Is Mozart Greater Than Wagner in Opera ?

[M forever]

As to your insistence on throwing "fascist" around at the slightest (deserved) provocation, to quote the great film, The Princess Bride, "I do not think it means what you think it means."

No, it doesn't, in fact Mafia in the sense of organized crime and fascism have always proven to be mutually exclusive. History, I guess, is yet another subject Mr Corkin doesn't know too much about.

people can say what they like at my place! Things that have caused riots and chaos here!

You?

[marvinbrown]

I was being deadly serious Marvin! But only superfans of Mozart and Wagner would regard them as the twin peaks of opera, and I doubt there are too many people who are superfans of both of these composers. For me Handel and Beethoven are the twin peaks, and Beethoven isn't even an opera composer compared to the others. But B and H are much closer artistically than M and W!

  Oh Rod,  I regret to inform you that in the opera world most opera fans would tell you that the  the "holy trinity" of opera are - MOZART, WAGNER and VERDI!   It is simply not true that only superfans of Mozart and Wagner would regard them as the twin peaks of opera.  It is generally accepted in the opera world that Mozart and Wagner are two of the "holy trinity" of opera.  I would even argue that the following ranking accurately depicts what most opera fans consider to be the GREATEST operas and opera composers in the history of music:

  http://www.digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/best-classic-opera.html

      While I admire your passion for Handel I regret to inform you that you are in the minority who believe that Handel as an opera composer towers above Mozart and Wagner and Verdi.

  marvin
     

[marvinbrown]

Quite the contrary. The easiest refutation to such a statement is to look at what operas are most often performed in actual opera houses. Of course we all know that Handel's operas were not seriously revived until several decades ago, but if one looks at the database of the Metropolitan Opera in New York, for example, one sees that the most performed composers of opera include Puccini, Verdi, Mozart, and Wagner. The notion that there are only a few "superfans" of these super-popular composers will not stand up to any scrutiny.

http://66.187.153.86/archives/frame.htm
(click Repertory Report)

  Thank you for posting that Sforzando.  It further bolsters my post in response to Rod's perception that "only superfans of Wagner and Mozart reagrd them as the twin peaks of opera".  Rod's perception is simply not true.

  marvin

[Rod Corkin]

  Oh Rod,  I regret to inform you that in the opera world most opera fans would tell you that the  the "holy trinity" of opera are - MOZART, WAGNER and VERDI! 

You think I don't know this? But I don't agree with any of the established 'Holly Trinities'. This opera trinity is outdated from a Handellian perspective, because it is only in the past decade or so that the quality of Handel's operas has become appreciated. But if you want to remove one of the 3 above and insert Handel in his place I would be content.
 

      While I admire your passion for Handel I regret to inform you that you are in the minority who believe that Handel as an opera composer towers above Mozart and Wagner and Verdi.

  marvin
     

I am happy to be in that minority Marvin, if the average CM fan agreed with me I'd start to have doubts about whether I was right. The thing is everyone has heard many of Mozart's, Wagner's and Verdi's operas, myself included. But on record, at least, I have heard in addition about 30 Handel operas. Can any member here match that? Handel's second most popular opera at the time was 'Ottone', who here has heard this other than myself? My decision is based on a level of comparative assessment that maybe others here cannot quite emulate?

I'm not saying there is no room for M, V and W, simply that whatever they have done has been done before by Handel in one way or another far more efficiently and effectively and with far better tunes for your dollar.

[PerfectWagnerite]

You think I don't know this? But I don't agree with any of the established 'Holly Trinities'.

Oh no, are you really 71 dB in disguise ?

[(poco) Sforzando]

You think I don't know this?

Corkin on 1/14: "But only superfans of Mozart and Wagner would regard them as the twin peaks of opera, and I doubt there are too many people who are superfans of both of these composers."

[Rod Corkin]

Corkin on 1/14: "But only superfans of Mozart and Wagner would regard them as the twin peaks of opera, and I doubt there are too many people who are superfans of both of these composers."

