Who the better Classical Composer, Yanni or Enya?

[Josquin des Prez]

Consider the state of classical music.  The only living classical composer which I like

I don't mean to infer more then necessary, but i hope you know your own personal tastes do not define the 'state' of classical music.

[mahlertitan]

. . . I just wrote that I'm being facetious by posting this on a classical forum.  The point is philosophical: Why  should their be such rigid cultural distinctions between Classical/Pop/Jazz?  Such lines are crossed all the time in popular genres such as Punk/Metal/Rock/Rap even Folk/Punk/Anarchist. 

this isn't a philosophical thread, nor is this a philosophical forum.

[Sungam]

I don't mean to infer more then necessary, but i hope you know your own personal tastes do not define the 'state' of classical music.

Perhaps if the classical community would pay more attention to people with my opinion, their community orchestra's would be able to stay open and cd sales wouldn't be below that of esoteric metal genres.

[cx]

Perhaps if the classical community would pay more attention to people with my opinion, their community orchestra's would be able to stay open and cd sales wouldn't be below that of esoteric metal genres.

What makes you think so?

[Harry]

Could this be moved to the Diner please, since this music is not classical, and therefore not part of this thread.
Thanks

[AnthonyAthletic]

Could this be moved to the Diner please, since this music is not classical, and therefore not part of this thread.
Thanks

What's really sad Harry is the fact that both artists have been in the Classic FM chart list over here in the UK as "Classical" 

Takes crossover to the extreme!!

[Harry]

What's really sad Harry is the fact that both artists have been in the Classic FM chart list over here in the UK as "Classical" 

Takes crossover to the extreme!!

I am shocked.

[sound67]

Some people feel Enya shouldn't be in the same category as Yanni, but I disagree.  Her music is lyric and very harmonic, unlike all the distortion and bleeps and bloops of popular music.

They ARE in the same category. Dreck.

Thomas

[knight66]

I don't think there would be any point in going to a primarily 'Rock' forum and trying to discuss Tallis. If there was a section set aside to cater to different tastes, then fine. Here, The Diner often contains such discussions; as indeed there are people here who like and will discuss other areas of music.

You claimed the initial post was facetious, indeed it was. As such I think you are getting quite a polite hearing for your world view on how to make classical music more popular and your instructions on how we all ought to think and behave, thanks.

Mike

[71 dB]

What's really sad Harry is the fact that both artists have been in the Classic FM chart list over here in the UK as "Classical" 

Takes crossover to the extreme!!

That's possible because they need listeners. Enya & Yanni bring them. Here in Finland the Classic Radio isn't that bad but Hollywood movie soundtracks are played sometimes as classical music. 

[Sungam]

I don't think there would be any point in going to a primarily 'Rock' forum and trying to discuss Tallis. If there was a section set aside to cater to different tastes, then fine. Here, The Diner often contains such discussions; as indeed there are people here who like and will discuss other areas of music.

You claimed the initial post was facetious, indeed it was. As such I think you are getting quite a polite hearing for your world view on how to make classical music more popular and your instructions on how we all ought to think and behave, thanks.

Mike

You guys have to be kidding me.  Half the people here feel that replying with "There is nothing wrong with the state of classical music.  We've been polite to hear you suggest that it there is something wrong, now run along" is listening "politely".  I wasn't asking anyone for a polite hearing, I was trying to stir some interest the problems classical music has been facing for the past 80 years.

You act like I'm tell you all how "ought to think and behave".  ??  You mean by posting things like:

. . . I just wrote that I'm being facetious by posting this on a classical forum.  The point is philosophical: Why  should their be such rigid cultural distinctions between Classical/Pop/Jazz?  Such lines are crossed all the time in popular genres such as Punk/Metal/Rock/Rap even Folk/Punk/Anarchist.  If I asked such a question on a Metal forum, they would point to hundreds of threads that dealt with musicians that made various genre crossovers.  Gym Class Heroes is a pop group, not a hit of rock 'n roll, yet their music is also purely acoustic.

Consider the state of classical music.  The only living classical composer which I like is Philip Glass, a man who set out into other cultures to learn a different kind of music because he was so frustrated with the instruction he received at Juilliard.  Where is all the great classical music?  I'm not the only one with this opinion, look at classicalarchives.com/articles/ and read the articles dealing with "the death of classical music".

Look at all the discussions on this forum.  How many of the composers mentioned are still alive?  Our generation should be be burying out the past with great new music that we, or people we know, are involved in making.  And in a way, that is what is happening. While most indie music is keeping itself confined to the 3-5 minute length limit, with the notable exception of Post-Rock, much of it is inventive and catchy; something that should be familiar to lovers of Mozart and Beethoven.

Our composers who post their own music hear isn't bad, but consider.  How is this music involving anyone beyond the composer who posts it?  Where is the community orchestras getting together to preform the best new music in the area?  I really expected the reaction I got at the beginning of the thread, but I was hoping that there would be some self-critical analysis of our own listening habits, not to mention the related fields of music production and creation.

And then being told that I'm telling people how to think and act?  Quiet the opposite.  I'm asking everyone here why they don't question how they themselves think and act.  Why is this a problem?  Why is it surprising? 

[knight66]

Yes, fine, but you scuppered yourself from leaving it on the classical board with the title and what transpired from it and so, it sits here and can be discussed as seriously as you like.

Mike

[m_gigena]

I wasn't asking anyone for a polite hearing, I was trying to stir some interest the problems classical music has been facing for the past 80 years.

