but he's not the most natural.


anyhow... Igor, huh? ok

Offline Heck148

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 196
  • Location: USA
Re: Petrouchka / Petrushka
« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2017, 04:13:39 AM »
Stravinsky's Petrushka is on top of my very, very favorite piece of classical work ever created. ...... What recordings should I get?

Levine/ChicagoSO is wonderful...delicious solo work, wonderfully lively, with all the humor, pathos, tongue-in-cheek, etc....

An historical favorite - [NA on CD, IME] Mitropoulos/NYPO....great stuff, outrageous - the NYPO '50s wild men at their best....great solos, great honky, quacky 2ble reed work...a real hoot. too bad never re-issued. 

snyprrr

  • Guest
Re: Petrouchka / Petrushka
« Reply #45 on: April 06, 2017, 08:44:29 AM »
Levine/ChicagoSO is wonderful...delicious solo work, wonderfully lively, with all the humor, pathos, tongue-in-cheek, etc....

An historical favorite - [NA on CD, IME] Mitropoulos/NYPO....great stuff, outrageous - the NYPO '50s wild men at their best....great solos, great honky, quacky 2ble reed work...a real hoot. too bad never re-issued.

Levine? huh

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 58701
  • Et quid amabo nisi quod ænigma est?
    • Henningmusick
  • Location: Boston, Mass.
  • Currently Listening to:
    Shostakovich, D. Scarlattii, Stravinsky, JS Bach, Liszt, Martinů, Haydn, Henning
Re: Petrouchka / Petrushka
« Reply #46 on: April 06, 2017, 08:51:14 AM »

Levine/ChicagoSO is wonderful...delicious solo work, wonderfully lively, with all the humor, pathos, tongue-in-cheek, etc....

Levine? huh

I haven't heard this, but judging from the Levine/CSO accounts of Holst and the two frequently-done Prokofiev symphonies, yes, I am sure it is a good fit.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Drasko

  • Guest
Re: Petrouchka / Petrushka
« Reply #47 on: April 06, 2017, 09:33:29 AM »
Levine's Oedipus Rex with the CSO is (mostly) excellent, marred only by tremulous Iocasta.

snyprrr

  • Guest
Re: Petrouchka / Petrushka
« Reply #48 on: April 06, 2017, 05:47:47 PM »
Levine's Oedipus Rex with the CSO is (mostly) excellent, marred only by tremulous Iocasta.

I just tried to listen to the one many deem the overall best, Colin Davis, and wheeew, I could not get through that lady singer!! Tremulous? This was spasmodic!! And, I haven't yet tried to hear Norman, but, ack, that look of her scares me and can only imagine she's like the rest...(but, they say she's not?

Oh, I tried you, Oedipus Rex, last night, you remember, ... it was just bad, just bad... all those men singing in that man voice, and then that lady scared you... there there, snyprrr, go to sleep... go to sleep...

snyprrr

  • Guest
Re: Petrouchka / Petrushka HEEEEY!! BYCHKOV IS A WINNER!!!
« Reply #49 on: April 06, 2017, 05:54:10 PM »
Hey now!!

Bychkov's really got a nice take. The sound is 1stClass. The instruments are fruity and tangy. He's relaxed, yet there is tension. There's nice air around the orchestra without it becoming... you know, "SuperSynphonicSpectacle",... which, is a good thing!

Yea, a modern Paris version, very nice. And, 'Divertimento' is also primo.

Compared with Haitink- same label, same YEAR!!1991- we have two very different sonic projections (Haitink's sound is spectacularly in the orchestra claustrophobic cinemascope cool; Bychkov, perfectly normally judged). There are both extremely tender in the Petrouchka music, with Bychkov maybe even getting an extra drop out.

Good stuff

snyprrr

  • Guest
Re: Petrouchka / Petrushka THX Karl,Sarge
« Reply #50 on: June 14, 2017, 09:42:20 AM »
So, I think I have set things like this for myself:

Dorati/Detroit 1947/1911 hybrid

Bychkov/Paris-Philips 1947
                                           Chailly 1947
Haintink/Berlin 1911
Boulez/Cleveland 1911


Dutoit or NJarvi 1911

Iwaki 1911- still not quite happy with the big strange sound


Rattle               rounding it all out...         Dohnanyi/Vienna                    Maazel/Vienna-RCA
Davis/RCO                                                 Nagano/LSO



For 'Petrouchka' I needed SOUND, so that's why there's a heavy emphasis on modern


snyprrr

  • Guest
PETROUCHK-OFF (Mostly for Sound Purposes)
« Reply #51 on: June 22, 2017, 01:37:39 PM »
I just did a comparison of the first Big Minute of 'Petrouchka', and here are the rresults:

1) Surprisingly, Dorati/Detroit had the most outrageously excellent sound, so crisp, and coming at you from all directions, hearing things you're just not hearing in most others. The excitement level is also almost in a class by itself.

2) Bychkov/Philips had the most vibrantly alive recording, open, airy, and free, yet also close enough, plus very good excitement.

3) Rattle/Birmingham is clear, deep, loud, and delineated and exciting. I was won over by his enthusiasm; orchestra may be the "worst" of the bunch, but that doesn't say much in such excellent company.

