Author Topic: Haydn's Haus  (Read 1084365 times)

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kishnevi

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11360 on: October 12, 2017, 11:57:52 AM »
OT
I must admit I got sidetracked a bit before that last post, in checking out St Stephen's, by the Hapsburg tradition of being buried in three different churches.

Offline Old Listener

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11361 on: October 15, 2017, 06:56:45 PM »
No new essays for a while, life has been happening. However, I finally did get wound up and took a look at the last 4 Keyboard Trios, some of my very favorite of Haydn's chamber music. I learned some things, hope you do too. :)

Not too many amateurs playing THESE!


I enjoyed reading this installment and learned from it too.  Best of all, it led me to think about the transition in Haydn's output after London. I wondered if Haydn had decided to turn away from symphonies at the time he left London.  If so, how did using trios and quartets to work our new ideas related to the larger works he now had in mind?

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11362 on: October 15, 2017, 07:13:02 PM »
I enjoyed reading this installment and learned from it too.  Best of all, it led me to think about the transition in Haydn's output after London. I wondered if Haydn had decided to turn away from symphonies at the time he left London.  If so, how did using trios and quartets to work our new ideas related to the larger works he now had in mind?

That's a good question. The bigger picture is that instead of symphonies he was doing masses. There is a prevailing belief among musicologists that he was not only using larger orchestras than the norm, but also constructing the masses along all the major structural lines as the late symphonies used. I'm not sure I'm 100% on board with this, but there are those (Robbins Landon was one) who were simply unable to accept that Haydn quit writing symphonies, therefore his masses were just choral symphonies.

The workshop ideas, I have to say, are less concrete, and I think it's because we are looking back, knowing what the end has in store. But Haydn didn't know when the end would come, and his brain never stopped generating musical ideas. There will be a point later where he tells someone that (it's quite sad) he gets new ideas all the time but simply doesn't have the strength or the concentration to write them down any more. But the rhythmic and harmonic ideas of the 1780's were used in bigger works in the 1790's, and I can only speculate that the ideas of the mid-later 1790's would have been used in the 1800's if he had been able to write beyond 1802. Still, many later composers benefited from his thoughts, either directly or through their perpetuation by Beethoven, Schubert and others.

At least, that's what I believe. If anyone has written on it I haven't seen it yet.

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Parsifal

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11363 on: October 17, 2017, 09:30:39 PM »
Or even some of the Phantasticus pieces from the early 17th century. And if, indeed, Haydn consciously or unconsciously took those as a model, one wonders where in hell he heard it. Because they certainly weren't playing that sort of music during his lifetime!  I would love to be able to trace the genesis of some things like this. (I'm a history guy, after all). :)

8)

Now, I know Bach was considered deathly dull in Haydn's day, but someone must have remembered and played his music, or how would they have known to revive it. Particularly the works which were formally published must have been in circulation among learned connoisseurs and composers. The thing that movement from Hob XV 28 brings to mind is the prelude in b-minor from Bach's WTC Book I.

In any case, I listened to the piece and the middle movement was indeed striking. But if I dare raise the M-word on this thread, for comparison I pulled up Mozart's Piano Trio K548. What a dramatic contrast to the style of Haydn. I remember at first I did not appreciate these trios by Mozart at all, but later I realized that I could understand almost any piece of Mozart with Piano as a sort of Opera without words.




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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11364 on: October 18, 2017, 04:28:10 AM »
Now, I know Bach was considered deathly dull in Haydn's day, but someone must have remembered and played his music, or how would they have known to revive it. Particularly the works which were formally published must have been in circulation among learned connoisseurs and composers. The thing that movement from Hob XV 28 brings to mind is the prelude in b-minor from Bach's WTC Book I.

In any case, I listened to the piece and the middle movement was indeed striking. But if I dare raise the M-word on this thread, for comparison I pulled up Mozart's Piano Trio K548. What a dramatic contrast to the style of Haydn. I remember at first I did not appreciate these trios by Mozart at all, but later I realized that I could understand almost any piece of Mozart with Piano as a sort of Opera without words.

No worries there, mate: just like Haydn did, we love Mozart too. :)

Generally, Old Bach's music was NOT generally known, but the WTC is an exception, it was used as etudes, which, I think, is what it was written as. So you may well be right, I'll have to have a listen when I get home.

