Is Mozart Greater Than Wagner in Opera ?

[M forever]

By the way--thanks Luke & M & Knight & PSmith & others for joining in and raising the level of discourse in this thread to something far more interesting that the banal mudslinging the OP had in mind.

Well, too late now, Mr Corkin has returned and dragged the thread down to his level. Why do people feed the trolls?

[PSmith08]

Well, too late now, Mr Corkin has returned and dragged the thread down to his level. Why do people feed the trolls?

Because it's funny? If you can't engage with their arguments, having none with which to engage, then you can always have some fun.

Mozart was not a 'hit' writer like Handel, nor as good a dramatist, but regardless I think Handel's method was perfect for this form of music.

If you say so.

[M forever]

Because it's funny? If you can't engage with their arguments, having none with which to engage, then you can always have some fun.

Is this your idea of fun:

If you say so.

Although I don't think I could have come up with a better reply to the statement you replied to either. That is just too silly, silliness on an epic scale. That is so hollow and meaningless that it threatens to suck your brain out through your eyes when you read it. Especially since it says absolutely nothing. There is no content there, just attitude and posing. There must be some kind of powerful mental vacuum in Mr Corkin's head, like a black hole. Pretty dangerous, actually, if you think about it.

[PSmith08]

Is this your idea of fun:

Sure. I mean, why not? It's not a lugubrious task to "engage" with our correspondent's "ideas." Not by a long shot.

Although I don't think I could have come up with a better reply to the statement you replied to either. That is just too silly, silliness on an epic scale. That is so hollow and meaningless that it threatens to suck your brain out through your eyes when you read it. Especially since it says absolutely nothing. There is no content there, just attitude and posing. There must be some kind of powerful mental vacuum in Mr Corkin's head, like a black hole. Pretty dangerous, actually, if you think about it.

It's actually anti-content, since it doesn't make linguistic sense. What he has more or less said is, "Fact A, Fact B, and in spite of A+B, Opinion 1." That is to say, he treats his statements of Handelian superiority like objections to his final statement. That makes it a contradiction, since Facts A and B support his Opinion 1. In other words, the statement collapses in on itself, making it a content black hole. Confronted with something with such a powerful pull, one can only resign and accept that nothing is going to change an information singularity.

[Rod Corkin]

dude, Seriously, say you love Handel all you want, why do have to dis Mozart? Especially after that we all know that you obviously know nothing about Mozart's music. So please, stop. Aren't you even a little embarrassed about what you have said?

This whole topic is a bit crazy if you ask me, but it is pitting Mozart against Wagner, so you shouldn't really complain about people being critical, the topic almost demands it. But here if you are critical of Mozart you get called an idiot. Sorry, but I know a good aria from a bland one, even is some other people dont.

This forum is full of topics like this, too many even for me!

[M forever]

It's actually anti-content, since it doesn't make linguistic sense. What he has more or less said is, "Fact A, Fact B, and in spite of A+B, Opinion 1." That is to say, he treats his statements of Handelian superiority like objections to his final statement. That makes it a contradiction, since Facts A and B support his Opinion 1. In other words, the statement collapses in on itself, making it a content black hole. Confronted with something with such a powerful pull, one can only resign and accept that nothing is going to change an information singularity.

Yes, you described that very well. Anti-content=anti-matter.

[longears]

This whole topic is a bit crazy if you ask me, but it is pitting Mozart against Wagner, so you shouldn't really complain about people being critical, the topic almost demands it.

But you must consider the source.  "Wagner rules, Mozart drools" is an option that would scream "agenda-pushing crank" even if you didn't know Pinky. But perhaps you didn't notice, since his agenda substantially overlaps yours. 

But here if you are critical of Mozart you get called an idiot.

Nah, only the idiots would call you an idiot for that (there are one or two about).  I think most folks here welcome criticism--in the grown-up sense of informed analyses and evaluations.  In fact, many if not most come here primarily to seek classical music criticism from lay sources.  We might not find much, but many of us stay for the floor show.

Sorry, but I know a good aria from a bland one, even is some other people dont.

