Haydn's Haus

[DavidW]

Upon listening to #1-5 yesterday, I decided that #1-4 are rather lighthearted simple divertimenti, but symphony #5 has a little more heft to it.  Not so much so that it's "great" you know, just something I could find myself listening to a few more times.

[Gurn Blanston]

Upon listening to #1-5 yesterday, I decided that #1-4 are rather lighthearted simple divertimenti, but symphony #5 has a little more heft to it.  Not so much so that it's "great" you know, just something I could find myself listening to a few more times.

Well, the Hoboken #'s are so confusing in terms of actual chronology that it's hard to make a conclusion about the musicality based on them. #1 is indeed #1. But Hob 37 is actually #2!   And it's a solid symphony that was for years placed in 1768 with the Stürm und Dräng works when in fact it is from 10 years earlier, i.e. - 1758. There are many other examples of this, the most notable being that #72 is really #30! As for your impression of them, I agree, they are pretty much galant sinfonias, not a lot of depth to them and certainly some concertante parts for the soloists, but you can see how his style was well established quite early on.



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Listening to:
Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique / Gardiner - Beethoven Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 4th  mvmt pt 2 -  'O Freunde, Nicht Diese Tone!' Allegro assai (Final Chorus From Schiller's Ode To Joy)

[DavidW]

Yeah that is confusing!   Are the symphonies by Hob # or chronological order or other?

If not the middle, is there a list on the net of the chronological order?  Oh heck if there was a list by year I can have excel order it.

[Gurn Blanston]

Yeah that is confusing!   Are the symphonies by Hob # or chronological order or other?

If not the middle, is there a list on the net of the chronological order?  Oh heck if there was a list by year I can have excel order it.

Yeah, that New Zealand site with the Hob list also has the actual chrono list too in another column. I just copied and pasted it into Excel and reordered it, just as you say.

[Sergeant Rock]

As opposed to what, Sarge?

Effective contrast between movements. When the slow movement is this fast, it creates far less contrast between it and the preceding fast movement and the following dance movement. Contrast was a big part of the classical style. I believe some of the Hipsters get it wrong: too fast slow movements, way too fast dance movements (minuets) that don't contrast sufficiently with the concluding prestos. I don't think the older generation of conductors (Szell, Solti, Bernstein, Klemp, Krips, etc) were wrong. I think they knew proper tempos relationships. That doesn't mean I don't like HIP performances...I do, but I don't think they are necessarily always correct about tempos...just different.

Sarge

[DavidW]

Effective contrast between movements. When the slow movement is this fast, it creates far less contrast between it and the preceding fast movement and the following dance movement. Contrast was a big part of the classical style. I believe some of the Hipsters get it wrong: too fast slow movements, way too fast dance movements (minuets) that don't contrast sufficiently with the concluding prestos. I don't think the older generation of conductors (Szell, Solti, Bernstein, Klemp, Krips, etc) were wrong. I think they knew proper tempos relationships. That doesn't mean I don't like HIP performances...I do, but I don't think they are necessarily always correct about tempos...just different.

Sarge

Harnoncourt has that essence of contrast, in fact more so than the conductors that you mentioned.  In fact I think you've got it reversed.  HIPsters have MORE of a contrast between fast and slow movements than your favorite conductors do.  Your conductors will play the fast movements slow as well.  I remember the DG Bernstein and the Bohm recordings of Mozart's symphonies, they are so lethargic!

[Gurn Blanston]

Dave,
Like Hurwitz (well, just the opposite, I suppose) I am also agenda-esque, especially when it comes to Haydn. I have that Quintana disk of Op 77, it was my very first PI quartets recording way back in 1995.   I can't compare with their Arcana disk since I don't have that one, my only opening in the set. But it is very nice, and sold me on those works right from the first listening.

Everything I have heard about the London disks is that they are very beautifully and smoothly played. Which is great if that is what you are looking for in Haydn. As you know from my post yesterday AM, it is not what I am looking for, sadly, so I have saved my money in this case. If I am wrong, I won't be sorry, since I greatly enjoy my QF Op 9 anyway and really don't need another version to keep me happy.   However, as Que's tagline implies, there is no accounting for taste.



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Listening to:
La Petite Bande / Kuijken Wallfisch - Hob 07a 04 Concerto in G for Violin 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato

[Sergeant Rock]

Even a typical adagio in Nielsen is not slow enough for him.  He likes it ssssllllloooowwww.  Not surprised he's listening to Klemperer.

 Yeah, it's no secret that, given two performances of equal quality, i'll opt nine times out of ten for the slower performance. I like to smell the roses  

Seriously, one of the greatest pleasures I find in classical music is listening to all that interesting stuff going on underneath the main melody. Slow tempos help clarify, help you hear that detail, the inner workings; allows time for contemplation. I have immense patience. I admire conductors who have a similar patience not to rush through. A conductor like Klemperer does not in any way violate the spirit of Haydn just because he takes two minutes longer over the slow movement than some speed demon HIPster who's in a rush to get the music over with as quickly as possible because some theory tells him so.

Again, I love HIP performances too and in this forum anyway, I'm one of the few who actually loves the most radical Beethoven cycle: Norrington's LCP. I don't believe that's the only way to play Beethoven though.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

Harnoncourt has that essence of contrast, in fact more so than the conductors that you mentioned.  In fact I think you've got it reversed.  HIPsters have MORE of a contrast between fast and slow movements than your favorite conductors do.  Your conductors will play the fast movements slow as well.  I remember the DG Bernstein and the Bohm recordings of Mozart's symphonies, they are so lethargic!

I don't like either of those conductors in Mozart (I'm not even a fan of Böhm's Mozart operas). I love Szell and Klemperer. They do provide the contrast. Just listen to Klemp's little G minor.

