The Organ, Master of them all - general organ thread

Started by Harry, January 08, 2008, 01:08:57 AM

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premont

Quote from: Mandryka on December 30, 2017, 10:07:36 PM

I just discovered this Buxtehude/Hasse/Tunder CD on a Stellwagen organ. I'll listen to it properly later today.



I think Armin Schoof is a very fine organist, but the problem with recitals of this kind is, that the programming is a misk-mask of everything.
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Mandryka

#561
Quote from: (: premont :) on January 01, 2018, 02:13:33 AM
I think Armin Schoof is a very fine organist, but the problem with recitals of this kind is, that the programming is a misk-mask of everything.

mish-mash! in French it's micmac and I guess in Danish it's misk-mask -- it just seems surprising that so many languages have this bizarre turn of phrase/

I'm sure the squid will reply in due course but SS is a rather civilised place which I think you might enjoy

http://symphonyshare.blogspot.co.uk/

(I just did a terrible thing on a French forum where I confused la viole (viola da gamba) with le viol (rape)  :-[ )
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bioluminescentsquid

Quote from: (: premont :) on January 01, 2018, 01:33:02 AM
Would you mind to provide a link (or two) ?

Jeremy Joseph: https://www.amazon.com/Deborah-Florian-Boesch-Ensemble-Delirio/dp/B01NADTV1Y
de Vries: https://www.jsbrecords.nl/product/lubeck/

Is that the Pieter Jan Belder I think it is? I wasn't aware that he played recorder.

Quote from: (: premont :) on January 01, 2018, 01:33:02 AM
And which recordings do you consider later? The ones he made on the great new Kemper main organ around 1970?

I was referring to recordings Walter Kraft did on the original Totentanzorgel in 1941 before the church was bombed out. They're mighty hard to find, Lubeck's city library issued a CD with them over 18 years ago that's obviously no longer available, so PM me (or join Symphonyshare!) if you want them. I think they're quite sensational, even without all the historical significance. The later recordings are the still available Vox Buxtehude set, which is admittedly also not bad.

Que


premont

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premont

Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on January 01, 2018, 07:23:04 AM
Jeremy Joseph: https://www.amazon.com/Deborah-Florian-Boesch-Ensemble-Delirio/dp/B01NADTV1Y
de Vries: https://www.jsbrecords.nl/product/lubeck/

Thanks.

Quote from: bioluminescentsquid
I was referring to recordings Walter Kraft did on the original Totentanzorgel in 1941 before the church was bombed out. They're mighty hard to find, Lubeck's city library issued a CD with them over 18 years ago that's obviously no longer available, so PM me (or join Symphonyshare!) if you want them. I think they're quite sensational, even without all the historical significance. The later recordings are the still available Vox Buxtehude set, which is admittedly also not bad.

I did not know, that there were recordings of the original Totentanz organ in existence, Of course the Buxtehude set (1958) is later in relation to these, but he continued recording until around 1973.



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Mandryka

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Marc

Quote from: Mandryka on January 01, 2018, 09:37:47 AM
Here's the BWV 1004 chaconne played on the Groningen Schnitger!

https://www.youtube.com/v/aEArrg7Jp-Y

I like the comment "NO CLARITY, NO DEFINATION, ORGAN NOT THE RIGHT PERIOD FOR THIS MUSIC, IT SOUNDS MUDDY AND MURKY."

bioluminescentsquid

Quote from: Marc on January 01, 2018, 09:47:36 AM
I like the comment "NO CLARITY, NO DEFINATION, ORGAN NOT THE RIGHT PERIOD FOR THIS MUSIC, IT SOUNDS MUDDY AND MURKY."

BUT THE ORGAN WAS BUILT IN 1692 HOW IS IT NOT THE RIGHT PERIOD FOR THIS MUSIC, LOVELY MUSIC LOTS OF FORCE, LOTS OF GRAVINTAS  :)

Mandryka

#569
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on December 31, 2017, 05:36:13 PM

By the way, how do you think of Kraft's Totentanzorgel recordings on SS? I think they're remarkable, all the mysticism without the kitschy (incorrect expression?) neo-baroque registrations that he uses on later recordings.

