Handel, senza castrati per piacere.

[knight66]

Fine, the point I am making is that there is no absolute rule. Absurd productions do not mean we go back to place everything into aspic. I think we are agreed; Morigan is perhaps the reactionary.

Mike

[Morigan]

Yes, I'm a reactionary! RAWR!

No, just kidding. I have nothing against the modern transposition of opera, up to a certain point. Sometimes it's just random pseudo-artistic bull**** as you can tell.

About the Rameau video, my opera teacher once showed us 4-5 scenes from this production. The native people dance was particularly hilarious, with the huge turkey and a... club dancer sl*t on top?? lol. I wanted to buy it but I wasn't ready to pay over $50 at that time...

[Sarastro]

The native people dance was particularly hilarious, with the huge turkey and a... club dancer sl*t on top?? lol.

So...but what's the deep idea of that?

[Rod Corkin]

It's got Peter Sellars at the helm, a man that should have been put out of his misery a long time ago, that's what's wrong with it.

Good god, am i THE only person here who has an actual interest in the story and setting of these works?

No.

Sellars has messed up elsewhere for sure, but his 'sempaphore' idea works well for Theodora, if not other composers music where he has tried the same. But it is the conviction of the performance that made this production 'Glyndebourne's finest hour'. I would say it is vastly superior to McVicar's Giulio Cesare production with it's Bollywood dance routines, (which has also received huge acclaim). But at the end of the day it is always the music that comes first, if the music performance stinks the production however good won't save it.

[Rod Corkin]

This is the least successful DVD version of Giulio Cesare.

The production is not especially brilliant. But what I find really inexcusable is that quite a few of the original arias Handel wrote for Giulio Cesare are missing and were replaces with arias from other Handel operas... Some of the singers are good, others are quite mediocre.

For these reasons this DVD is a non starter for Rod Corkin.

[Tsaraslondon]

You mean the language or the meaning? Anyway, I remember a movie Romeo and Juliet with Di Caprio, where the original text (modern though) was applied, even all that medivial stuff as swords, though they were using pistols. And it fitted perfectly! (except pistols) So the real art does not know any borders, it's interesting always, as it's interesting to see the life of Paris's parties in la Traviata, the Royal court of Elizabeth queen of England, etc.
Of course sometimes the prodcutions are really good, as Manon at LA-opera last season when the action was switched to Paris 1950's, it was awesome. But if you want to move la Traviata in timeline, to make Violetta a drug-user and making men's stripping instead of Torrero dance - all the atmosphere ruins, then why Girgio Germont asks Violetta to abandon Alfredo if the action goes in our times when freedom is declared? No correspondence.

Actually, done well, I think the story of La Traviata could work very well in a modern setting. Our morals haven't changed that much since the nineteenth century. I can well imagine a situation where an upper middle class bourgeois family would take against the union of their young son with a prostitute, even if she were a high class one. And what if she was also HIV positive? An interesting twist might to be imply that the elder Germont had once been her client, which was actually the case with the real life Marie DuPlessis, on which Dumas based his story. I'm not saying I would always want to see it in modern dress productions, but, carefully thought through, transplanting a piece to a modern setting can often emphasize its universality. And remember, La Traviata actually was in a modern setting when it was first produced. It was a total flop and the next production set the opera in the time of Louis XIV, after which it was a complete success. It was only then that Verdi could let the opera revert to its original 19th century setting.

[Wendell_E]

Actually, done well, I think the story of La Traviata could work very well in a modern setting. Our morals haven't changed that much since the nineteenth century. I can well imagine a situation where an upper middle class bourgeois family would take against the union of their young son with a prostitute, even if she were a high class one. And what if she was also HIV positive?

Frank Corsaro did a production of the opera that had Violetta dying in an AIDS ward twenty years ago or so.  I know the New York City Opera did it, but I think the production originated elsewhere.

[Sarastro]

And what if she was also HIV positive?

I can imagine a situation where an upper middle class bourgeois family would take against the union of their young son with a prostitute, even if she were a high class one. But Violetta can't be HIV positive, at least she is not to. I admit that modern productions are very good sometimes, but let's respect the composer!!
What would Verdi have said if I he had seen such a misinterpretation of his piece?

