The Organ, Master of them all - general organ thread

[Marc]

A novice question:

How would you describe that non-scholarly grand and intimate tone that Marie Claire Alain has on her Bach recordings? Is it the settings she chooses or the organs themselves? Are there any other players that favor a similar sound?

Must admit I do not understand this entirely.

Alain has done 3 integrals, plus at least a handful 'loose' discs in between, on various organs with different sounds.
In general, I find her style semi-informed: not much legato, and the grand choral-free works mostly with full organ from start to end.
There's a more intimate sound in many of the chorale arrangements, which is quite normal: you pick a stop for the chorale melody, and mostly the accompaniment of the other voices is either 'only' accompaniment' or showing interesting polyphony/counterpoint. I find Alain's style in her chorale stuff a bit laid-back and dry, but it never struck me as very non-scholarly.

The sound Alain is extracting from f.i. the Schnitger et al organ in the Groningen Martinikerk, is not very different from the sound that many other organist prefer, as far as I can 'judge'. Grand when needed, and intimate when needed.
(Of course there are many different views on what is 'needed'.)

[Mandryka]

A novice question:

How would you describe that non-scholarly grand and intimate tone that Marie Claire Alain has on her Bach recordings? Is it the settings she chooses or the organs themselves? Are there any other players that favor a similar sound?

She said "J'ai travaillé dans la joie et j'ai été inondée. "

[Mandryka]

The organist seated at the king of instruments with thousands of pipes rising all around him, his hands busy at the manuals and his feet patrolling the pedalboard, is a symbol of musical self-sufficiency yielding musical possibilities beyond that of any other mode of solo performance. In this book, David Yearsley presents an interpretation of the significance of the oldest and richest of European instruments, by investigating the German origins of the uniquely independent use of the feet in organ playing. Delving into a range of musical, literary and visual sources, Bach's Feet demonstrates the cultural importance of this physically demanding mode of music-making, from the blind German organists of the fifteenth century, through the central contribution of Bach's music and legacy, to the newly-pedaling organists of the British Empire and the sinister visions of Nazi propagandists.

Anyone read this? I feel tempted.

[bioluminescentsquid]

Anyone read this? I feel tempted.

Great book that thankfully doesn't go too much into technical nitty-gritty organistic details.

Speaking of Yearsley, his Strungk recording really is wonderful! Particularly the Ricercar Sopra la morte della mia carissima Madre.

[Elk]

The organ at Sens is clean sounding but far from faceless, 18th century and restored to some sort of authentic condition towards the end of the 20th century, maybe this recording was in celebration of that restoration, I don't know. Kirnberger III, so it could be worse.  Anne Chapelin Dubar choses colourful registers and plays in a refined and fluid way. She also has the knack of making the melodies sound eloquent and expressive. The sound world is often small scale, chamber music almost.  The result is sensual, you catch yourself thinking "oh how beautiful, tender, delicate!" often, but rarely if ever "oh how magisterial, imposing, flamboyant." though a bit of flamboyance is unavoidable in the dialogues.  No singing in alternatim, but played like this the organ music all on its own is totally satisfying.

Without wishing to be sexist, I want to say that this is a feminine performance, I know that's nonsense, but there you are. I'd also like to suggest that it shows a Grigny who is partly indebted to Renaissance musical values, which is original maybe.

Anne Chapelin Dubar was a harpsichord specialist, a student of Huguette Dreyfus and worked with Blandine Verlet, though she did also work with Michel Chappuis, and just maybe you can hear the fact that she was imbued in French harpsichord music - Chambonnières and Marchand - in these organ performances.

It is very well recorded on disc, the Spotify transfer less appealing.

I wonder if you know you can change the audio quality of streaming on Spotify. I just learned of it by asking an audiophile who uses Spotify almost exclusively (I have been disenchanted with the sound until now). There is a little gear in the upper right corner of the site. Click on it and scroll down to Music Quality, et voilà. Hope this helps.

[Mandryka]

I wonder if you know you can change the audio quality of streaming on Spotify. I just learned of it by asking an audiophile who uses Spotify almost exclusively (I have been disenchanted with the sound until now). There is a little gear in the upper right corner of the site. Click on it and scroll down to Music Quality, et voilà. Hope this helps.