Sarge

[Gurn Blanston]

Effective contrast between movements. When the slow movement is this fast, it creates far less contrast between it and the preceding fast movement and the following dance movement. Contrast was a big part of the classical style. I believe some of the Hipsters get it wrong: too fast slow movements, way too fast dance movements (minuets) that don't contrast sufficiently with the concluding prestos. I don't think the older generation of conductors (Szell, Solti, Bernstein, Klemp, Krips, etc) were wrong. I think they knew proper tempos relationships. That doesn't mean I don't like HIP performances...I do, but I don't think they are necessarily always correct about tempos...just different.

Sarge

I don't know about that. I also listened to the menuetto, and I think he got that pretty good too. I am not going to rely on David's argument beyond saying that I agree with what he is saying. I think the conductors you mention DID get it wrong. Even though their playing is very nice, and I'm not saying otherwise, the intervening 19th century totally changed the trend of the minuet in particular, as well as several other tempo indications. Haydn marked many of his minuets 'presto', and I don't think he did that by mistake. If you go back and look at the added in metronome markings of people like Czerny, who was alive throughout the period, you find them to be a lot faster than what was played in the 1950's. They are playing Haydn like he was played in 1850.

I think that you started listening to music in the '60's, and the style that was prominent in those days sounds right to you. I don't have an argument to advance against that, since everyone should listen to what they like. However, I will fall back on the old "If Haydn was alive today..." argument here and say that he would recognize the zippy performances as what he had in mind when he wrote those works.

[DavidW]

Slow tempos help clarify, help you hear that detail, the inner workings; allows time for contemplation. I have immense patience.

I think I agree with that.  In a Bach keyboard piece I'll have to listen to it several times to make sense of it because it's played so fast the notes practically blend into each other.  When played substantially slower, I'm like oh that makes sense! and I perceive the architecture.

[DavidW]

I don't like either of those conductors in Mozart (I'm not even a fan of Böhm's Mozart operas). I love Szell and Klemperer. They do provide the contrast. Just listen to Klemp's little G minor.

Sarge

Haven't heard Klemperer, but I know that Szell does.  Good catch.

[Antoine Marchand]

Listening to:
La Petite Bande / Kuijken Wallfisch - Hob 07a 04 Concerto in G for Violin 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato

Hey, hey, Gurn. Your machine is delivering some wrong references.  

[Gurn Blanston]

Hey, hey, Gurn. Your machine is delivering some wrong references.  

Ah,  I see now. That's what I get for letting FreeDb do ANYTHING for me.  That's a double CD and the first disk is Kuijken, but the 2nd disk is OAE / Walffisch.    My bad.



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Listening to:
Musica Antiqua Amsterdam / Koopman - Hob 18 03 Concerto in F for Keyboard 3rd mvmt - Presto

[Antoine Marchand]

That's a double CD and the first disk is Kuijken, but the 2nd disk is OAE / Walffisch.    My bad.

Yes, I have the same Virgin Veritas x 2. I bought it just for those two violin concertos and the sinfonia concertante because I already had the symphonies of the first disc. Nice performances. 

[Gurn Blanston]

Yes, I have the same Virgin Veritas x 2. I bought it just for those two violin concertos and the sinfonia concertante because I already had the symphonies of the first disc. Nice performances. 

Yeah, same here. Although last week I got the Arkiv disk of Standage doing all 3 concertos with the English Concert, and after an extended play-off, I decided to go with those in my Complete Haydn set. Just a bit more beef to them, I guess, plus the added bonus of the Concerto #3 in A major, something of a recorded rarity.



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Listening to:
Musica Antiqua Amsterdam / Koopman - Hob 18 04 Concerto in G for Keyboard 2nd mvmt - Adagio cantabile

[Antoine Marchand]

plus the added bonus of the Concerto #3 in A major, something of a recorded rarity.

I don't have that concerto on period instruments.  

[Gurn Blanston]

I don't have that concerto on period instruments.  

I didn't have it at all before I got this disk:



It is accepted as authentic (manuscript discovered by Robbins-Landon in 1950 at Melk (I think?)) but still rarely played. Nice piece though, glad I got it.



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Listening to:
Musica Antiqua Amsterdam / Koopman - Hob 18 04 Concerto in G for Keyboard 2nd mvmt - Adagio cantabile

[Antoine Marchand]

Recently, it has been issued a new HIP recording of the violin concertos number 1&4 by Rachel Podger & the OAE (Channel Classics).

Together with Standage/Pinnock, I know the existence of another two complete HIP recordings: Federico Gugliemo/L'Arte Dell'Arco (Brilliant) and Marc Destrubé/Pacific Baroque Orchestra (Atma). I'm considering all these options.

Although Podger's recording is not complete (coupled with Mozart's sinfonia concertante), I'm rather tempted because I love that girl (what an adorable creature!!!!) and some days ago I did read some enticing words about this recording:
"Pavlo and I had the extreme good fortune to play a Strad each! Generously loaned to us by the Royal Academy of Music for this project, we savoured every minute of having these esteemed and valuable instruments in our hands! 'Mine' is a proud instrument which demands careful negotiation and warming before it will expose it's beautiful colours. An amazing experience in itself to play an instrument like this, it was even more of an event when the two Strads met and 'spoke' to each other with a feeling of being acquainted, perhaps not for the first time..." Rachel Podger.

Additionally, I was watching this interesting promotional video on You Tube, although referred only to the Mozart's sinfonia concertante:

http://www.youtube.com/v/tScWu5YnF7o

[Gurn Blanston]

To keep the String Quartet topic from getting derailed (I am a major transgressor!) and because I feel that it deserves a topic of its own, I have split off the previous posts.

Discuss....