Haydn's Haus

[calyptorhynchus]

I think it's time to tackle the piano sonatas. Which is the best PI cycle (playing and sound of the fortepiano)?

[JBS]

I think it's time to tackle the piano sonatas. Which is the best PI cycle (playing and sound of the fortepiano)?

I have Brautigam and Beghin. Both are good enough that I could suggest either one. Both include the non sonata works as well.

But I don't recall who else has done it. Bart van Oort did the non sonata works for Brilliant; that set is good, but I have no idea who did the sonatas for them.
ETA
Found the Brilliant set. It's a multi performer set, with van Oort contributing 2 CDs.

[Gurn Blanston]

I think it's time to tackle the piano sonatas. Which is the best PI cycle (playing and sound of the fortepiano)?

This is a larger question than it seems, as you can tell from the first reply you got. AFAIK, I have pretty much every PI Haydn keyboard disk, and I can put the full cycles into two main categories: those on fortepiano only, and those on a variety of instruments.

The fortepiano only sets are Brautigam, Odiaga and Brilliant. I won't try and dissuade you from any of those, they are all good and very enjoyable to listen to. My personal favorite among them is Odiaga, she has a nice-sounding fortepiano which she plays exceptionally well. She has a lighter touch than Brautigam, which I prefer in Haydn (who wrote all of his keyboard works for women, after all). The Oort et al set is also very well played, although it is hard for me to feel continuity with 5 different players, albeit very good players indeed!  The only comment I will make, which applies equally to all of them, is that during the composition of the first 3/4 of these works, Haydn didn't have a fortepiano and perhaps didn't really know enough about them to make any sort of decision about how to write for one.

The other sort of set, represented by Beghin and Schornsheim, uses a variety of keyboards, each of them chosen to be most appropriate for the music. The Beghin set is really quite fascinating with all that is going on. Beghin is a musicologist as well as a musician, and he gives you almost too much information to handle. I like that!  In addition, he attempts, and as far as I know, succeeds in giving you an accurate representation of playing as it was done at the time. If you don't believe in that premise, so be it. There are dozens of extant books (tutors) from the time, if you can play and read, you can learn how to play as they did.

Schornsheim is more laid back. I am very fond of her set, she includes some works which Beghin leaves out because they haven't been 100% verified.  She has some really nice sounding instruments too, especially her harpsichord. If I had to rescue one box from a disaster, it would probably be that one. Although, I have all of them ripped to FLAC, so maybe I'll just grab my external hard drive instead...



PS - What I have done in my own "full set" is pick out singles from ~20 different players/instruments. I'm quite happy with that.

[SonicMan46]

Apropos topic for me - just starting a close perusal of my Haydn collection and have accumulated a lot of duplication and triplication (and even more in certain genres) - regarding the Keyboard Sonatas on period instruments, I own the 3 sets below; also have Bart van Oort in the non-sonata works on fortepiano and Ekaterina Derzhavina on modern piano - looking forward to comments & recommendations.  Dave

   

[SonicMan46]

This is a larger question than it seems, as you can tell from the first reply you got. AFAIK, I have pretty much every PI Haydn keyboard disk, and I can put the full cycles into two main categories: those on fortepiano only, and those on a variety of instruments.

The fortepiano only sets are Brautigam, Odiaga and Brilliant. I won't try and dissuade you from any of those, they are all good and very enjoyable to listen to. My personal favorite among them is Odiaga, she has a nice-sounding fortepiano which she plays exceptionally well. She has a lighter touch than Brautigam, which I prefer in Haydn (who wrote all of his keyboard works for women, after all)...............

........................................

Hi Gurn - thanks for your comments on the PI sets - in all honesty, I've never heard of Lola Odiaga, although just read about her (impressive credentials!) - did you purchase the single discs (about a half dozen on Amazon USA) or is/was there a box?  Now, she is available on Spotify (pic below), so I'll take a listen.  Dave
.

[Jo498]

These three sets + more would be more than enough for most people as far as keyboard Haydn is concerned. If you can find them, there are three discs with Staier on fortepiano that are different (and a little more lively/extrovert, I'd say) from Schornsheim, but I have heard only one disc of Brautigam and none of Beghin. With modern instruments, Dershavina is quite special and I am not sure if there is a clearly superior set. There was a very cheap one by Piazzini (Arte Nova) that was pretty good, but Derszhavina is IMO superior. Another cheap rather uneven one (including some clangy sound) by Walid Akl on Discover.
The best additions would be probably some anthologies by famous pianists, such as 2-3 with Richter (live, I think) and the quirky but interesting late sonatas with Gould.