I know you're right about Haydn v Mozart. They are an entirely different style. Not one better than the other, so much as one of them the best in a style which became the popular and prevalent style, while the other was king in a style all his own. Maybe that's why they were BFF's, they were never in competition with each other. Haydn shamelessly promoted Mozart's music from when they first met until Haydn died. And vice-versa, I might add. FWIW, I do, and have always, greatly enjoy Mozart's keyboard trios. :)

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Parsifal

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11365 on: October 18, 2017, 08:08:42 AM »
No worries there, mate: just like Haydn did, we love Mozart too. :)

Generally, Old Bach's music was NOT generally known, but the WTC is an exception, it was used as etudes, which, I think, is what it was written as. So you may well be right, I'll have to have a listen when I get home.

I know you're right about Haydn v Mozart. They are an entirely different style. Not one better than the other, so much as one of them the best in a style which became the popular and prevalent style, while the other was king in a style all his own. Maybe that's why they were BFF's, they were never in competition with each other. Haydn shamelessly promoted Mozart's music from when they first met until Haydn died. And vice-versa, I might add. FWIW, I do, and have always, greatly enjoy Mozart's keyboard trios. :)

I'm not entirely sure which is which, Haydn and Mozart, respectively?

Offline kyjo

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11366 on: October 18, 2017, 08:26:21 AM »
Over the summer, I heard a vibrant performance of Haydn's Quartet op. 76/1 (in G major) by the up-and-coming Jasper Quartet (a fantastic group) and was struck by what a remarkable work it is. From the catchy first movement through the deeply felt second and hilariously unpredictable third to the vigorous, minor-key finale, it's a work that constantly surprised and delighted me. Another one of Haydn's quartets that really struck me is his op. 20/2 (in C major), with its noble opening cello solo, melancholy slow movement, wistful minuet, and masterly fugal finale. I also love the Lark Quartet despite having played it too many times. What are everyone's favorite Haydn quartets?
"Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music" - Sergei Rachmaninoff

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11367 on: October 18, 2017, 08:50:32 AM »
Over the summer, I heard a vibrant performance of Haydn's Quartet op. 76/1 (in G major) by the up-and-coming Jasper Quartet (a fantastic group) and was struck by what a remarkable work it is. From the catchy first movement through the deeply felt second and hilariously unpredictable third to the vigorous, minor-key finale, it's a work that constantly surprised and delighted me. Another one of Haydn's quartets that really struck me is his op. 20/2 (in C major), with its noble opening cello solo, melancholy slow movement, wistful minuet, and masterly fugal finale. I also love the Lark Quartet despite having played it too many times. What are everyone's favorite Haydn quartets?

I'm still absorbing them, so my favorite is apt to be, the quartet I just listened to  8)
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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11368 on: October 18, 2017, 08:56:06 AM »
Over the summer, I heard a vibrant performance of Haydn's Quartet op. 76/1 (in G major) by the up-and-coming Jasper Quartet (a fantastic group) and was struck by what a remarkable work it is. From the catchy first movement through the deeply felt second and hilariously unpredictable third to the vigorous, minor-key finale, it's a work that constantly surprised and delighted me. Another one of Haydn's quartets that really struck me is his op. 20/2 (in C major), with its noble opening cello solo, melancholy slow movement, wistful minuet, and masterly fugal finale. I also love the Lark Quartet despite having played it too many times. What are everyone's favorite Haydn quartets?
I'm still absorbing them, so my favorite is apt to be, the quartet I just listened to  8)
Ditto.
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Parsifal

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11369 on: October 18, 2017, 09:02:05 AM »
What are everyone's favorite Haydn quartets?

I'm still absorbing them, so my favorite is apt to be, the quartet I just listened to  8)

That's the Haydn dilemma for me. There is so much of it relative to my rate of uptake, I will always be "still absorbing" them.

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11370 on: October 18, 2017, 09:09:34 AM »
That's the Haydn dilemma for me. There is so much of it relative to my rate of uptake, I will always be "still absorbing" them.

I've made my peace with that, and am content to enjoy the ride listening 8)
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Parsifal

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11371 on: October 18, 2017, 09:28:15 AM »
I've made my peace with that, and am content to enjoy the ride listening 8)

Generally yes, but I feel a lack of something. If you mention Mozart symphony no X, where X is greater than or equal to 29 I will have a distinct opinion on it. Same for Mozart string quartet Y, with Y greater than or equal to 14, or Piano Concerto Z, with Z greater or equal to 14.

If you ask me about a Haydn symphony and it's not Le Poule or the one I listened to last night you'll get a blank stare.