Now this is the sort of statement that gets people called "idiots." Perhaps not if it were backed up by informed comments supporting its validity, but in this case, since it refers directly to your earlier comments describing Mozart's arias as "unmelodic & unmemorable," it's clearly false--and absurdly so, considering the weight of two centuries of informed opinion.  What's more, your aggressiveness in pushing an agenda steeped in such displays of benighted arrogance virtually assures that you will be personally rebuked and ridiculed, rather than compassionately guided out of the black hole of ignorance in which you presently reside.

The good news is that you are not condemned to this sorrowful condition, for you are your own jailer, and you have the key to release yourself.  All that's required is to take a big gulp of humble pie, wash it down by swallowing your pride, and then admit that you really don't know very much at all.  In a heartbeat your world will change.  When you empty your cup of the half-baked ideas you mistake for knowledge, you make room for real knowledge to be poured in.

[Rod Corkin]

The good news is that you are not condemned to this sorrowful condition, for you are your own jailer, and you have the key to release yourself.  All that's required is to take a big gulp of humble pie, wash it down by swallowing your pride, and then admit that you really don't know very much at all.  In a heartbeat your world will change.  When you empty your cup of the half-baked ideas you mistake for knowledge, you make room for real knowledge to be poured in.

The good news is I am not bound by the fascistic tendencies that permeate this forum! I've paid good money to hear Don Giovani and Cosi live not so long ago. and have heard a good few CDs or extracts thereof over the years. If I don't like it I don't like it. If I said Handel's operas were rubbish nobody would raise an eyelid here, what hypocrisy. If I prefer Handel's operas to Mozart's and Wagner's nobody here is qualified to call me an idiot.

[karlhenning]

The good news is I am not bound by the fascistic tendencies that permeate this forum!

Thanks for the laugh!  Always welcome of a morning, Corkster!

[Don]

The good news is I am not bound by the fascistic tendencies that permeate this forum! I've paid good money to hear Don Giovani and Cosi live not so long ago. and have heard a good few CDs or extracts thereof over the years. If I don't like it I don't like it. If I said Handel's operas were rubbish nobody would raise an eyelid here, what hypocrisy. If I prefer Handel's operas to Mozart's and Wagner's nobody here is qualified to call me an idiot.

But you don't simply state a preference for Handel's operas.  For some perverse reason, you feel it necessary to dump on other famous composers of opera to buttress your subjective views.  In doing this, you give the appearance of being an idiot.

[PSmith08]

The good news is I am not bound by the fascistic tendencies that permeate this forum!

You're either confused about the definition of fascism, or just making a silly rhetorical point. Either way, I should dismiss the point out-of-hand. I won't, though. There is no central administration and control of opinion. There certainly isn't a centralized ideology expressed by an authority figure. It's the free market, old chum, and the consumers are just not buying your product. Those are the breaks.

I've paid good money to hear Don Giovani and Cosi live not so long ago. and have heard a good few CDs or extracts thereof over the years. If I don't like it I don't like it.

At least you're consistently subjective. I can't fault you for that, unless you're trying to pass your subjectivity off as absolute fact, as though you have some sort of claim to arbitrate artistic quality in absolute, objective terms.

If I said Handel's operas were rubbish nobody would raise an eyelid here, what hypocrisy. If I prefer Handel's operas to Mozart's and Wagner's nobody here is qualified to call me an idiot.

The preference isn't the problem. It's like Don said. It's not enough for you to say, "Gee, I really like Handel." No, you have to say, "Gee, I really like Handel and Mozart was a hack." When you express your preference in such terms, you're going to run into trouble. I'm not surprised that you express your views like that, or even that you run into opposition. No, what surprises me is your surprise when you meet some resistance, as though you really don't think that folks might take exception to your method of argument.

[Rod Corkin]

But you don't simply state a preference for Handel's operas.  For some perverse reason, you feel it necessary to dump on other famous composers of opera to buttress your subjective views.  In doing this, you give the appearance of being an idiot.

I'm not dumping on anything, have you actually read the title of this topic Don? Have you seen the poll options? I've already said this is a crazy subject. If I appear as an idiot to you that is something I can live with.

[Don]

I'm not dumping on anything, have you actually read the title of this topic Don? Have you seen the poll options? I've already said this is a crazy subject. If I appear as an idiot to you that is something I can live with.