[Gurn Blanston]

Apropos topic for me - just starting a close perusal of my Haydn collection and have accumulated a lot of duplication and triplication (and even more in certain genres) - regarding the Keyboard Sonatas on period instruments, I own the 3 sets below; also have Bart van Oort in the non-sonata works on fortepiano and Ekaterina Derzhavina on modern piano - looking forward to comments & recommendations.  Dave

   

Hi Gurn - thanks for your comments on the PI sets - in all honesty, I've never heard of Lola Odiaga, although just read about her (impressive credentials!) - did you purchase the single discs (about a half dozen on Amazon USA) or is/was there a box?  Now, she is available on Spotify (pic below), so I'll take a listen.  Dave
.

Well, Dave, I have to tell you that in my opinion, you have everything you need right there!  If you want to pursue the Odiaga (which is very nice, although I would call optional given what you already have). There is no box.  I would start at BRO. They were recently selling Albany (TROY) disks at $1 each, and in fact, I am almost sure that Albany is the company that now owns BRO. Not sure how that all worked out. Anyway, there are also 3 disks which began that series on a different label, Titanic (yeah, seriously), which I got at AMP for relatively pennies, to give me the complete set.

[SonicMan46]

Well, Dave, I have to tell you that in my opinion, you have everything you need right there!  If you want to pursue the Odiaga (which is very nice, although I would call optional given what you already have). There is no box.  I would start at BRO. They were recently selling Albany (TROY) disks at $1 each, and in fact, I am almost sure that Albany is the company that now owns BRO. Not sure how that all worked out. Anyway, there are also 3 disks which began that series on a different label, Titanic (yeah, seriously), which I got at AMP for relatively pennies, to give me the complete set.

Thanks again Gurn - last night and this morning, I listened to the first 3 discs of Lola Odiaga on Spotify - enjoyable, but as already stated I'm trying to cull out recordings from my collection to recover some 'living space'   So, those 3 boxes should serve me well.

BTW - just checked BRO, and they have 5 Odiaga CDs selling for about 2 bucks each - I'm not going to bite this time, but others just getting into these Papa Haydn sonatas and wanting to start a collection might look there (of course, if an option - shipping is cheap in the USA).  Dave

[SonicMan46]

Today, I've been perusing my small Haydn flute collection along w/ the Hoboken catalogue to determine what Haydn really wrote and what may have been attributed to him - at the moment, I own the 3 CDs shown below (top), and at the bottom is a listing of Papa's flute works that I constructed from the Hob. listings, including my additions of how the recordings fit into the catalogue.

The Kuijken recorded 'Six Trios' which are IV:6-11 meant for 2 violins + cello or as they did flute + violin + cello; Camerata Köln recorded two parts of the catalog, as shown. Pahud and his Berlin group have an 'olio' of works - the first, Michael Haydn's 'Flute Concerto' in D which was attributed to his brother Joseph, although the latter may have written a similar one in D that has been lost; then the six 'Scherzando (Hob.II:33-38); and finally the spurious Haydn 'Flute Concerto' written by Leopold Hoffman - so bottom line in my mind is that Papa Joe has no extant flute concertos.  Well, all in a day's work -    Dave 

P.S. what about the 'Flute Quartets' (Hob.II:D9-11; II:G4) - cannot find 'in print' CD recordings - anyone; presume early works?

     

[Gurn Blanston]

Today, I've been perusing my small Haydn flute collection along w/ the Hoboken catalogue to determine what Haydn really wrote and what may have been attributed to him - at the moment, I own the 3 CDs shown below (top), and at the bottom is a listing of Papa's flute works that I constructed from the Hob. listings, including my additions of how the recordings fit into the catalogue.

The Kuijken recorded 'Six Trios' which are IV:6-11 meant for 2 violins + cello or as they did flute + violin + cello; Camerata Köln recorded two parts of the catalog, as shown. Pahud and his Berlin group have an 'olio' of works - the first, Michael Haydn's 'Flute Concerto' in D which was attributed to his brother Joseph, although the latter may have written a similar one in D that has been lost; then the six 'Scherzando (Hob.II:33-38); and finally the spurious Haydn 'Flute Concerto' written by Leopold Hoffman - so bottom line in my mind is that Papa Joe has no extant flute concertos.  Well, all in a day's work -    Dave 

P.S. what about the 'Flute Quartets' (Hob.II:D9-11; II:G4) - cannot find 'in print' CD recordings - anyone; presume early works?

     

Everything in Hoboken IV, # 1-11, is genuine Joseph Haydn flute music. Pretty much everything else is not. That pretty much simplifies things.     During his Esterházy years, he didn't write much for flute because for most of that time he didn't have a flutist. Sometimes he would write a flute part and one of his 2 oboe players would play flute instead, a common thing in those days. I am guessing this is how Pahud justifies including those. I don't have that disk, so I don't know for sure.



