Haydn's Haus

Started by Gurn Blanston, April 06, 2007, 04:15:04 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

kishnevi

OT
I must admit I got sidetracked a bit before that last post, in checking out St Stephen's, by the Hapsburg tradition of being buried in three different churches.

Old Listener

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 10, 2017, 05:58:19 PM
No new essays for a while, life has been happening. However, I finally did get wound up and took a look at the last 4 Keyboard Trios, some of my very favorite of Haydn's chamber music. I learned some things, hope you do too. :)

Not too many amateurs playing THESE!


I enjoyed reading this installment and learned from it too.  Best of all, it led me to think about the transition in Haydn's output after London. I wondered if Haydn had decided to turn away from symphonies at the time he left London.  If so, how did using trios and quartets to work our new ideas related to the larger works he now had in mind?

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Old Listener on October 15, 2017, 06:56:45 PM
I enjoyed reading this installment and learned from it too.  Best of all, it led me to think about the transition in Haydn's output after London. I wondered if Haydn had decided to turn away from symphonies at the time he left London.  If so, how did using trios and quartets to work our new ideas related to the larger works he now had in mind?

That's a good question. The bigger picture is that instead of symphonies he was doing masses. There is a prevailing belief among musicologists that he was not only using larger orchestras than the norm, but also constructing the masses along all the major structural lines as the late symphonies used. I'm not sure I'm 100% on board with this, but there are those (Robbins Landon was one) who were simply unable to accept that Haydn quit writing symphonies, therefore his masses were just choral symphonies.

The workshop ideas, I have to say, are less concrete, and I think it's because we are looking back, knowing what the end has in store. But Haydn didn't know when the end would come, and his brain never stopped generating musical ideas. There will be a point later where he tells someone that (it's quite sad) he gets new ideas all the time but simply doesn't have the strength or the concentration to write them down any more. But the rhythmic and harmonic ideas of the 1780's were used in bigger works in the 1790's, and I can only speculate that the ideas of the mid-later 1790's would have been used in the 1800's if he had been able to write beyond 1802. Still, many later composers benefited from his thoughts, either directly or through their perpetuation by Beethoven, Schubert and others.

At least, that's what I believe. If anyone has written on it I haven't seen it yet.

8)
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Parsifal

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2017, 04:26:42 AM
Or even some of the Phantasticus pieces from the early 17th century. And if, indeed, Haydn consciously or unconsciously took those as a model, one wonders where in hell he heard it. Because they certainly weren't playing that sort of music during his lifetime!  I would love to be able to trace the genesis of some things like this. (I'm a history guy, after all). :)

8)

Now, I know Bach was considered deathly dull in Haydn's day, but someone must have remembered and played his music, or how would they have known to revive it. Particularly the works which were formally published must have been in circulation among learned connoisseurs and composers. The thing that movement from Hob XV 28 brings to mind is the prelude in b-minor from Bach's WTC Book I.

In any case, I listened to the piece and the middle movement was indeed striking. But if I dare raise the M-word on this thread, for comparison I pulled up Mozart's Piano Trio K548. What a dramatic contrast to the style of Haydn. I remember at first I did not appreciate these trios by Mozart at all, but later I realized that I could understand almost any piece of Mozart with Piano as a sort of Opera without words.




Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Scarpia on October 17, 2017, 09:30:39 PM
Now, I know Bach was considered deathly dull in Haydn's day, but someone must have remembered and played his music, or how would they have known to revive it. Particularly the works which were formally published must have been in circulation among learned connoisseurs and composers. The thing that movement from Hob XV 28 brings to mind is the prelude in b-minor from Bach's WTC Book I.

In any case, I listened to the piece and the middle movement was indeed striking. But if I dare raise the M-word on this thread, for comparison I pulled up Mozart's Piano Trio K548. What a dramatic contrast to the style of Haydn. I remember at first I did not appreciate these trios by Mozart at all, but later I realized that I could understand almost any piece of Mozart with Piano as a sort of Opera without words.

No worries there, mate: just like Haydn did, we love Mozart too. :)

Generally, Old Bach's music was NOT generally known, but the WTC is an exception, it was used as etudes, which, I think, is what it was written as. So you may well be right, I'll have to have a listen when I get home.