The trinity does not mean that opera lovers love all 3 in equal measure, it means that they are regarded as the 3 most important opera composers. That is something totally different. I still would be surprised is Wagner fanatics loved Mozart equally!

[Rod Corkin]

Oh no, are you really 71 dB in disguise ?

Maybe 71db is ME in disguise...

Remember the total pandemonium I created here when i suggested Handel should replace Bach in the 'general' Trinity (Beethoven, Bach, Mozart)? It was like the forum went into mass hysteria! Ah those were the days...

[marvinbrown]

You think I don't know this? But I don't agree with any of the established 'Holly Trinities'. This opera trinity is outdated from a Handellian perspective, because it is only in the past decade or so that the quality of Handel's operas has become appreciated. But if you want to remove one of the 3 above and insert Handel in his place I would be content.
 
I am happy to be in that minority Marvin, if the average CM fan agreed with me I'd start to have doubts about whether I was right. The thing is everyone has heard many of Mozart's, Wagner's and Verdi's operas, myself included. But on record, at least, I have heard in addition about 30 Handel operas. Can any member here match that? Handel's second most popular opera at the time was 'Ottone', who here has heard this other than myself? My decision is based on a level of comparative assessment that maybe others here cannot quite emulate?

I'm not saying there is no room for M, V and W, simply that whatever they have done has been done before by Handel in one way or another far more efficiently and effectively and with far better tunes for your dollar.

  Rod, opera happens to be my favorite "genre" of music and in the interests of understanding you better I would like to ask you why you believe Handel as an opera composer, and only as far as opera is concerned, has been neglected?  Is it not possible that a lack of appreciation of Handel's operas is in some way a reflection on their quality?

  marvin

   

  marvin 

[Rod Corkin]

  Rod, opera happens to be my favorite "genre" of music and in the interests of understanding you better I would like to ask you why you believe Handel as an opera composer, and only as far as opera is concerned, has been neglected?  Is it not possible that a lack of appreciation of Handel's operas is in some way a reflection on their quality?

  marvin 

This is why established perceptions are completely and utterly wrong. Handel operas are filling houses all over Europe and the US these days because performing editions have become available only recently. I suspect the Establishment obsession with Bach is linked to what can only be described as the suppression of Handel's music for 100 years. Even Handel's greatest work, Theodora, did not have a performing edition in the modern era until about 1990. Imagine that happening to the St Matthew?? No chance! Many of the Handel opera recordings I have are world premieres and they have only been recording in the 90's and this century. See what I mean? It is you guys who are behind the times. you wipe the cobwebs of your Callas albums, it is Handel's music is now at the cutting edge of modern opera performance, because for the first time in centuries they can actually hear it, and hear it performed as it should be.

But enough of this, I've had my fill of this topic you'll be relieved to read, you can go back to Mozart and Wagner now. If you want to talk about Handel, and hear all this stuff I'm talking about, you know where to go.

Adios.

[(poco) Sforzando]

This is why established perceptions are completely and utterly wrong. Handel operas are filling houses all over Europe and the US these days because performing editions have become available only recently. I suspect the Establishment obsession with Bach is linked to what can only be described as the suppression of Handel's music for 100 years. Even Handel's greatest work, Theodora, did not have a performing edition in the modern era until about 1990. Imagine that happening to the St Matthew?? No chance! Many of the Handel opera recordings I have are world premieres and they have only been recording in the 90's and this century. See what I mean? It is you guys who are behind the times. you wipe the cobwebs of your Callas albums, it is Handel's music is now at the cutting edge of modern opera performance, because for the first time in centuries they can actually hear it, and hear it performed as it should be.

But enough of this, I've had my fill of this topic you'll be relieved to read, you can go back to Mozart and Wagner now. If you want to talk about Handel, and hear all this stuff I'm talking about, you know where to go.

Adios.

