Author Topic: Haydn's Haus  (Read 1101698 times)

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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11260 on: June 07, 2017, 05:45:31 PM »
Continuing with my traversal of Dorati's recording of the Esterhazy operas, tonight I am listening to La Vera Constanza, and I am very much reminded of a certain dude named Wolfgang as I listened, for the first time in this set.
Which made me wonder how much of Mozart's output would Haydn have known.  So I turned to Wikipedia for dates, and found this
Now, in 1779 Mozart was probably not very much on Haydn's radar.  But by 1785 the two had met, and Mozart had written the first two of his operas which are heard with at least some regularity today: Idomeneo and Abduction from the Seraglio. Plus of many of the piano concertos and symphonies and chamber music.

So now I have a double question

First, was the original score "largely lost" as Wikipedia says.
Second, how faithful a reproduction of the original was Haydn's 1785 version?  Might he have rewritten it and used some Mozartian influence picked up in the intervening years?

Even the Wikipedia article picks up on the Mozartian tinge

The only Mozart opera he could have possibly heard was Abduction from the Seraglio. Idomeneo was a Munich thing, it didn't get around and Haydn didn't do Munich. He didn't see any of the Da Ponte operas until 1790. The Prince was only interested in Italian operas, I seriously doubt there was ever any staging of Abduction from the Seraglio at Eszterháza. Which is not to say he couldn't have seen it in Vienna.

The original of La Vera... was lost in the great fire of 1779 when the opera house burned to the ground. Chances are that Haydn recreated it as nearly as possible to the original when they decided to stage it in 1785, although whatever new musical tricks he had learned in the meantime were probably used.

There has never been any assertion by anyone that there might have been any cross-pollination between the two of them operatically. I think what you are seeing is the common language of opera at the time, most especially Italian opera, which had very strict conventions regarding many things. Even though Mozart was innovative in many ways, he was still obliged to adhere to these conventions because his audience wouldn't have known what the hell he was talking about if they had been abandoned. Haydn too, of course. :)

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kishnevi

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11261 on: June 07, 2017, 06:02:31 PM »
Thanks.

But the Mozartean flavor is much more apparent than in the operas I heard before this.
Or perhaps it's just in this opera, the characters are more than just stick figures acting out a stereotypical plot?

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11262 on: June 08, 2017, 03:59:08 AM »
Thanks.

But the Mozartean flavor is much more apparent than in the operas I heard before this.
Or perhaps it's just in this opera, the characters are more than just stick figures acting out a stereotypical plot?

While Haydn never had a Da Ponte to write his libretti, sometimes there are pretty good ones out there. Puttini's effort is no slouch in its own right. Don't know how much background to the story you know, this was one of the first operas I  went into culturally and I came away thinking that there really was a lot of depth in the characters, because the thing hinges on cultural aspects which were intentionally very emotional. Sometimes Haydn wasted a lot of great music trying to rescue a subpar libretto, but this time it was worth his efforts. ANd very popular for years after, albeit in German translation.

Gotta tell you, the stick figure thing was not uncommon. Most of the characters in operas of the time were intended to be allegories, not real people. The work was often aimed at a particular exalted person and the character was intended to represent him. So fleshing them out is not expected or even desirable. Lot of stuff going on there. I intend to devote a good bit of time to it when I find some more research material.

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Offline BasilValentine

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11263 on: June 09, 2017, 04:04:56 AM »
Thanks.

But the Mozartean flavor is much more apparent than in the operas I heard before this.
Or perhaps it's just in this opera, the characters are more than just stick figures acting out a stereotypical plot?

While we see this era dominated by a few incomparable giants, 18thc composers lacked our hindsight. Perhaps Haydn was influenced by multiple minor figures and what we now might describe as a Mozartean flavor was part of a a more general stylistic evolution on which both Haydn and Mozart built? 

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11264 on: June 09, 2017, 04:43:41 AM »
While we see this era dominated by a few incomparable giants, 18thc composers lacked our hindsight. Perhaps Haydn was influenced by multiple minor figures and what we now might describe as a Mozartean flavor was part of a a more general stylistic evolution on which both Haydn and Mozart built?

That is certainly the case, although your characterization of them as 'minor figures' would be laughed at if you had said it in, say, 1790. Italians like Guglielmi, Righini, Sarti, Piccini, Jomelli &c were the Kings of the Opera World. Mozart was a talented outsider with potential. Haydn was another outsider, very good though... In the opera world, both of them were 'minor figures', even Mozart, whose operas I love. Haydn's main job between ca 1774 and 1790 was Opera Impressario. He produced and directed literally hundreds of operas in that time. 125 in 1786 alone! You are unquestionably correct that both Haydn and Mozart built on a stylistic evolution.

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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11265 on: June 11, 2017, 01:25:21 PM »
By coincidence, my 4th anniversary of blogging Haydn comes on the occasion of his final departure from London. So this week I wrapped up a great 5 years for him! Check it out!

Goodbye, Piccadilly...

Thanks,
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kishnevi

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11266 on: June 11, 2017, 02:02:03 PM »
By coincidence, my 4th anniversary of blogging Haydn comes on the occasion of his final departure from London. So this week I wrapped up a great 5 years for him! Check it out!