I just listened to the two Bux pieces, I haven't heard the Bruhns yet, for the first time, I thought that the toccata, Buxwv 155, was fabulous, made my jaw drop.

the later recording of Buxwv 155 takes less time, and I think and isn't in the zone like the earlier recording, he's not in an alpha-state, if you know what I mean.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Marc

Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on January 01, 2018, 09:58:14 AM
BUT THE ORGAN WAS BUILT IN 1692 HOW IS IT NOT THE RIGHT PERIOD FOR THIS MUSIC, LOVELY MUSIC LOTS OF FORCE, LOTS OF GRAVINTAS  :)

That's why I like the comment. ;)

About the organ though, more specific: the organ was built around 1450, rebuilt around 1480, expanded in 1542, 1564 and around 1630.
In 1692 Arp Schnitger did a 'grande baroque' rebuilt and added the 32 ft pedal towers.
Further expansion in 1728 (Franz Caspar Schnitger) and in 1740 (Albertus Anthoni Hinsz).

Rebuilt and 'ruined' in the 19th century and in the first half of the 20th century.
Almost destroyed, but, thanks to Cor Edskes, restored and rebuilt back to the '1740 state' by Jürgen Ahrend during the period 1977-1984.


premont

Quote from: Mandryka on January 01, 2018, 09:37:47 AM
Here's the BWV 1004 chaconne played on the Groningen Schnitger!

https://www.youtube.com/v/aEArrg7Jp-Y

Well, Kollmannsperger plays exellent, buiilding this difficult piece up in a splendid way, I am however not that enthusiastic about the arrangement, which in many of the sections sounds rather un-Bachian.
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premont

#572
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on December 31, 2017, 05:36:13 PM
By the way, how do you think of Kraft's Totentanzorgel recordings on SS? I think they're remarkable, all the mysticism without the kitschy (incorrect expression?) neo-baroque registrations that he uses on later recordings.

Now I have listened to the Bruhns and the two Buxtehude pieces. I think Kraft not unexpectedly plays as a young man. I find his later style (Buxtehude 1958) more mature, considered and balanced even if his registrations was a tad too "full". Never-the-less highly interesting to hear how he played in his younger days, where he already was a pioneer as to North German Baroque music.

Concerning the organ I would never have spotted it, had I not known. It sounds not that Baroque to me, This may be due to recording technique with lack of higher partials, and that the organ probably wasn't in its original Baroque state (maybe "verschlimmbessert" in the 19th century), and it sounds conspicuously as if it is equally tuned. I have tried to find specific information about this old organ, but have not been successful so far. Paradoxically the reconstructed Totentanz organ Karl Kemper made after the war - based upon a description of the old organ, sounds more archaic and authentic Baroque to me, and it is also tuned in some modified meantone. Alas this Kemper organ was later dismantled and replaced by a horrible Führer organ totally without style.



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bioluminescentsquid

Quote from: (: premont :) on January 01, 2018, 12:40:05 PM
Now I have listened to the Bruhns and the two Buxtehude pieces. I think Kraft not unexpectedly plays as a young man. I find his later style (Buxtehude 1958) more mature, considered and balanced even if his registrations was a tad too "full". Never-the-less highly interesting to hear how he played in his younger days, where he already was a pioneer as to North German Baroque music.

Concerning the organ I would never have spotted it, had I not known. It sounds not that Baroque to me, This may be due to recording technique with lack of higher partials, and that the organ probably wasn't in its original Baroque state (maybe "verschlimmbessert" in the 19th century), and it sounds conspicuously as if it is equally tuned. I have tried to find specific information about this old organ, but have not been successful so far. Paradoxically the reconstructed Totentanz organ Karl Kemper made after the war - based upon a description of the old organ, sounds more archaic and authentic Baroque to me, and it is also tuned in some modified meantone. Alas this Kemper organ was later dismantled and replaced by a horrible Führer organ totally without style.

Built by Johannes Stephani in the 1477, Ruckpositiv added by Jacob Scherer in 1558, Brustwerk and new reeds added by Henning Kroger in 1622, rebuilt by Stellwagen in 1655 (that's the state Buxtehude played it in), altered slightly but not too radically (as in re-tuning, a few stops taken out of use) in the 19th century (I guess all the money was spent on the new grand organ), restored by Kemper in 1937.

A good stoplist here: https://books.google.com/books?id=qSXGOoambNcC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA81#v=onepage&q&f=false

For the sound...
I don't think we could say that the organ is in Romantic state, and if anything it would have sounded shriller than the typical transitional Rennaissance/Baroque organ due to Orgelbewegung tastes.