There was no "suppression," and no "Establishment obsession." Handel's operas and oratorios had been published in Friedrich Chrysander's edition in the last four decades of the 19th century; these editions were not always accurate, but anyone interested in performing a large Handel vocal work could have easily used one of these scores. Brahms, who knew a thing or two about music, subscribed to both the Chrysander Handel edition and the Bach Gesellschaft edition, which was similarly engaged about this time in publishing the complete works of Bach. When a Bach volume arrived, Brahms would drop everything to study it. When a Handel volume arrived, Brahms would say, "It is certainly interesting, and when I have a chance I will look at it."

Worth reading:
http://music.guardian.co.uk/classical/story/0,,2050995,00.html

[M forever]

I'm not saying there is no room for M, V and W, simply that whatever they have done has been done before by Handel in one way or another far more efficiently and effectively and with far better tunes for your dollar.

I think you really are the silliest poster we ever had here. Some other experts, like 71dB and Saul (where is he, BTW? we miss him!) are at least original and entertaining, in a way. You are just totally limited. To even begin comparing these wildly diverse composers in such a way instead of just appreciating their very different works for what they are, I think one has to be extremely limited in on's musical outlook and understanding.

I have a request: can you post your picture here? Basically every poster here has his picture in the "What do you look like?" thread, so we know what face we have to associate with what poster.

BTW, the guy in your picture on the left isn't actually Händel, it's Beethoven.

BTW2, I can understand your desperate advocacy for Händel to a certain degree because I know that English music lovers suffer heavily from the fact that they don't really have any "great" composers. So they have a tendency to cling to Händel. But Händel was actually German, too. Sorry, dude.

[PerfectWagnerite]

BTW2, I can understand your desperate advocacy for Händel to a certain degree because I know that English music lovers suffer heavily from the fact that they don't really have any "great" composers.

Well they have a few: Britten, Purcell, and Vaughan Williams. So maybe they don't have Bruckner or Mahler but composers on that level you can count on one hand.

[Don]

Handel's second most popular opera at the time was 'Ottone', who here has heard this other than myself?

I'm confident that plenty of folks have heard Ottone; I've had it from Hyperion for over 10 years now.  Your error here is in assuming that other people don't find Handel as great an opera composer as Wagner/Mozart/Verdi because of lack of exposure to his operas.

Personally, I find Handel's operas highly enjoyable, and yes, the tunes are wonderful.  But that doesn't lead to a put-down of other composers, just being placed on an equal footing.

[Don]

Maybe 71db is ME in disguise...

Remember the total pandemonium I created here when i suggested Handel should replace Bach in the 'general' Trinity (Beethoven, Bach, Mozart)? It was like the forum went into mass hysteria! Ah those were the days...

You sure do exaggerate.  There was no total pandemonium, just a bunch of members letting you know that your comments were unreasonable and often stupid.  I remember that I was the guy who was having fun giving you an up to date count of your stupid statements.

[knight66]

There was no mass hysteria either; in terms of membership, very few people got involved and if there was any hysteria, it was of the laughing variety.

Mike

[M forever]

Well they have a few: Britten, Purcell, and Vaughan Williams. So maybe they don't have Bruckner or Mahler but composers on that level you can count on one hand.

Depends on how many fingers you have on one hand. Let's see, just the "usual" suspects, Bach, Händel, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Weber, Schubert, Schumann, Mendelssohn, Wagner, Brahms, Bruckner, Strauss, Mahler, Hindemith, that's already 15, maybe +- 2 or so - man, how many fingers do you have on one hand? 15? Do you use all of them for typing? If you start counting composers comparable in influence to Britten or Vaughan Williams, you will easily reach 30+. Just on one hand.

[M forever]

You sure do exaggerate.  There was no total pandemonium, just a bunch of members letting you know that your comments were unreasonable and often stupid. 

Man, that is so mean of you to say, after all, that is Mr Corkin's only source of self-confidence, that he "dares" to challenge opinions held by and defended by a vicious "fascist mafia". You are totally pulling the rug from under his feet! But then you are right, too.