Yes I know and I find that the premium service does not have satisfactory sound for hifi, it suits me fine if I want to just listen through my phone.

[bioluminescentsquid]

Warning: tons of obscure organ-related drivel below.
I was reading articles by Koos van der Linde about Sweelinck's mid-16th century Hendrick Niehoff organ in the Oude kerk, and how there really aren't representative examples of this type of organ any more (e.g. Tangermünde is a generation too late and for a more advanced Northern German school, Leiden Pieterskerk has similar key ranges but is almost a century too late and represents the tastes around the time of van Noordt etc.).

Of course, KvdL points to the organ in St. Jacques Liège, a (almost faithful) reconstruction of Sweelinck's Oude kerk organ based on the little we know, plus or minus a few stops, as the only real "Sweelinck organ". Of course, he was organ consultant when it was built.

Anyways, I've been listening to the few recordings of this organ - Leon Berben's Sweelinck set, his "Der organistenmacher, and Schoonbroodt's Sweelinck.

Hassler's Magnificat https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA_VJy3DElY

Well, my God, this organ is a beast. Even a single Principal or flute is very, almost overwhelmingly strong, and the plenum - it roars. I think I understand when Georg Böhm meant when he asked the organ builder Dropa to preserve the "Brilliant sound" of his Niehoff organ in Lüneburg when it was altered to meet early 18th century standards.
I don't know what to make of it. There isn't much subtlety to any of the playing I've heard on it, and I'm suspicious that it's because of the instrument rather than the players. A hard beast to tame. But a stunning beast it is.

Buxtehude's Passacaglia, organo pleno: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLFVYExphfs

Here in the US, John Brombaugh supposedly used original Niehoff pipes as reference when constructing and voicing his own organs. I've played Brombaugh organs, and his principals are very different (darker, more vocal, less chiff) than the ones at Liege - and to my taste more beautiful.

[Mandryka]

It would be interesting to hear how Foccroulle plays the Liege organ, he recorded a disc on it here but it has completely disappeared without trace.

https://www.muziekweb.nl/Link/CLX2663/Orgues-de-Wallonie-Orgue-Saint-Jacques-de-Li%C3%A8ge

[Mandryka]

Warning: tons of obscure organ-related drivel below.
I was reading articles by Koos van der Linde about Sweelinck's mid-16th century Hendrick Niehoff organ in the Oude kerk, and how there really aren't representative examples of this type of organ any more (e.g. Tangermünde is a generation too late and for a more advanced Northern German school, Leiden Pieterskerk has similar key ranges but is almost a century too late and represents the tastes around the time of van Noordt etc.).

Of course, KvdL points to the organ in St. Jacques Liège, a (almost faithful) reconstruction of Sweelinck's Oude kerk organ based on the little we know, plus or minus a few stops, as the only real "Sweelinck organ". Of course, he was organ consultant when it was built.

Anyways, I've been listening to the few recordings of this organ - Leon Berben's Sweelinck set, his "Der organistenmacher, and Schoonbroodt's Sweelinck.

Hassler's Magnificat https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA_VJy3DElY

Well, my God, this organ is a beast. Even a single Principal or flute is very, almost overwhelmingly strong, and the plenum - it roars. I think I understand when Georg Böhm meant when he asked the organ builder Dropa to preserve the "Brilliant sound" of his Niehoff organ in Lüneburg when it was altered to meet early 18th century standards.
I don't know what to make of it. There isn't much subtlety to any of the playing I've heard on it, and I'm suspicious that it's because of the instrument rather than the players. A hard beast to tame. But a stunning beast it is.

Buxtehude's Passacaglia, organo pleno: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLFVYExphfs

Here in the US, John Brombaugh supposedly used original Niehoff pipes as reference when constructing and voicing his own organs. I've played Brombaugh organs, and his principals are very different (darker, more vocal, less chiff) than the ones at Liege - and to my taste more beautiful.

What is chiff? Is it the same as chuff?

Listening to CD 4 of Berben this afternoon, the one at Liège, there certainly isn't much subtlety in the playing, and not in Schoonbroodt neither!  But we've seen this sort of straight from the hip approach can be very attractive - Flamme in Michael Praetorius for example. The problem for me is that my expectations about what Sweelinck should sound like have been set by Winsemius, Leonhardt etc - I want solemnity please, authentic or not.