The "Sister" Stellwagen in the Jacobikirche also doesn't sound as shrill as organs built by Schnitger et al., I think they were aiming for a milder, more vocal sound (not to mention the fact that the Hauptwerk there is all Gothic up to the mixtures!).

But honestly the recording is poor, so we can't tell much at all. It does sound equally tuned (I think organs were restored equally tuned up until the Ahrends) and tuned at A~490 like its sister in the Jacobikirche.

But I do hear some very juicy reeds in there! (the Krummhorn by Kroger?)

I agree with the "young man" comment by the way, I was surprised by the speed at which Kraft took the Bruhns!

Meanwhile, I do think the Walcha recordings in St. Jacobi are interesting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEQVlGzusWQ

premont

Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on January 01, 2018, 08:56:55 PM
Built by Johannes Stephani in the 1477, Ruckpositiv added by Jacob Scherer in 1558, Brustwerk and new reeds added by Henning Kroger in 1622, rebuilt by Stellwagen in 1655 (that's the state Buxtehude played it in), altered slightly but not too radically (as in re-tuning, a few stops taken out of use) in the 19th century (I guess all the money was spent on the new grand organ), restored by Kemper in 1937.

A good stoplist here: https://books.google.com/books?id=qSXGOoambNcC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA81#v=onepage&q&f=false

Thanks for this, which also reminds me of the Snyder biography, which I since long have intended to acquire.

Quote from: bioluminescentsquid
For the sound...
I don't think we could say that the organ is in Romantic state, and if anything it would have sounded shriller than the typical transitional Rennaissance/Baroque organ due to Orgelbewegung tastes.

No I did not mean romantic state, but that it maybe had been repaired with no particular style in mind.

Quote from: bioluminescentsquid
But honestly the recording is poor, so we can't tell much at all. It does sound equally tuned (I think organs were restored equally tuned up until the Ahrends) and tuned at A~490 like its sister in the Jacobikirche.

There are many examples of unequally tuned more or less optimally restored organs before Jürgen Ahrend,

Quote from: bioluminescentsquid
But I do hear some very juicy reeds in there! (the Krummhorn by Kroger?)

Yes, in the middle of the Toccata. I think he plays this section on the Rp using the Trichterregal 8'. I have heard him play this piece in Vor Frelsers Kirke, Copenhagen, and he obviously used the Rp Krumhorn 8', even if the Bv has a suitable regal 8'.
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bioluminescentsquid



Finally a good recording for these composers that I've stayed away because of a lack of sympathetic recordings? Played on a very early 16th century swallow-nest organ in Lorris-in-Gâtinais.

Mandryka

#576
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on January 02, 2018, 01:29:00 PM


Finally a good recording for these composers that I've stayed away because of a lack of sympathetic recordings? Played on a very early 16th century swallow-nest organ in Lorris-in-Gâtinais.

Yes, I know it and like it very much, that was the recording that prompted me to explore Kerckhoven and Cornet. This whole period of Spanish Netherlands is interesting and I'd like to know much more about the music it inspired. By coincidence I've just finished reading a fabulous novel about it, called L'Oeuvre au Noir by Marguerite Yourcenar.

Colcomb did an excellent CD of Spanish organ music too.
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Mandryka

#577
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on December 28, 2017, 01:24:46 AM

I really dig those recordings that have ensembles playing with historical organs. [/img]

I just thought of this comment while listening to Martin Gester's Steigleder CD - it's very good I think, both performance and music.
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bioluminescentsquid

#578
Quote from: Mandryka on January 05, 2018, 10:46:23 AM
I just thought of this comment while listening to Martin Gester's Steigleder CD - it's very good I think, both performance and music.

Thanks, I wasn't aware of Martin Gester. It seems like he has quite a lot of CDs with him playing along an ensemble with grand organ. I just listened to his Bach and was quite impressed.

Edit: organ playing is a bit too brisk for me

Mandryka

#579
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on January 05, 2018, 06:46:16 PM


Edit: organ playing is a bit too brisk for me

In the steigleder I thought you'd think he was too slow! Re his Bach on organ, the one I like most is the violin sonatas with Alice Pierot, but the are quite fast.
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