Goodbye, Piccadilly...

Thanks,
8)

You start waxing poetic, huzzah! A very nice survey.

I finished my discovery of the Haydn operas this afternoon, btw, with "The World on the Moon".  My favorite turned out to be Vera Constanza.

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11267 on: June 11, 2017, 02:56:00 PM »
Party on, gents!

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11268 on: June 11, 2017, 03:01:16 PM »
You start waxing poetic, huzzah! A very nice survey.

I finished my discovery of the Haydn operas this afternoon, btw, with "The World on the Moon".  My favorite turned out to be Vera Constanza.

Thanks, Jeffrey. I am very pleased to know that my efforts have encouraged some people to explore Haydn who may perhaps not have done, or so they tell me.  It makes the time and effort worthwhile.

La vera constanza is indeed excellent. Seriously, doesn't it surprise you just a little that such fine music has only been recorded that one time?  Almost all of the others I have a second or third recording of, but that rascal is the Lone Ranger. Of course, I could use a 200th recording of ...Figaro  ::)

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kishnevi

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11269 on: June 11, 2017, 03:26:37 PM »
I went looking, hoping you were wrong. But you are correct.  There is no complete recording beyond the Dorati.

But there is this, released this past January


ASIN B017OK6656
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 03:29:10 PM by Jeffrey Smith »

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11270 on: June 11, 2017, 03:55:05 PM »
I went looking, hoping you were wrong. But you are correct.  There is no complete recording beyond the Dorati.

But there is this, released this past January


ASIN B017OK6656

Ha! Well that in itself is a big improvement. I would surmise it is the arias with no recitatives, which would thrill some people to death anyway. :)   I'll have to check that out. I'm already a fan of La infedelta delusa, I have a very fine recording by Kuijken and La petite bande. No harm in having another though. :)

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PerfectWagnerite

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11271 on: June 11, 2017, 04:15:58 PM »
What are people's opinions regarding Gunther Herbig's London Symphonies?

This set here:

« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 04:39:19 PM by PerfectWagnerite »

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11272 on: June 11, 2017, 04:19:48 PM »
What are people's opinions regarding Gunther Herbig's London Symphonies?

I'm sorry, I never heard them. Hopefully some here have though. :-\

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Offline Old Listener

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11273 on: June 11, 2017, 06:42:04 PM »
By coincidence, my 4th anniversary of blogging Haydn comes on the occasion of his final departure from London. So this week I wrapped up a great 5 years for him! Check it out!

Goodbye, Piccadilly...


Thanks, Gurn for sharing your blog with us.  All this information about Haydn's life added to my understanding of the man.  And Haydn was a man worth knowing.

Offline Jo498

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11274 on: June 11, 2017, 10:05:13 PM »
What are people's opinions regarding Gunther Herbig's London Symphonies?



It is surprisingly good, a real bargain at the typical prices it goes for. Do not expect something "challenging" but it is well played (with beautiful and prominent woodwinds), well recorded, the interpretations are lively (except for the menuets but they are too staid for me on almost all pre-HIP (and many HIP!) recordings and Herbig is not worse than others), the "lesser" Dresden Orchestra overall plays very well. I don't know all that many (and fewer complete) recordings of the London symphonies but among the ones I have heard this is a very good "middle of the road" version, far from the excentricities of Harnoncourt, Scherchen and occasionally Bernstein. (The sound is also better than Dorati, Bernstein or Jochum, I think)
Probably Jochum (I only have one disc of his DG set) or Davis (who I have not heard) are the more frequently recommended "traditional" choices for the London set. But I can recommend Herbig without reservations, unless you want something "edgy". I guess I can generally agree with the gist of the 3 comments on amazon.com.

Edit: I listened to 96-98 last night and my impression fit with what I wrote above. The amazon reviewer who remarked on the fast tempo for 98/1 is right, that movement might feel a little lightweight for some but others will prefer the fleet reading. You will not get HIP level prominence of brass and timpani but overall I think sound and balances are quite good.
If you search the google groups archive you will find some (generally positive) comments by rather critical Haydn nuts.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 10:48:34 PM by Jo498 »
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11275 on: June 12, 2017, 03:38:26 AM »
Thanks, Gurn for sharing your blog with us.  All this information about Haydn's life added to my understanding of the man.  And Haydn was a man worth knowing.

Thanks, OL. This is exactly how I feel about it too. I haven't taken the time to really learn things about composers before, but I am glad I have been doing it with Haydn. He really was a man of his (most interesting) time.

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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11276 on: June 12, 2017, 04:06:04 AM »
As one who has enjoyed learning about many a composer, I salute thee and express lasting admiration for the accomplishment of thine bloggue!
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11277 on: June 12, 2017, 04:27:32 AM »
As one who has enjoyed learning about many a composer, I salute thee and express lasting admiration for the accomplishment of thine bloggue!

Thy gratitude gratifies me greatly and thy salutary gesture humbles me, even unto the very ground.   0:)

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Offline George

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11278 on: June 12, 2017, 07:19:11 AM »
"I can't live without music, because music is life." - Yvonne Lefébure

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11279 on: June 12, 2017, 08:47:59 AM »
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