[bioluminescentsquid]

What is chiff? Is it the same as chuff?

Listening to CD 4 of Berben this afternoon, the one at Liège, there certainly isn't much subtlety in the playing, and not in Schoonbroodt neither!  But we've seen this sort of straight from the hip approach can be very attractive - Flamme in Michael Praetorius for example. The problem for me is that my expectations about what Sweelinck should sound like have been set by Winsemius, Leonhardt etc - I want solemnity please, authentic or not.

By "chiff", I mean the little hiss that pipes make as they start to speak - they act sort of like consonants in singing, if we take the fully developed pipe tone as a vowel.

It's become somewhat of distinguishing feature of Baroque pipe voicing, although builders of the neo-baroque revival in the 50~70's tended to over-do it.

8' Principal of a not particularly distinguished 60's American Neo-Baroque organ https://youtu.be/lWWj08IbPpw?t=1m11s

8' Principal of a Brombaugh organ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J33lFVZl1Zg

8' Principal at Uttum (our favorite organ) https://youtu.be/xF0LBkA3yWw?t=2m56s

A bit of an extreme example, the Trost's principal at Waltershausen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nu4PzEFDPM

... Although there are certainly historical organs with almost no chiff:

8' Principal at Kantens https://youtu.be/yFhSAOuUHyY?t=4m53s
I sometimes practice on an Ahrend organ that is voiced exactly this way with almost no chiff, and while it's a beautiful organ it is a bit unnerving since it's harder to tell when a note starts.

Also 8' at Krewerd, which now you can tell works very differently from the examples I provided above: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-76OkKhTr4, with pipes that range from zero chiff to lots of chiff.

Tangermünde is also somewhere in between: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByoUKl-gauw
(Scherers were based in Hamburg, an area very influenced by the organs that Niehoff built there - some organ contracts, at least in the 16th century, even demanded them to imitate the way Niehoff voiced his organs)

Anyways, back to Liege, I think we can agree that what we hear there is very different from the sound examples I provided, even if most of examples (except for the Zimmer and Trost organs) are from a similar geographic area and period as Niehoff, or in the Brombaugh's case Niehoff-inspired. Thus the shock. But KvdL could be correct, all these organs (except for maybe Krewerd) represent evolved styles, the pipes that Brombraugh looked at have been revoiced and stood on different wind pressure etc... and Liege is really more like what Sweelinck knew.

Another thing, Albert Kiespenning was an organ builder that Sweelinck regularly worked with. One of his organs still exist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MN3p_pNprA
Again, a different sound world from the "Niehoff" in Liege.

I'm with you with solemnity and subtlety, none of the Sweelinck recordings at Liege really satisfy me.

[prémont]

By "chiff", I mean the little hiss that pipes make as they start to speak - they act sort of like consonants in singing, if we take the fully developed pipe tone as a vowel.

It's become somewhat of distinguishing feature of Baroque pipe voicing, although builders of the neo-baroque revival in the 50~70's tended to over-do it.

Thanks for these links. In short it is this over-done chiff (and of course the equal tuning) which makes many neo-baroque organs (many Marcussen and Metzler organs among others) rather tiring listening in the long run.

[Mandryka]

By "chiff", I mean the little hiss that pipes make as they start to speak - they act sort of like consonants in singing, if we take the fully developed pipe tone as a vowel.

It's become somewhat of distinguishing feature of Baroque pipe voicing, although builders of the neo-baroque revival in the 50~70's tended to over-do it.

8' Principal of a not particularly distinguished 60's American Neo-Baroque organ https://youtu.be/lWWj08IbPpw?t=1m11s

8' Principal of a Brombaugh organ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J33lFVZl1Zg

8' Principal at Uttum (our favorite organ) https://youtu.be/xF0LBkA3yWw?t=2m56s

A bit of an extreme example, the Trost's principal at Waltershausen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nu4PzEFDPM

... Although there are certainly historical organs with almost no chiff:

8' Principal at Kantens https://youtu.be/yFhSAOuUHyY?t=4m53s
I sometimes practice on an Ahrend organ that is voiced exactly this way with almost no chiff, and while it's a beautiful organ it is a bit unnerving since it's harder to tell when a note starts.

