Author Topic: Haydn's Haus  (Read 996953 times)

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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11200 on: April 10, 2017, 04:33:58 AM »
Music Theory is hell. God, I love it so.
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Offline Florestan

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11201 on: April 10, 2017, 05:23:48 AM »
I posted that Berlioz link on purpose. There is little technical jargon, and certainly not incomprehensible for laymen, that he uses in analyzing Beethoven's symphonies. Schumann's musical criticism is also extremely readable and eminently understandable for laymen.
“I compose music because I must give expression to my feelings, just as I talk because I must give utterance to my thoughts.”  --- Rachmaninoff

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11202 on: April 10, 2017, 05:29:26 AM »
I posted that Berlioz link on purpose. There is little technical jargon, and certainly not incomprehensible for laymen, that he uses in analyzing Beethoven's symphonies. Schumann's musical criticism is also extremely readable and eminently understandable for laymen.

So I guess you are making the case that listeners do in fact need theory in order to appreciate the music  8)   I mean, we in the 21st century can hardly imagine finding Beethoven's symphonies difficult of understanding.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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Boston MA
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[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
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His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline Florestan

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11203 on: April 10, 2017, 05:54:04 AM »
So I guess you are making the case that listeners do in fact need theory in order to appreciate the music  8)

You misunderstood me. I agree that theory can, and usually does, enhance one's appreciation for the subtlety of this or that composition --- but theory is not needed for the appreciation itself.

My case was different, viz. that the writings about music of Berlioz and Schumann make little use of technicalities and can be read and understood even by someone who has not the slightest idea about theory --- in clear contradistinction to the authors lambasted by Gurn.

“I compose music because I must give expression to my feelings, just as I talk because I must give utterance to my thoughts.”  --- Rachmaninoff

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11204 on: April 10, 2017, 05:55:32 AM »
I posted that Berlioz link on purpose. There is little technical jargon, and certainly not incomprehensible for laymen, that he uses in analyzing Beethoven's symphonies. Schumann's musical criticism is also extremely readable and eminently understandable for laymen.

I agree, I have read quite a bit of Schumann, only a little Berlioz. They didn't put a big emphasis on analysis, that was still awaiting the future. Perhaps it was because both of them were musicians instead of professional theoreticians. I'll post some here later when I have the chance to type it out. You won't be able to disagree with me. :)

8)
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11205 on: April 10, 2017, 05:58:52 AM »
I agree, I have read quite a bit of Schumann, only a little Berlioz. They didn't put a big emphasis on analysis, that was still awaiting the future. Perhaps it was because both of them were musicians instead of professional theoreticians.

Partly, too, because they were journalists, and the periodicals had a more general readership, perhaps, than comparable publications today.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
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http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
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His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11206 on: April 10, 2017, 06:01:45 AM »
You misunderstood me. I agree that theory can, and usually does, enhance one's appreciation for the subtlety of this or that composition --- but theory is not needed for the appreciation itself.

Well, but I wonder.  Berlioz really did need to make the case for Beethoven's music as Beethoven wrote it;  so few among even the professional musicians were willing to leave his scores “uncorrected.”  So maybe there are times when theory is needed to foster appreciation.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
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[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
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His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline Florestan

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11207 on: April 10, 2017, 06:15:04 AM »
Partly, too, because they were journalists, and the periodicals had a more general readership, perhaps, than comparable publications today.

A good point, although in Schumann's case he wrote for a specialized periodical and I suppose (many, if not most) people who read it knew their theory.

there are times when theory is needed to foster appreciation.

For specialists, certainly, for laymen I'm not sure.
“I compose music because I must give expression to my feelings, just as I talk because I must give utterance to my thoughts.”  --- Rachmaninoff

Offline Mahlerian

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11208 on: April 10, 2017, 07:23:31 AM »
Just for the record, and despite any efforts to paint my opinions as something they aren't, I don't think you need to be an expert on theory to enjoy music either. If I did, I would be in a very poor posture. My comments were strictly aimed at the way that theory has become more and more arcane over the last 2 centuries, to the point where if it isn't your specialty, you can scarcely understand it at all. And it didn't used to be that way, and I think music has not gotten better for it, which should have been the only reason to do something like that. :)  If you read the essay, you won't find anything in it that states, avers, avows or postulates anything else.

8)

Funny that you mentioned Schenker in that regard, as Schenker was a reactionary in terms of aesthetics who wanted to prove that all music after Brahms was nonsensical garbage, and objectively so.

I don't think there's any music that really requires a knowledge of theory for enjoyment.  At the very least, I am not aware of any.  I found that I wanted to understand the music I was listening to better, and turned to theory as a way of doing that, but the enjoyment was there from the beginning, or I wouldn't have cared enough to dig more deeply.
"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11209 on: April 10, 2017, 07:40:34 AM »
I don't think there's any music that really requires a knowledge of theory for enjoyment.

Very good.  I suppose my remark about Berlioz and the need to sell LvB on LvB's terms, points to context.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
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http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
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His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11210 on: April 10, 2017, 08:37:25 AM »
Since 1795 was one of the most successful years of Haydn's career, I sort of had the impression that he must have written lots of big music. But the reality is different, as I discovered this time...

Quality trumps quantity any day!

Thanks,
8)
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Online Sergeant Rock

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11211 on: April 10, 2017, 11:44:54 AM »
Since 1795 was one of the most successful years of Haydn's career, I sort of had the impression that he must have written lots of big music. But the reality is different, as I discovered this time...

Quality trumps quantity any day!

Thanks,
8)

Are you having a senior moment?  You posted this already.  ;D ;)  Anyway, thanks for the reminder. I've been meaning to listen to the symphony "Mit dem Paukenwirbel" again...and am doing that now.