You don't seem to be able to separate NEW AGE from CLASSICAL. I guess so as you proposed us to come up with definitions I suppose you can not forge.
Then how do you think you can produce a good idea on how to save the classical music? And after reading your first, and subsequents posts; why should we take those ideas, if ever generated, as valid?

[Cato]

I just bought a disk full of short compositions by Chopin, ones that I believe he composed to play in bars.  Is it not classical?

Yes. 

[Larry Rinkel]

The hostility of some respondents here to the issues raised by Sungam is interesting. I think the problem of what music is "classical" vs. what "popular" is both intriguing and entirely suited to discussion on a classical forum. It cannot be simply a matter of "length," as there are very short Beethoven bagatelles, Chopin mazurkas, and the like. Nor can it necessarily be a matter of "complexity," as there are any number of Schubert songs that can be cited for their simplicity. Nor can it even be a matter of "catchiness," as there are certainly a number of classical tunes, like Papageno's songs from The Magic Flute, that are as catchy as anything popular.

An interesting approach to what distinguishes classical from popular music is found in Julian Johnson's Who Needs Classical Music? Even if you don't want to get the book and read it, the comments on Amazon.com will give a pretty good sense of what his argument is all about, and some of its shortcomings.

[Larry Rinkel]

this isn't a philosophical thread, nor is this a philosophical forum.

Why should the "philosophy" of what distinguishes classical from popular music be off-limits to a classical music forum?

[Sungam]

The above two posts are exactly what I was looking for.  He could be completely against popular music, or against any real change in how things are done within the classical community, the only thing I was looking for was that the subject itself is "entirely suited to discussion on a classical forum".

I probably would have had more luck had I not titled the thread "Yanni or Enya" but I figured people who appreciate the irony of asking such a question on a classical forum.  What I wonder is why this topic was moved to the diner, which is limited to "Discuss anything, music excepted."

You don't seem to be able to separate NEW AGE from CLASSICAL. I guess so as you proposed us to come up with definitions I suppose you can not forge.
Then how do you think you can produce a good idea on how to save the classical music? And after reading your first, and subsequents posts; why should we take those ideas, if ever generated, as valid?

edit: I know perfectly well that Yanni and Enya do not fit the classical mold.  I've posted this ealier, my first post and thread title was made facetiously, but the point is serious.

How could I produce a good idea that will "save" classical music?  I haven't a clue.  Luckly, other music geners, such as punk, crust, and other anarchist related music genres are alive and kicking more than ever despite the fact that ten years ago, punk was declared dead in much the same way classical music is thought to be dead by many people.

Don't get me wrong, I hate the music of "punk" and "anarcho".  What I like is the culture and the approach though D.I.Y. with their being almost as many bands as their are groups of friends.  Imagine if 1 out of every 5 classical enthusiasts actually created good music, and almost everyone who listend to music could play a classical instrument well.  It would get friends involved, family involved, everyone.  People would want to learn music theory, and could rearrange music to suite the different tastes of different groups of people whenever it was desired.  The subtlies and power of classical music could be made accessable to many more people, and popular music wouldn't have to be limited to the lowest common denomitor.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe this is stupid.  At least I'm trying something different, which is certianly what our most beloved classical composers tried to do.  But why?  Why shouldn't we be re-arragning music to suit our needs, or the needs of a particular audiance as someone who make speeches would do?

[Larry Rinkel]

What I wonder is why this topic was moved to the diner, which is limited to "Discuss anything, music excepted."

Indeed. Let us move it back.

[knight66]

No, I don't think we will move it back, I have had several requests to move it to here and reading to the point I moved it, it seemed to me to be in the wrong place. I do agree that the issue is one of interest but when a new poster comes in, we cannot read into the posts to discern whether there is irony or an intent to be completely serious. When it says 'Music excepted' in the Diner, I guess that should read 'Classical Music Excepted'. Only Rob can sort that one out, so if anyone would care to drop him a PM, I should think he would act on it.

On the old board there were numerous threads on all kinds of music on the Diner, many of them perfectly serious discussions. It is not a second class citizen here. I also agree that I can see no reason not to draw philosophy or any ology into it if it makes for an interesting discussion.

Cheers,

Mike

[orbital]

Don't get me wrong, I hate the music of "punk" and "anarcho".  What I like is the culture and the approach though D.I.Y. with their being almost as many bands as their are groups of friends.  Imagine if 1 out of every 5 classical enthusiasts actually created good music, and almost everyone who listend to music could play a classical instrument well.  It would get friends involved, family involved, everyone.  People would want to learn music theory, and could rearrange music to suite the different tastes of different groups of people whenever it was desired.  The subtlies and power of classical music could be made accessable to many more people, and popular music wouldn't have to be limited to the lowest common denomitor.

We have been through that period of time where a lot of families and groups were deeply involved with classical music. But like anything else from that time period it has ended. The times have changed, and almost everything we do today has to do with quick and easy access.

I am sure most of us here (with music excepted) follow the same ways of what people do with music. Access things that we need as easily as we can and move on.

The music styles you have mentioned (punk, anarcho, etc) are relatively easier to compose and perform. Anyone with  a basic understanding of music and the verse-bridge-chorus mold, if they have the talent for it, can actually produce that music. That is not putting them down, don't get me wrong. It still needs dedication and hard work to succeed in, but the creation of the art form itself is much easier compared to the the complexity and educational background needed to achieve what has been (and is being) written in classical music. So it is no surprise that less and less people are concerning themselves with this art. Both from the artist's and the listener's point of view.

I guess what we can do is to do as much as we can to help the community and get engaged if we can, but we should never again expect a mass interest in classical music.