Also 8' at Krewerd, which now you can tell works very differently from the examples I provided above: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-76OkKhTr4, with pipes that range from zero chiff to lots of chiff.

Tangermünde is also somewhere in between: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByoUKl-gauw
(Scherers were based in Hamburg, an area very influenced by the organs that Niehoff built there - some organ contracts, at least in the 16th century, even demanded them to imitate the way Niehoff voiced his organs)

Anyways, back to Liege, I think we can agree that what we hear there is very different from the sound examples I provided, even if most of examples (except for the Zimmer and Trost organs) are from a similar geographic area and period as Niehoff, or in the Brombaugh's case Niehoff-inspired. Thus the shock. But KvdL could be correct, all these organs (except for maybe Krewerd) represent evolved styles, the pipes that Brombraugh looked at have been revoiced and stood on different wind pressure etc... and Liege is really more like what Sweelinck knew.

Another thing, Albert Kiespenning was an organ builder that Sweelinck regularly worked with. One of his organs still exist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MN3p_pNprA
Again, a different sound world from the "Niehoff" in Liege.

I'm with you with solemnity and subtlety, none of the Sweelinck recordings at Liege really satisfy me.

Excellent, those example really made thing clear. And how much more refined and interesting Utum is compared with those modern organs!

I WANT MORE KREWARD!!!!!!!!!

[bioluminescentsquid]

One of the organs with the most beautiful principal 8' is currently tuned in equal temperament, the Hinsz organ in Buitenkerk Kampen. Hinsz reused old 16th-century pipes for the organ, and I really like the relaxed, vocal sound that starts with a little "spit".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNevFI2LJNs
(Wonderful performance too!)

I wouldn't say that chiff is overdone in the sort of modern organs you refer to, it's just different. The Trost organ, for instance, has even more chiff than the Zimmer but we can agree that it is also more beautiful than the Zimmer. It isn't the only parameter to pipe sound too, of course.

Also, the Marcussen and Metzler weren't the worst offenders. Take this organ built by Paul Ott in the 50's (this particular Paul Ott is also responsible for quite a few by todays standards botched and unnecessarily invasive organ "restorations" - he restored original Schnitger organs to sound like his own chiffy machines)
https://youtu.be/Qa-tBI2wZQ4?t=1m43s
But there's actually something very charming about this - at least there is more character than the really offensively inoffensive organs that for instance Rübsam (first one, Metzler at Frauenfield and Marcussen at Freiburg) or Hurford uses in their Bach integrales.

Eg. here, a principal 8' from Rübsam's set on the Frauenfeld Metzler organ: https://youtu.be/eAeFEkjfnEg?t=11m14s

Thankfully, we're more than fully capable of building old-sounding principals - e.g. here in Göteborg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t269dEz_vGM

Even a Flentrop from the 70's already comes quite close: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Trl-26oSEHU

Original Schnitger principals for comparison: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkHnOXIDIW4 (Notice that even Schnitger principals all sound different, of course dependent on subsequent rebuilders, the room, recording technology, how Schnitger's own tastes changed over time. etc.)

Stellwagen organ Lübeck: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQwz7tOK_ks

Van Haegerbeer-organ Leiden https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nIbLvshYL0

18th-century Anton Gansen organ in unrevoiced condition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUsQaTphiJY

A much-rebuilt organ from the early 16th century in Kiedrich: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8zWzj6zS3s

Another Baroque organ without much chiff, this time an English organ.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCkmaL6deko

Or another unrevoiced post-Schnitger Northern German organ: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndCMwRCuP-Q

And then the other extreme with lots of expressive chiff, a South German organ also in pristine condition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6GKWPDZaso

I hope you are liking these "principal beauty pageants" (with some duds mixed in).

[prémont]

I wouldn't say that chiff is overdone in the sort of modern organs you refer to, it's just different. The Trost organ, for instance, has even more chiff than the Zimmer but we can agree that it is also more beautiful than the Zimmer. It isn't the only parameter to pipe sound too, of course.

Yes different, but still distracting. But I admit, that too much "white noise" is the worst offender.