Sarge

« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 10:55:53 AM by Sergeant Rock »
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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11212 on: April 10, 2017, 01:28:30 PM »
Are you having a senior moment?  You posted this already.  ;D ;)  Anyway, thanks for the reminder. I've been meaning to listen to the symphony "Mit dem Paukenwirbel" again...and am doing that now.

Sarge

:D  No, there was a page and a half of other discussion which piled up so rapidly I thought anyone not here on the weekend might now know the link existed.

Isn't that a great symphony? Always been a favorite. Did you know, it's about a storm and a village church...   >:D :D  :D

8)
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Online Sergeant Rock

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11213 on: April 11, 2017, 11:02:19 AM »
Did you know, it's about a storm and a village church...   >:D :D  :D

8)

I didn't know for sure but had long suspected...you know, all that rumbling and piety so obviously depicted  ;D

Sarge
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Mahler, you ought to go see it.
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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11214 on: April 11, 2017, 11:07:06 AM »
I didn't know for sure but had long suspected...you know, all that rumbling and piety so obviously depicted  ;D

Sarge

:D

8)
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Offline Jo498

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11215 on: April 11, 2017, 10:34:10 PM »
You actually fooled me, I thought you had the stuff with the villagers and the storm made up on the spot...

While I have seen the name mentioned, I have never heard any music by Ordonez. As for the recurring introduction, I'd say for one thing it is not such an outlandish idea and there are earlier Haydn symphonies where the whole introduction consists mainly of slightly "distorted" (slower, sometimes in the minor mode etc.) material of the main allegro, e.g. in 90 and 98. And if one wants to name a more specific "model" or inspiration my money is rather on Mozart's quintet K 593 where the intro material does re-appear later than that obscure Ordonez symphony 20 years earlier (again I have not heard or seen his piece).
What seems extraordinary to me in the 103 is the stark contrast between the sombre intro material and the main allegro (that apparently inspired the storm story). And the "double recurrence" once in a faster tempo when it is only a rather vague reminder and then in the original form.
This was one of the first 3 Haydn pieces I encountered as a teenager (the others were "the Clock" and "the Surprise" - my father had two LPs Dorati with 94/101 and the early HIP Collegium Aureum with 94/103) and it has been a favorite piece of mine ever since. While it lacks a "great" slow movement in the manner of 88 or 92 (or 99, 102 and some others), the andante/allegretto is also very original and maybe Haydn went for a more quirky than solemn movement on purpose because the slow introduction + recurrence had already covered such a sombre mood. The finale is also one of the most surprising creations, hardly fitting into any of the typical sonata-rondo molds (actually hardly any of Haydn's finales fits any preformed mold but this one even less than some others).
« Last Edit: April 12, 2017, 03:37:23 AM by Jo498 »
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Offline Florestan

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11216 on: April 12, 2017, 03:26:35 AM »
Isn't that a great symphony? Always been a favorite. Did you know, it's about a storm and a village church...   >:D :D  :D



#103

For the Allegro, I have no problem with the "Storm Outside and Bickering Inside the Village Church" program.

The Andante reminded me of my 4-year son's simulating marching in front of his toys lined up one after another behind him (which he did last Sunday).

The Menuetto: let the counts and dukes have their stately and stiff courtly dances, ordinary people will always have more fun over an unbuttoned laendler played on fiddles and accordions.

The Finale: Morningride during Sunrise.

 8)



“I compose music because I must give expression to my feelings, just as I talk because I must give utterance to my thoughts.”  --- Rachmaninoff

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11217 on: April 12, 2017, 03:29:49 AM »
Well I have this disk:



which has a C major symphony on it (#C2), although I can't tell from Brown's book whether it is the one he is talking about. Ordoñez is a very good composer, in the same class as Vanhal, perhaps. And like Vanhal, he did mostly sacred music. Anyway, he is one of those many names who were both popular and influential, right up till their death.

I very much agree with your perception of #103. It has a lot of contrasts, it's almost chiaroscuro.  Your note about not fitting molds is part of what makes me laugh at the 19th century's ex post facto decision to try and define things like sonata form and somehow jar it up for popular consumption. :)

8)
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Offline Florestan

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11218 on: April 12, 2017, 03:33:11 AM »
Well I have this disk:



which has a C major symphony on it (#C2), although I can't tell from Brown's book whether it is the one he is talking about. Ordoñez is a very good composer, in the same class as Vanhal, perhaps. And like Vanhal, he did mostly sacred music. Anyway, he is one of those many names who were both popular and influential, right up till their death.

Some superb Sturm und Drang music on that CD. Highly recommended indeed.
“I compose music because I must give expression to my feelings, just as I talk because I must give utterance to my thoughts.”  --- Rachmaninoff

Offline Gordo

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11219 on: April 12, 2017, 04:43:55 AM »
Well I have this disk:



which has a C major symphony on it (#C2), although I can't tell from Brown's book whether it is the one he is talking about. Ordoñez is a very good composer, in the same class as Vanhal, perhaps. And like Vanhal, he did mostly sacred music. Anyway, he is one of those many names who were both popular and influential, right up till their death.

I very much agree with your perception of #103. It has a lot of contrasts, it's almost chiaroscuro.  Your note about not fitting molds is part of what makes me laugh at the 19th century's ex post facto decision to try and define things like sonata form and somehow jar it up for popular consumption. :)

8)

An unmistakable Spaniard surname. I noticed you wrote "von Ordoñez". Say the notes something about?
Musica lætitiæ comes medicina dolorum
(Music is a companion to joy and a medicine for pains)