[Tsaraslondon]

I can imagine a situation where an upper middle class bourgeois family would take against the union of their young son with a prostitute, even if she were a high class one. But Violetta can't be HIV positive, at least she is not to. I admit that modern productions are very good sometimes, but let's respect the composer!!
What would Verdi have said if I he had seen such a misinterpretation of his piece?

I wouldn't be so reactionary. I'm sure Verdi would have been happy as long as the music was respected. As I already mentioned, La Traviata was a modern opera when it was produced and there is a similarity between consumption then and HIV now. Consumption was not a romantic illness, it was a very real threat in those days, just as HIV is today. Given Violetta's profession, it is not at all unlikely that she would have contracted the disease.

[Sarastro]

I wouldn't be so reactionary. I'm sure Verdi would have been happy as long as the music was respected. As I already mentioned, La Traviata was a modern opera when it was produced and there is a similarity between consumption then and HIV now. Consumption was not a romantic illness, it was a very real threat in those days, just as HIV is today. Given Violetta's profession, it is not at all unlikely that she would have contracted the disease.

I agree, it was a modern opera when it was produced. So I think now we need then a modern composer who would compose a nowadays modern opera about positive HIV prostitute and others. That'll work. But as soon as Verdi lived long-long ago I would insist on following traditions, as I see the art and opera particularly to be also a device for time-line travelling. I don't want to read about those times only in books, or to see some glamorous uncertain Hollywood films about the Stuarts, I'd like to see it staged in theater, to see how composers imagined it themselves, as I admit they sometimes could be wrong too, opera is especially uncertain genre with inclining dramas and love stories. But it is interesting! Interesting to see what they tried to deliver to us.
I am not against some modern stagings, as I've mentioned how splendidly was Manon at LA-opera done (then they brought the production to Europe too), but I'd like them to be a minority, or at least a half of the whole amount. But what I don't like are those untalented stupid productions, because it is offensive. And it breaks that communication from composer to a spectator.

[Sarastro]

There is also a little point I forgot to mention. It is - children and youth.  0:) It is the future, and the future of opera still depends on how popular it would stay. But even without all this, imagine, when you take a child to an opera, where he expects to see what is written at least in libretto and then sees Monostatos, who is considered to be moor, in jail uniform...or Zerlina, sitting on her knees and unfastening Giovanni's pants  (this he might not understand at all)...or some other freaky productions, he would sooner hate opera and be alarmed in future hearing that word, than to love it. And isn't it important to refer the young generation to that kind of music?

[Mozart]

Off topic but in Giulio Cesare the aria for Achillas tu sei il cor, did Handel use this in a different opera? It sounds so familiar...

[Tsaraslondon]

There is also a little point I forgot to mention. It is - children and youth.  0:) It is the future, and the future of opera still depends on how popular it would stay. But even without all this, imagine, when you take a child to an opera, where he expects to see what is written at least in libretto and then sees Monostatos, who is considered to be moor, in jail uniform...or Zerlina, sitting on her knees and unfastening Giovanni's pants  (this he might not understand at all)...or some other freaky productions, he would sooner hate opera and be alarmed in future hearing that word, than to love it. And isn't it important to refer the young generation to that kind of music?

Sorry, Sarastro, I disagree with you on just about every point. If we were to follow your advice, we would have to say that Shakespeare's plays should only be produced at the Globe in London, with minimal stage scenery, boys in the women's roles, no lighting, and always in Elizabethan dress, as they would have been at the time. Theatre, and opera, are not museum pieces. We should not preserve them in aspic. We have seen how composers in the past would do whatever they needed to do to make their operas work for the audience at the time. In Verdi's day, people had difficulty accepting an opera on modern themes, which pointed a finger at the morals of the day, so he transported the opera back to the time of Louis XIV, after which they were more willing to accept it. I am not saying that I always want to see operas in a modern setting, but if we don't make any work relevant to a modern day audience it dies. One of the most moving productions of La Boheme I have seen, is the one that Baz Luhrman did at the Australian Opera. He set it in the 1950s, cast it with a group of young believable singers, and it was an instant hit, particularly with young audiences, who would probably have totally resisted a traditional production I have seen on DVD, with an aging Pavarotti and Freni trying to have us believe they are 20 year olds. They might be in nineteenth century costume, but I know which production was more faithful to Puccini.

