Author Topic: Haydn's Haus  (Read 1000304 times)

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Offline vers la flamme

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12060 on: September 07, 2019, 06:56:46 AM »
Weil/Tafelmusik seems to be the way to go. Thanks for the tip.

Offline Daverz

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12061 on: September 13, 2019, 01:37:48 PM »
So symphonies 90-92 are known as the Wallerstein symphonies.  I did not know that.  Haven't listened to this yet. 


Offline Florestan

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12062 on: September 13, 2019, 01:39:42 PM »
So symphonies 90-92 are known as the Wallerstein symphonies.

 ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
“I compose music because I must give expression to my feelings, just as I talk because I must give utterance to my thoughts.”  --- Rachmaninoff

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12063 on: September 13, 2019, 01:42:10 PM »
??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???

You're replacing Mirror Image as the most avatar-changing user.  ;D

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12064 on: September 13, 2019, 01:47:28 PM »
The Symphony No. 83 is one of my most beloved Haydn symphonies. As I am more a passional human being, I love the pushing and driving beginning. It's enough to give energy to the whole symphony. Really the title of The hen or Le poule is rather naïve and silly IMHO. This is music intelligently constructed, fun, rhytmic, melodious.

Offline Florestan

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12065 on: September 13, 2019, 01:48:45 PM »
You're replacing Mirror Image as the most avatar-changing user.  ;D

I know, I know... you're right... ;D

Boy scout honor, I'll stick to Серге́й Васи́льевич until I get tired of it.  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

“I compose music because I must give expression to my feelings, just as I talk because I must give utterance to my thoughts.”  --- Rachmaninoff

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12066 on: September 13, 2019, 02:15:26 PM »
I know, I know... you're right... ;D

Boy scout honor, I'll stick to Серге́й Васи́льевич until I get tired of it.  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

я aгрee!  0:)

Offline Florestan

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12067 on: September 13, 2019, 02:22:40 PM »
“I compose music because I must give expression to my feelings, just as I talk because I must give utterance to my thoughts.”  --- Rachmaninoff

Offline Madiel

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12068 on: September 13, 2019, 03:38:10 PM »
So symphonies 90-92 are known as the Wallerstein symphonies.

Who by?

I have professional experience of a small group of people coming up with terminology and then acting as if everyone else also uses it.

Haydn apparently managed to simultaneously compose symphonies commissioned for Paris and for this German principality... by giving them the same works.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2019, 03:42:35 PM by Madiel »
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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12069 on: September 13, 2019, 04:17:32 PM »
So symphonies 90-92 are known as the Wallerstein symphonies.  I did not know that.  Haven't listened to this yet.   

Here is the story, if anyone is interested. Part 1 - Part 2. Really, they are the Paris Symphonies Part 2, but as you will see, Haydn had other ideas!  :D

8)
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Offline Daverz

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12070 on: September 13, 2019, 04:25:38 PM »
So symphonies 90-92 are known as the Wallerstein symphonies.  I did not know that.  Haven't listened to this yet. 



I listened to 90.  Nice, but doesn't dislodge Dennis Russell Davies from the top spot.

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12071 on: September 13, 2019, 04:49:54 PM »
I listened to 90.  Nice, but doesn't dislodge Dennis Russell Davies from the top spot.

Haven't heard either one of those. I have Brüggen and Kuijken, pretty well satisfied on any given day listening to them. Of course, many more of #92... :)

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Offline SonicMan46

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12072 on: October 25, 2019, 08:46:04 AM »
Boy, I've not been here in a while!  A LOT of great activity - for those interested in the London Haydn Quartet's ongoing project of recording the SQs - just purchase their 8th release, Op. 71 & 74 - left the post below in the listening thread yesterday.  Dave

Quote
Haydn, Joseph - String Quartets, Op. 71 & 74 - new release by the London Haydn Quartet (recorded in October 2018) - I've been collecting this project from the beginning; their 8th double-disc release.  According to Wiki (2nd pic below; Source), Papa Haydn wrote 68 SQs, so the group is down to line 13 on the listing - have enjoyed these discs over the years.  Dave

P.S. in the painting, my guess is the usual trio Haydn played SQs w/ while in Vienna, i.e. Mozart, Vanhal, & Dittersdorf - need Gurn for verification- :)

 

Offline Jo498

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12073 on: October 25, 2019, 09:01:34 AM »
In the picture it looks as if Haydn plays the viola (or it is a really big violin!) but the viola player should be Mozart, I think. WAM is supposedly the leftmost player with the redddish hair whose instrument is blocked by the lanky guy in the foreground.
Further nitpicking: opp. 71/74 is the only opus composed for London concerts, so they would not have been played by that ensemble (another impediment would be that Mozart was already dead).
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Offline SonicMan46

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12074 on: October 25, 2019, 09:32:02 AM »
In the picture it looks as if Haydn plays the viola (or it is a really big violin!) but the viola player should be Mozart, I think. WAM is supposedly the leftmost player with the redddish hair whose instrument is blocked by the lanky guy in the foreground.
Further nitpicking: opp. 71/74 is the only opus composed for London concerts, so they would not have been played by that ensemble (another impediment would be that Mozart was already dead).