Also, the Marcussen and Metzler weren't the worst offenders. Take this organ built by Paul Ott in the 50's (this particular Paul Ott is also responsible for quite a few by todays standards botched and unnecessarily invasive organ "restorations" - he restored original Schnitger organs to sound like his own chiffy machines)
https://youtu.be/Qa-tBI2wZQ4?t=1m43s

The Schnitger organs in Stade and Norden and the Bielefeld organ in Stade can be heard in Ott's version on Walter Kraft's Bach integral.

But there's actually something very charming about this - at least there is more character than the really offensively inoffensive organs that for instance Rübsam (first one, Metzler at Frauenfield and Marcussen at Freiburg) or Hurford uses in their Bach integrales.

I have had a few online discussions with Rübsam, and at some point I considered to ask him, why he chose this bland Metzler organ for his first Bach integral, but I changed my mind, being afraid to offend him.

[Harry]

Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck: Organ Works. "Psalms from Geneva"

Toccata's in C, G, A; Psalms No. 23, 36, 116, 140; Fantasia Chromatica in D; Echo Fantasia in C; Chorale "Allein Gott in der Höh sei Ehr'" & "Puer Nobis Nascitur"


Masaaki Suzuki, Organ.

"The attractively varied programme on this disc alternates secular music for the organ with Sweelinck's settings of psalms from the Genevan Psalter. Due to the suspicion with which the Dutch Reformed Church - and Calvin - regarded instrumental music in religious contexts, these settings were not intended to accompany the congregational singing, but were rather played either before or after the service, providing an opportunity for meditation and afterthought. They fill a similar role on this disc, sandwiched as they are between the more extrovert Toccatas and Fantasias, but also testify to the central place these psalms had in Sweelinck's work. As an epitaph put it, it was he 'who put to music David's royal word, And made it to resound in Zion, in Holland it was heard.' The organ chosen by Masaaki Suzuki is a splendid instrument built by Marc Garnier in 2002, according to the Northern German and Dutch style of the mid-17th century". Mean tone temperament with two sub semitones. I do not know what the pitch is.

First the sound of this organ is fantastic to start with, and it is also fantastically recorded.
As to the performance of Masaaki Suzuki, I can say that I like it very much. His tempi are vivid , almost a bit in the spirit of improvisation. And yet Suzuki has all under control. There is some intellectual rigour, in the presentation of these works, but that fits exactly around the music. It does not mean there is no spontaneity, on the contrary, but what I want to say is, that there is a rigidity of pulse, beautifully fitted in the context, but no hesitation to exploit the natural rich sonorities. It's very much a performance to my liking. In fact I rate this performance very high.

[Mandryka]

Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck: Organ Works. "Psalms from Geneva"

Toccata's in C, G, A; Psalms No. 23, 36, 116, 140; Fantasia Chromatica in D; Echo Fantasia in C; Chorale "Allein Gott in der Höh sei Ehr'" & "Puer Nobis Nascitur"


Masaaki Suzuki, Organ.

"The attractively varied programme on this disc alternates secular music for the organ with Sweelinck's settings of psalms from the Genevan Psalter. Due to the suspicion with which the Dutch Reformed Church - and Calvin - regarded instrumental music in religious contexts, these settings were not intended to accompany the congregational singing, but were rather played either before or after the service, providing an opportunity for meditation and afterthought. They fill a similar role on this disc, sandwiched as they are between the more extrovert Toccatas and Fantasias, but also testify to the central place these psalms had in Sweelinck's work. As an epitaph put it, it was he 'who put to music David's royal word, And made it to resound in Zion, in Holland it was heard.' The organ chosen by Masaaki Suzuki is a splendid instrument built by Marc Garnier in 2002, according to the Northern German and Dutch style of the mid-17th century". Mean tone temperament with two sub semitones. I do not know what the pitch is.

First the sound of this organ is fantastic to start with, and it is also fantastically recorded.
As to the performance of Masaaki Suzuki, I can say that I like it very much. His tempi are vivid , almost a bit in the spirit of improvisation. And yet Suzuki has all under control. There is some intellectual rigour, in the presentation of these works, but that fits exactly around the music. It does not mean there is no spontaneity, on the contrary, but what I want to say is, that there is a rigidity of pulse, beautifully fitted in the context, but no hesitation to exploit the natural rich sonorities. It's very much a performance to my liking. In fact I rate this performance very high.