I know you're right about Haydn v Mozart. They are an entirely different style. Not one better than the other, so much as one of them the best in a style which became the popular and prevalent style, while the other was king in a style all his own. Maybe that's why they were BFF's, they were never in competition with each other. Haydn shamelessly promoted Mozart's music from when they first met until Haydn died. And vice-versa, I might add. FWIW, I do, and have always, greatly enjoy Mozart's keyboard trios. :)

8)
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Parsifal

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2017, 04:28:10 AM
No worries there, mate: just like Haydn did, we love Mozart too. :)

Generally, Old Bach's music was NOT generally known, but the WTC is an exception, it was used as etudes, which, I think, is what it was written as. So you may well be right, I'll have to have a listen when I get home.

I know you're right about Haydn v Mozart. They are an entirely different style. Not one better than the other, so much as one of them the best in a style which became the popular and prevalent style, while the other was king in a style all his own. Maybe that's why they were BFF's, they were never in competition with each other. Haydn shamelessly promoted Mozart's music from when they first met until Haydn died. And vice-versa, I might add. FWIW, I do, and have always, greatly enjoy Mozart's keyboard trios. :)

I'm not entirely sure which is which, Haydn and Mozart, respectively?

kyjo

Over the summer, I heard a vibrant performance of Haydn's Quartet op. 76/1 (in G major) by the up-and-coming Jasper Quartet (a fantastic group) and was struck by what a remarkable work it is. From the catchy first movement through the deeply felt second and hilariously unpredictable third to the vigorous, minor-key finale, it's a work that constantly surprised and delighted me. Another one of Haydn's quartets that really struck me is his op. 20/2 (in C major), with its noble opening cello solo, melancholy slow movement, wistful minuet, and masterly fugal finale. I also love the Lark Quartet despite having played it too many times. What are everyone's favorite Haydn quartets?
"Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music" - Sergei Rachmaninoff

Karl Henning

Quote from: kyjo on October 18, 2017, 08:26:21 AM
Over the summer, I heard a vibrant performance of Haydn's Quartet op. 76/1 (in G major) by the up-and-coming Jasper Quartet (a fantastic group) and was struck by what a remarkable work it is. From the catchy first movement through the deeply felt second and hilariously unpredictable third to the vigorous, minor-key finale, it's a work that constantly surprised and delighted me. Another one of Haydn's quartets that really struck me is his op. 20/2 (in C major), with its noble opening cello solo, melancholy slow movement, wistful minuet, and masterly fugal finale. I also love the Lark Quartet despite having played it too many times. What are everyone's favorite Haydn quartets?

I'm still absorbing them, so my favorite is apt to be, the quartet I just listened to  8)
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

North Star

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 18, 2017, 08:50:32 AM
Quote from: kyjo on October 18, 2017, 08:26:21 AM
Over the summer, I heard a vibrant performance of Haydn's Quartet op. 76/1 (in G major) by the up-and-coming Jasper Quartet (a fantastic group) and was struck by what a remarkable work it is. From the catchy first movement through the deeply felt second and hilariously unpredictable third to the vigorous, minor-key finale, it's a work that constantly surprised and delighted me. Another one of Haydn's quartets that really struck me is his op. 20/2 (in C major), with its noble opening cello solo, melancholy slow movement, wistful minuet, and masterly fugal finale. I also love the Lark Quartet despite having played it too many times. What are everyone's favorite Haydn quartets?
I'm still absorbing them, so my favorite is apt to be, the quartet I just listened to  8)
Ditto.
"Everything has beauty, but not everyone sees it." - Confucius

My photographs on Flickr

Parsifal

Quote from: kyjo on October 18, 2017, 08:26:21 AMWhat are everyone's favorite Haydn quartets?

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 18, 2017, 08:50:32 AM
I'm still absorbing them, so my favorite is apt to be, the quartet I just listened to  8)

That's the Haydn dilemma for me. There is so much of it relative to my rate of uptake, I will always be "still absorbing" them.

Karl Henning

Quote from: Scarpia on October 18, 2017, 09:02:05 AM
That's the Haydn dilemma for me. There is so much of it relative to my rate of uptake, I will always be "still absorbing" them.

I've made my peace with that, and am content to enjoy the ride listening 8)
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Parsifal

#11371
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 18, 2017, 09:09:34 AM
I've made my peace with that, and am content to enjoy the ride listening 8)

Generally yes, but I feel a lack of something. If you mention Mozart symphony no X, where X is greater than or equal to 29 I will have a distinct opinion on it. Same for Mozart string quartet Y, with Y greater than or equal to 14, or Piano Concerto Z, with Z greater or equal to 14.