Understood.  I don't expect you to stroke out no matter how foolishly you present your views.

[Rod Corkin]

Understood.  I don't expect you to stroke out no matter how foolishly you present your views.

I thank you.

[M forever]

The good news is I am not bound by the fascistic tendencies that permeate this forum!

Oh, now everyone who doesn't agree with you is a "fascist". Maybe I should give you the benefit of the doubt here because there is a good chance you don't even know and understand what that is. And what a nasty insult that is. But you don't deserve the benefit of the doubt.
I have to apologize for calling you an idiot. But not to you, to the real idiots. People who are just harmless idiots don't deserve to be thrown together with a piece of crap like you. You used to be involuntarily funny, then boring, now you have become just sickening.

[knight66]

Some of these posts remind me of the following.

A long time ago, when I was a young manager, I had a group of people three of whom happened to be called John Smith. Sitting working, I happened to hear the daftest of the trio, and frankly, it was a close run race, say; 'So that's why they called the month October.' I then asked what they were chatting about.

JS the Egregious 'Well, hundreds of years ago, there was this plague of octopus. They called it the year of the octopus. But once the year was ended, they were so sad, they decided to rename one of the months, so they would never forget the plague. So they ended up with October.'

I pointed out that October was the eighth month of the Roman calender. Immediately JS shot back; 'Nah, it is the 10th month, so that's rubbish....look, Octopus the word starts, O-C-T-O. October, the word starts O-C-T-O.......I rest my case.

I decided that such stupidity was almost treasureable, I just smiled; we all got back to the task and for all I know John Smith The Egregious still believes his fairy story.

There are some people you cannot help.

I rest my case.

Mike

[PSmith08]

Some of these posts remind me of the following.

A long time ago, when I was a young manager, I had a group of people three of whom happened to be called John Smith. Sitting working, I happened to hear the daftest of the trio, and frankly, it was a close run race, say; 'So that's why they called the month October.' I then asked what they were chatting about.

JS the Egregious 'Well, hundreds of years ago, there was this plague of octopus. They called it the year of the octopus. But once the year was ended, they were so sad, they decided to rename one of the months, so they would never forget the plague. So they ended up with October.'

I pointed out that October was the eighth month of the Roman calender. Immediately JS shot back; 'Nah, it is the 10th month, so that's rubbish....look, Octopus the word starts, O-C-T-O. October, the word starts O-C-T-O.......I rest my case.

I decided that such stupidity was almost treasureable, I just smiled; we all got back to the task and for all I know John Smith The Egregious still believes his fairy story.

There are some people you cannot help.

I rest my case.

Mike

That is the funniest thing I have heard all week. At least your correspondent was harmless.

[Sarastro]

Sometimes even a stupid question can cause a fancy discussion which is so nice to read!

[Rod Corkin]

Oh, now everyone who doesn't agree with you is a "fascist". Maybe I should give you the benefit of the doubt here because there is a good chance you don't even know and understand what that is. And what a nasty insult that is. But you don't deserve the benefit of the doubt.
I have to apologize for calling you an idiot. But not to you, to the real idiots. People who are just harmless idiots don't deserve to be thrown together with a piece of crap like you. You used to be involuntarily funny, then boring, now you have become just sickening.

You forget all I do is offer my musical opinion here, I do not insult or shout down anyone else or use spamming techniques to push comments out of view (another thing that sometimes goes on here). It is the consistent reaction here are the local Mafia that is 100% fascistic. This is just something that is a fact of life here at GMG, whether you accept it or not. Indeed it appears you are a part of it. But the Management has to take some blame for allowing this culture to exist. Put it this way, despite the title there's much less mayhem at my site than there is here, and people can say what they like at my place! Things that have caused riots and chaos here!

[PSmith08]

You forget all I do is offer my musical opinion here, I do not insult or shout down anyone else or use spamming techniques to push comments out of view (another thing that sometimes goes on here).

Because calling things "100% fascistic" is high praise? Because "local Mafia" is a term of endearment?

You're well beyond the point where you can say, with a straight face, "all I do is offer my musical opinion here."

As to your insistence on throwing "fascist" around at the slightest (deserved) provocation, to quote the great film, The Princess Bride, "I do not think it means what you think it means."