[Siedler]

There are good and bad examples. Some are sympathetic, others a disaster. I recently wrote about an awful attempt at Turandot. But altering the setting can work. After about 40 years of opera going, I don't think I would sustain interest if every production basically looked like a moving waxwork. Any really great piece is open to being mined; just as Shakespeare is constantly reevaluated, to keep it relevent, fresh and to connect it to us. I think the occasional really authentic production is fine, Luly done with flat moving scenery and a vast Baroque sun, lovely.
Here is some Rameau, could it connect any better? I have seen the whole staging, it is superb.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zegtH-acXE&feature=related

Mike

Knight, I've seen that production on tv as well and loved it. I couldn't imagine some boring and stuffy "traditional" production with that opera anyway...

[Sarastro]

Sorry, Sarastro, I disagree with you on just about every point. If we were to follow your advice, we would have to say that Shakespeare's plays should only be produced at the Globe in London, with minimal stage scenery, boys in the women's roles, no lighting, and always in Elizabethan dress, as they would have been at the time. Theatre, and opera, are not museum pieces. We should not preserve them in aspic. We have seen how composers in the past would do whatever they needed to do to make their operas work for the audience at the time. In Verdi's day, people had difficulty accepting an opera on modern themes, which pointed a finger at the morals of the day, so he transported the opera back to the time of Louis XIV, after which they were more willing to accept it. I am not saying that I always want to see operas in a modern setting, but if we don't make any work relevant to a modern day audience it dies. One of the most moving productions of La Boheme I have seen, is the one that Baz Luhrman did at the Australian Opera. He set it in the 1950s, cast it with a group of young believable singers, and it was an instant hit, particularly with young audiences, who would probably have totally resisted a traditional production I have seen on DVD, with an aging Pavarotti and Freni trying to have us believe they are 20 year olds. They might be in nineteenth century costume, but I know which production was more faithful to Puccini.

I now agree with you, and would like to quote my previous post too, where I said "I am not against some modern stagings, as I've mentioned how splendidly was Manon at LA-opera done (then they brought the production to Europe too), but I'd like them to be a minority, or at least a half of the whole amount. But what I don't like are those untalented stupid productions, because it is offensive. And it breaks that communication from composer to a spectator." I'm not even sure there is a disagreement, looks more like misunderstanding, maybe I wrote my thoughts incorrectly. Did I?
And I didn't insist on authentics, as now we have a huge opportunity to use computer graphics, modern technichs to produce a good staging, as I saw Fidelio in LA-Opera with light projection on the scene and computer graphics used. It was fascinating.
BUT no one came to an idea to make Florestan gay, or to make prisoners dance a striptease!! That's what I meant. I was talking about non-corresponding to a plot and freaky productions.

And again, there is a difference, it's even an alternative - either to see a good staging with young fresh singers (though La Boheme in LA-Opera was so! And the staging was conceptual, from Warsaw), or to listen to Pavarotti and Freni. But the real magic of Art can turn even old gigantic Pavarotti into a young poor writer and Freni to a fragile girl. It depends on if you trust your eyes or your years. Anyway, I can frankly say that at La Boheme in LA-opera I was really crying, as the half the audience did  , though every single singer wasn't a great one. But together they were.

[Sarastro]

now we have a huge opportunity to use computer graphics, modern technichs to produce a good staging

It is my dream to see majestically coming Queen of the Night in her first aria. 0:)

[Tsaraslondon]

BUT no one came to an idea to make Florestan gay, or to make prisoners dance a striptease!! That's what I meant. I was talking about non-corresponding to a plot and freaky productions.

And there I agree with you. That wouldn't work because it makes no sense, either with the music or the libretto. If a production is good, whether it be modern or traditional, an audience will be convinced. And, incidentally, I've seen quite a few bad and unconvincing traditional productions, where it is obvious to me that the stage producer had absolutely no understanding of the music. In the end, that is what matters most - that the production honours the music.

[Sarastro]

Now to consensus we came.