Gurn, quick, what do you think of Haydn Symphony No 37. No cheating!  :)
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 09:34:07 AM by Scarpia »

Parsifal

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11372 on: October 18, 2017, 09:46:03 AM »
And again, no news on The Hobbit?

Offline Jo498

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11373 on: October 18, 2017, 10:51:53 AM »
Over the summer, I heard a vibrant performance of Haydn's Quartet op. 76/1 (in G major) by the up-and-coming Jasper Quartet (a fantastic group) and was struck by what a remarkable work it is. From the catchy first movement through the deeply felt second and hilariously unpredictable third to the vigorous, minor-key finale, it's a work that constantly surprised and delighted me. Another one of Haydn's quartets that really struck me is his op. 20/2 (in C major), with its noble opening cello solo, melancholy slow movement, wistful minuet, and masterly fugal finale. I also love the Lark Quartet despite having played it too many times. What are everyone's favorite Haydn quartets?
I share your enthusiasm about op.76/1 and op.20/2. I remember when I heard the latter first in concert I almost fell from my chair when the second movement began because even after the beautiful first movement I had not expected a comparably "early" piece (this is nonsense, Haydn was around 40 and had already written about a dozen divertimenti and another dozen of quartets but I was not really aware of such details back then) to be such a mature masterpiece. It is a great piece but I am probably even more fond of #4 with the great slow variations movement and the "hungarian" finale. The op. 20 sixpack is a stunning achievement.

I am not all that fond of the "Lark" anymore. I understand why it is so popular but I prefer from op.64 #2,#3 and #6.

Overall there are too many great ones to name favorites. Even the early divertimenti are enjoyable and have some very good (among other more routine or very slight "divertimento" pieces), e.g. the beautiful "echo" slow movement from op.1/3.
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11374 on: October 18, 2017, 12:50:19 PM »
I'm not entirely sure which is which, Haydn and Mozart, respectively?

That would be my opinion. Half the musical world was copying Haydn for most of his working life. Very few were copying Mozart, at least, not during his lifetime.

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11375 on: October 18, 2017, 12:54:52 PM »
Over the summer, I heard a vibrant performance of Haydn's Quartet op. 76/1 (in G major) by the up-and-coming Jasper Quartet (a fantastic group) and was struck by what a remarkable work it is. From the catchy first movement through the deeply felt second and hilariously unpredictable third to the vigorous, minor-key finale, it's a work that constantly surprised and delighted me. Another one of Haydn's quartets that really struck me is his op. 20/2 (in C major), with its noble opening cello solo, melancholy slow movement, wistful minuet, and masterly fugal finale. I also love the Lark Quartet despite having played it too many times. What are everyone's favorite Haydn quartets?

Boy, you picked some good ones! Op 76 1 & 2 are certainly in my top 5. Opus 50 #1 is too, and Opus 74 #3 and Op 77 #2. I hate to dwell too much on the late ones because plenty of early ones are first rate too, like Op 9 #4 (d minor) and a big handful in Op 17, 20 & 33. So....

I'm still absorbing them, so my favorite is apt to be, the quartet I just listened to  8)

I might end up chickening out like Karl... :D

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11376 on: October 18, 2017, 12:59:33 PM »

Gurn, quick, what do you think of Haydn Symphony No 37. No cheating!  :)

That's one in C major and it starts out really fast for a symphony. I like it, IIRC, it was the first "Viennese Festive C Major" style symphony that Haydn wrote for the Prince. He had a particular way with that genre, like with #48 Maria Theresia for example. Several fine works in the "30's', like Hornsignal, #34 and #39.  :)

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Parsifal

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11377 on: October 18, 2017, 01:09:57 PM »
That's one in C major and it starts out really fast for a symphony. I like it, IIRC, it was the first "Viennese Festive C Major" style symphony that Haydn wrote for the Prince. He had a particular way with that genre, like with #48 Maria Theresia for example. Several fine works in the "30's', like Hornsignal, #34 and #39.  :)

8)

Well done! Now I'm suitably ashamed.  :)
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 01:20:37 PM by Scarpia »

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11378 on: October 18, 2017, 01:43:28 PM »
I'm weirdly proud of myself for having known that "no.37" is actually a pretty early symphony. That was as far as I got, though.
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Parsifal

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11379 on: October 18, 2017, 01:53:20 PM »
Quite so, I looked it up in the Gurn Haydn Symphony Concordance and apparently it is Haydn's second effort in the genre.   :o