4) Boulez/DG has a certain quality one notices immediately comping from the conductor. You are hearing things, as is to be expected with Boulez (I loathe to say "x ray"). The recording voltage is surprisingly the lowest on this survey, but it really doesn't matter by itself. Still, it really does pale in comparison with Dorati- I was shocked! :)

5) Haintink-Berlin/Philips may have the most CinemaScope recording, lovingly in your face and "claustrophobic", but delightfully so. Orchestra,... natch. I like this one more and more, even if it should be too glossy, creamy, and smooth sounding, but, to me, it sounds like ear candy. Still, Bychkov technically "sounds betters", but, they are so different that you must have both!

6) Chailly's sound won't permit him to not rank highly, and, there is no arguing with the sound, as is it futile to argue with the orchestra. To me, Chailly sounds like somewhere in between Boulez-Haitink-Dorati, very delineated and etched, friendlier than Boulez- I'd say Haintink would be Chailly's foil in this survey, with Dorati delivering the final blow.

7) Dutoit/Montreal also comes with an identifiable sound, the Decca-Montreal Sound (I call it the "sunny day in Montreal" sound). It's one of the most distantly recorded, but it fills its space very well, as anyone who is aware of the sonic profile knows. There's much to like, but, next to all the rest, it can't be considered version for "everyman"- it's a "purpose" recording, fulfilling its purpose (amongst which is having another version of the 1911).

8) I have to consider Dutoit/LSO unlistenable(?) because of the early DG recording.

9) Oops, for Iwaki/Melbourne (Virgin), which has an interesting sonic profile- you should have to turn it up. It's very exciting, and must be considered a Dark Horse contender.

10) Also, Mehta/NewYork gets very high marks for a grand recording in the CBS '70s manner that holds up very well indeed.

Parsifal

  • Guest
Re: Petrouchka / Petrushka
« Reply #52 on: June 22, 2017, 02:28:41 PM »
Ansermet/OSR is well worth hearing, I don't know about the first minute.  Also Monteux, Orchestre de la Société Des Concerts Du Conservatoire, Paris


Offline Dry Brett Kavanaugh

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1036
  • Location: U.S.A.
  • Currently Listening to:
    Eric Dolphy, Persian music, Sorabji, Scriabin, Sex Pistols
Re: Petrouchka / Petrushka THX Karl,Sarge
« Reply #53 on: August 29, 2019, 07:23:27 PM »
I like Dorati. Also Ozawa. Dorati is slightly slower and the music is breathing. Ozawa’s rendition is vivacious and colorful.

So, I think I have set things like this for myself:

Dorati/Detroit 1947/1911 hybrid

Bychkov/Paris-Philips 1947
                                           Chailly 1947
Haintink/Berlin 1911
Boulez/Cleveland 1911


Dutoit or NJarvi 1911

Iwaki 1911- still not quite happy with the big strange sound


Rattle               rounding it all out...         Dohnanyi/Vienna                    Maazel/Vienna-RCA
Davis/RCO                                                 Nagano/LSO



For 'Petrouchka' I needed SOUND, so that's why there's a heavy emphasis on modern
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 08:49:38 PM by Forever Electoral College »

Offline Irons

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 2902
  • Location: Surrey, UK
Re: Petrouchka / Petrushka
« Reply #54 on: September 05, 2019, 09:27:20 AM »
Understatement is perhaps not the order of the day for this work but with Rosbaud less is more. Great cover (LP).

You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

Offline Dry Brett Kavanaugh

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1036
  • Location: U.S.A.
  • Currently Listening to:
    Eric Dolphy, Persian music, Sorabji, Scriabin, Sex Pistols
Re: Petrouchka / Petrushka
« Reply #55 on: January 02, 2021, 07:10:04 AM »
Enjoying the recordings by Janson and Fedoseyev.

Offline Roasted Swan

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1334
  • Location: UK
Re: Petrouchka / Petrushka
« Reply #56 on: January 02, 2021, 08:19:38 AM »
Levine/ChicagoSO is wonderful...delicious solo work, wonderfully lively, with all the humor, pathos, tongue-in-cheek, etc....

An historical favorite - [NA on CD, IME] Mitropoulos/NYPO....great stuff, outrageous - the NYPO '50s wild men at their best....great solos, great honky, quacky 2ble reed work...a real hoot. too bad never re-issued.

That Levine seems to have been a Japanese only CD pressing?  Shame its never been more widely released.  I really enjoyed their Mahler/Brahms etc for RCA and would love to here this......

Offline Dry Brett Kavanaugh

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1036
  • Location: U.S.A.
  • Currently Listening to:
    Eric Dolphy, Persian music, Sorabji, Scriabin, Sex Pistols
Re: Petrouchka / Petrushka
« Reply #57 on: January 02, 2021, 09:48:15 AM »
That Levine seems to have been a Japanese only CD pressing?  Shame its never been more widely released.  I really enjoyed their Mahler/Brahms etc for RCA and would love to here this......

I haven't seen the recording in CD format in Japan or North America. As for the LP, USA 1978, JPN 1980.