If you ask me about a Haydn symphony and it's not Le Poule or the one I listened to last night you'll get a blank stare.

Gurn, quick, what do you think of Haydn Symphony No 37. No cheating!  :)

Parsifal

And again, no news on The Hobbit?

Jo498

Quote from: kyjo on October 18, 2017, 08:26:21 AM
Over the summer, I heard a vibrant performance of Haydn's Quartet op. 76/1 (in G major) by the up-and-coming Jasper Quartet (a fantastic group) and was struck by what a remarkable work it is. From the catchy first movement through the deeply felt second and hilariously unpredictable third to the vigorous, minor-key finale, it's a work that constantly surprised and delighted me. Another one of Haydn's quartets that really struck me is his op. 20/2 (in C major), with its noble opening cello solo, melancholy slow movement, wistful minuet, and masterly fugal finale. I also love the Lark Quartet despite having played it too many times. What are everyone's favorite Haydn quartets?
I share your enthusiasm about op.76/1 and op.20/2. I remember when I heard the latter first in concert I almost fell from my chair when the second movement began because even after the beautiful first movement I had not expected a comparably "early" piece (this is nonsense, Haydn was around 40 and had already written about a dozen divertimenti and another dozen of quartets but I was not really aware of such details back then) to be such a mature masterpiece. It is a great piece but I am probably even more fond of #4 with the great slow variations movement and the "hungarian" finale. The op. 20 sixpack is a stunning achievement.

I am not all that fond of the "Lark" anymore. I understand why it is so popular but I prefer from op.64 #2,#3 and #6.

Overall there are too many great ones to name favorites. Even the early divertimenti are enjoyable and have some very good (among other more routine or very slight "divertimento" pieces), e.g. the beautiful "echo" slow movement from op.1/3.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Scarpia on October 18, 2017, 08:08:42 AM
I'm not entirely sure which is which, Haydn and Mozart, respectively?

That would be my opinion. Half the musical world was copying Haydn for most of his working life. Very few were copying Mozart, at least, not during his lifetime.

8)
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: kyjo on October 18, 2017, 08:26:21 AM
Over the summer, I heard a vibrant performance of Haydn's Quartet op. 76/1 (in G major) by the up-and-coming Jasper Quartet (a fantastic group) and was struck by what a remarkable work it is. From the catchy first movement through the deeply felt second and hilariously unpredictable third to the vigorous, minor-key finale, it's a work that constantly surprised and delighted me. Another one of Haydn's quartets that really struck me is his op. 20/2 (in C major), with its noble opening cello solo, melancholy slow movement, wistful minuet, and masterly fugal finale. I also love the Lark Quartet despite having played it too many times. What are everyone's favorite Haydn quartets?

Boy, you picked some good ones! Op 76 1 & 2 are certainly in my top 5. Opus 50 #1 is too, and Opus 74 #3 and Op 77 #2. I hate to dwell too much on the late ones because plenty of early ones are first rate too, like Op 9 #4 (d minor) and a big handful in Op 17, 20 & 33. So....

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 18, 2017, 08:50:32 AM
I'm still absorbing them, so my favorite is apt to be, the quartet I just listened to  8)

I might end up chickening out like Karl... :D

8)
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Scarpia on October 18, 2017, 09:28:15 AM

Gurn, quick, what do you think of Haydn Symphony No 37. No cheating!  :)

That's one in C major and it starts out really fast for a symphony. I like it, IIRC, it was the first "Viennese Festive C Major" style symphony that Haydn wrote for the Prince. He had a particular way with that genre, like with #48 Maria Theresia for example. Several fine works in the "30's', like Hornsignal, #34 and #39.  :)

8)
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Parsifal

#11377
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2017, 12:59:33 PM
That's one in C major and it starts out really fast for a symphony. I like it, IIRC, it was the first "Viennese Festive C Major" style symphony that Haydn wrote for the Prince. He had a particular way with that genre, like with #48 Maria Theresia for example. Several fine works in the "30's', like Hornsignal, #34 and #39.  :)

8)

Well done! Now I'm suitably ashamed.  :)

Madiel

I'm weirdly proud of myself for having known that "no.37" is actually a pretty early symphony. That was as far as I got, though.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Parsifal

Quite so, I looked it up in the Gurn Haydn Symphony Concordance and apparently it is Haydn's second effort in the genre.   :o