Yes I think the organ's very good, I think that milk heard Suzuki give a Sweelinck recital using it. And your explanation of what he's doing, the pulse etc, is what I hear I think too. By coincidence I listened to some of the CD last week, just a couple of psalms,  when there was a discussion here about the Liège organ and different styles playing Sweelinck.

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

I like Daniel Oyarzabal's Bolero nowadays. Again the GMG never accepts pic from my iPad.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07Y13ZZQY


Post ed. The link shows the list of works, including Bolero, Pics @ Exhibit, Capriccio Espagnol, etc.

[JBS]

I like Daniel Oyarzabal's Bolero nowadays. Again the GMG never accepts pic from my iPad.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07Y13ZZQY

Links to the listing for the physical CD work better if it's not OOP
[asin]B07W47BVTR[/asin]

But the Amazon listing is very limited. What's on it? (I assume a certain work by Ravel...)

[milk]

Yes I think the organ's very good, I think that milk heard Suzuki give a Sweelinck recital using it. And your explanation of what he's doing, the pulse etc, is what I hear I think too. By coincidence I listened to some of the CD last week, just a couple of psalms,  when there was a discussion here about the Liège organ and different styles playing Sweelinck.

If this is the one in Japan then I heard it. I'm no one to ask because I've only seen a few organ recitals and only in Japan, but this recital blew me away. It's a pretty small space so the effect is weird there. Without a lot of reverberation you feel like you're in the pipes and Suzuki is so convincing. That Sweelinck music live sounded so improvisatory - I felt like I was on a space ship. I wonder what's a comparable recording of a baroque organ in a physically small venue. The other recitals I've heard have been on modern organs in pretty huge spaces.   

[Mandryka]

Suzuki's idea about how Sweelinck's music should go seems to me to fit in with what Egarr thinks

. . . It is hugely important to realize that in the Netherlands at this time the Amsterdam 'organist' job was a purely secular one. In 1578 Prince William of Orange deposed Catholicism, curtailing music in worship, except monophonic psalm-singing. The Calvinists (one of the strong religious presences in the city) also discou- raged musical performance in church. Sweelinck was a Catholic, but (like the situation with William Byrd in England) his fame and standing meant he received a tacit acceptance. Sweelinck's 'religious' music (psalms, motets, etc.) was designed mostly for private performance in homes (along with his many secular vocal works), not in church as such. His job actually entailed playing what were effectively concerts twice a day on the organ, which the Calvinists considered a worldly instrument. . . .

. . . At the time of writing I will have lived in Amsterdam for nearly three decades. It is, and always has been, a city full of different kinds of people, a centre for trade, and a massive tourist trap. Anyone who has travelled on a flight from the UK to Amsterdam on a Friday can be sure of seeing a certain kind of traveler off to see the more notorious sides of the city's delights. These have always been part of its history. In 1594 a certain Count Philip Louis II of Hanau-Münzenberg listed as his attractions: the artillery house, a live elephant in the hall of the archers' guild, and 'hearing the city's organist'. Yes, Sweelinck was as popular as a performing pachyderm! . . .

. . . When I moved to Amsterdam in 1990, a book entitled 'The UnDutchables: an observation of the Netherlands, its culture and its inhabitants' had just appeared. It is still extremely popular and is constantly being re-published with new material. It is a wonderful and funny book that tries to explain the Dutch and their special unique ways and world-view. It says the Dutch people are 'not lacking in self-esteem ... caught up in a cycle of endless envy ... always speak their mind ... frank, obstinate, blunt' and that 'the natives thrive on shaking their fingers at and scolding each other'. Certainly the Dutch have always been direct, blunt, perhaps even rude – reasons why they have been so successful as traders. Their attitudes to music making can certainly be strong, and at worst rigid. Sweelinck's music has suffered from many objective, colourless and academic performances and recordings in the name of 'authenticity'. The modern view of performing this music in a non- expressive and detached manner is totally contrary to its vibrant and exciting content. . . .

. . . There are many expressions that include the supposed Dutch cha- racter: 'Dutch courage', 'Dutch uncle' etc. 'A Dutch treat' is a particularly fine example, and anyone who has lived in Holland can attest to its basis in reality. An invitation to dinner or event will conclude with the guests 'going Dutch', that is paying for themselves. I do not think Sweelinck would have approved.

Methinks the unDutchables may be quite a useful book for people who post on this forum.