My thoughts were similar, i.e. in Vienna when Haydn played w/ the aforementioned composers, he was on violin and indeed the instrument in his hands looks like a viola, but I'm sure that the small string instrument parts could have been switched between Mozart & Haydn?  Vanhal would be on the cello and Ditters on the violin.  The painting is from the linked Wiki article and does not necessarily refer to the Op. 71/74 works which indeed were composed after Wolfie's death - likely an earlier date?  I did a limited search on the origins of the painting and the artist but to no avail - will try again.  Dave

ADDENDUM:  Below is all that I could find - painting in a Vienna Museum by an anonymous artist - date stated to be before 1790, so presumably Mozart on the far left.
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« Last Edit: October 25, 2019, 09:38:33 AM by SonicMan46 »

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12075 on: October 25, 2019, 09:54:30 AM »
In the picture it looks as if Haydn plays the viola (or it is a really big violin!) but the viola player should be Mozart, I think. WAM is supposedly the leftmost player with the redddish hair whose instrument is blocked by the lanky guy in the foreground.
Further nitpicking: opp. 71/74 is the only opus composed for London concerts, so they would not have been played by that ensemble (another impediment would be that Mozart was already dead).

I am curious where you got this information. That painting is called "Haydn conducting a performance of a string quartet" was painted by someone named Schmid sometime in the late 18th or early 19th century. Information beyond that is very scarce. The only thing I can say about it is that it is totally not appropriate for Op 71/74, for all the reasons you mention (yeah, death is a big impediment!). However, it is also not related to the performance of Mozart's 'Haydn Quartets', to which you seem to be referring. In that situation, Mozart was indeed playing the viola, while Haydn allegedly played first violin, although in reality, Ditters would have doubtless been doing so, he was a premier virtuoso.

My thoughts were similar, i.e. in Vienna when Haydn played w/ the aforementioned composers, he was on violin and indeed the instrument in his hands looks like a viola, but I'm sure that the small string instrument parts could have been switched between Mozart & Haydn?  Vanhal would be on the cello and Ditters on the violin.  The painting is from the linked Wiki article and does not necessarily refer to the Op. 71/74 works which indeed were composed after Wolfie's death - likely an earlier date?  I did a limited search on the origins of the painting and the artist but to no avail - will try again.  Dave

ADDENDUM:  Below is all that I could find - painting in a Vienna Museum by an anonymous artist - date stated to be before 1790, so presumably Mozart on the far left.
.


The player on the far left, who appears to be playing a violin, looks to me like a woman. Certainly there were women violinists in Vienna at the time, Regina Strinasacchi comes to mind, so it isn't impossible for sure. There were extremely few women fiddlers in England, however. It was socially frowned upon in a big way.

It really is a puzzling image. If it is genuinely from 1790, and not actually from later on, I can very well conceive it to be from the era of Opus 64. Mozart, Haydn and Abbe Maximilian Stadler regularly got together in 1789-90 and played Haydn's quartets and Mozart's string quintets, in which Mozart & Haydn played the violas. There were multitudes of string players who could have joined them.

8)
« Last Edit: October 25, 2019, 09:56:23 AM by Gurn Blanston »
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Offline Jo498

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12076 on: October 25, 2019, 10:01:13 AM »
This is interesting; I would have thought that it was a much later 19th century rendition.
Looking again, I am not even sure if the guy in the green coat is supposed to be Mozart. He doesn't look like him (neither does the player in the foreground, though). So maybe Mozart is not supposed to be in the picture at all and neither Vanhal or Dittersdorf and only Haydn is an actual historical person in the picture?
EDIT: the guy in green looks in fact somewhat feminine, but a woman in man's dress would not be there without a very particular reason, so I am pretty sure it is a male.

Sure, Mozart and Haydn could have switched places/instruments but the former's preference for the viola (when playing chamber music) seems well documented.

And it seems strange that Haydn should lead the performance (as he clearly is shown in the picture) from the viola, although it is of course not impossible.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2019, 10:04:37 AM by Jo498 »
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12077 on: October 25, 2019, 10:20:25 AM »
I said painting, but I should have said engraving. Dave's info indicates it was recolored at a later date, which I can imagine to be the case, since many engravings were in black & white. I have had this jpeg for several years, and so I can't remember where I got the info to title it, but I have it named

"Haydn leading a quartet 18th century engraving by Schmid"

which I wouldn't have done unless the source of the picture put that information in... :-\

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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12078 on: October 25, 2019, 10:24:39 AM »
This is interesting; I would have thought that it was a much later 19th century rendition.
Looking again, I am not even sure if the guy in the green coat is supposed to be Mozart. He doesn't look like him (neither does the player in the foreground, though). So maybe Mozart is not supposed to be in the picture at all and neither Vanhal or Dittersdorf and only Haydn is an actual historical person in the picture?
EDIT: the guy in green looks in fact somewhat feminine, but a woman in man's dress would not be there without a very particular reason, so I am pretty sure it is a male.

Sure, Mozart and Haydn could have switched places/instruments but the former's preference for the viola (when playing chamber music) seems well documented.

And it seems strange that Haydn should lead the performance (as he clearly is shown in the picture) from the viola, although it is of course not impossible.

Oddly enough, Haydn played the viola whenever he got the opportunity. If you listen to the Baryton Trios (Baryton, Viola & Cello), oftentimes the viola part is nicer than the others (in my ears anyway). Haydn always played it, with the Prince on Baryton and various cellists from the band. He did the same thing Mozart did, made the viola part better than it might have otherwise been and played it himself. In a string quartet, I suspect he would have done the same, let the guests play the fiddle while he played the lower ranges. It suits what I know of his character.

8)
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Offline Florestan

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12079 on: October 25, 2019, 10:31:45 AM »
I said painting, but I should have said engraving. Dave's info indicates it was recolored at a later date, which I can imagine to be the case, since many engravings were in black & white. I have had this jpeg for several years, and so I can't remember where I got the info to title it, but I have it named

"Haydn leading a quartet 18th century engraving by Schmid"

which I wouldn't have done unless the source of the picture put that information in... :-\

8)



The original image might actually have been reversed, which would explain Haydn's leading: he was originall at the right.
“I compose music because I must give expression to my feelings, just as I talk because I must give utterance to my thoughts.”  --- Rachmaninoff