The Kuijken's also have this 2 disk set, which has the flute trios of Hob 4:1-4 that he wrote for Lord Abingdon in London. But the rest of it is called 'Opus 5' and is 2 genuine divertimentos for Flute, Oboe, 2 Violins & Cello (Hob 2:1 & 11). The remaining four may well have nothing to do with Haydn, just something the publisher strung together to make a dollar. Chances are nearly nil that Haydn even was aware of their existence.

That Camerata Köln disk is really nice, I like the Keyboard & Flute Trios on there too. Here are a couple of others you can probably stream and see if you like them, I do...

The Flute Trios Hob 4:6 thru 11   Interesting Backstory


And this one for the Keyboard & Flute Trios 


Anyway, AFAIK, there is no evidence whatsoever that J. Haydn ever wrote a flute concerto.

[calyptorhynchus]

Thanks for all the thoughts re the PI keyboard disks. I'll let you know what I decide to do.

[SonicMan46]

Thanks Gurn for adding the details and for the link to your blog, excellent read as usual!  My same conclusion about a supposed 'Flute Concerto' composed by Joe - thanks for showing the cover of the Kuijken boys w/ the 'Flute Quartets' - looking at the Amazon track listing, the same Hob. numbers as in my pic listings - the recording is available on Spotify, so will give that a listen later - Dave

[Gurn Blanston]

Thanks for all the thoughts re the PI keyboard disks. I'll let you know what I decide to do.

Indeed, please do.

[Gurn Blanston]

Thanks Gurn for adding the details and for the link to your blog, excellent read as usual!  My same conclusion about a supposed 'Flute Concerto' composed by Joe - thanks for showing the cover of the Kuijken boys w/ the 'Flute Quartets' - looking at the Amazon track listing, the same Hob. numbers as in my pic listings - the recording is available on Spotify, so will give that a listen later - Dave

You're welcome, Dave. Now that I know you have Spotify, I will be less reticent about rec'ing stuff. I always hated putting disks out there people could never find (hated when people did it to me, too!), but when you can stream it, you're all set.  There are 2 Kuijken Haydn sets, the one you pictured and the one I pictured. Yours has Hob 4:6-11 on it, plus 6 baryton trios arranged for flute. Even though Haydn didn't arrange those, I fully believe he knew about them, they were done as early as the 1770's. IIRC, you have this disk:



which was also arranged during in that time period, as were these for string trio:


All these different arrangements, and actually more, were published before Baryton trios were ever even heard of!

Back OT though,  I'll look through the Hob 2 divertimentos, I know some others use flute, just like there are some that actually use clarinet!

[SonicMan46]

You're welcome, Dave. Now that I know you have Spotify, I will be less reticent about rec'ing stuff. I always hated putting disks out there people could never find (hated when people did it to me, too!), but when you can stream it, you're all set.  There are 2 Kuijken Haydn sets, the one you pictured and the one I pictured. Yours has Hob 4:6-11 on it, plus 6 baryton trios arranged for flute. Even though Haydn didn't arrange those, I fully believe he knew about them, they were done as early as the 1770's. IIRC, you have this disk:

   

which was also arranged during in that time period, as were these for string trio:

All these different arrangements, and actually more, were published before Baryton trios were ever even heard of!

Back OT though,  I'll look through the Hob 2 divertimentos, I know some others use flute, just like there are some that actually use clarinet!

Yep, I have that first CD shown (not the other one) - love Jean-Claude Veilhan and have a number of his recordings, including the one inserted above.  I've been on Spotify for a number of years (part of my son's 'family plan') - have made dozens of playlists (a lot for Susan's pleasure to play on my den stereo during dinner) and preview a lot of recordings - BUT you're right, getting rid of CDs is not as painful as in the past (I donate to local charities/Goodwill/etc.) - if I make a 'mistake', well there is always Spotify (and of course others such as Apple or Amazon that one could be a subscriber) - streaming is killing the 'physical media' music industry, me thinks.  Dave

[Gurn Blanston]

Yep, I have that first CD shown (not the other one) - love Jean-Claude Veilhan and have a number of his recordings, including the one inserted above.  I've been on Spotify for a number of years (part of my son's 'family plan') - have made dozens of playlists (a lot for Susan's pleasure to play on my den stereo during dinner) and preview a lot of recordings - BUT you're right, getting rid of CDs is not as painful as in the past (I donate to local charities/Goodwill/etc.) - if I make a 'mistake', well there is always Spotify (and of course others such as Apple or Amazon that one could be a subscriber) - streaming is killing the 'physical media' music industry, me thinks.  Dave

I am very partial to Veilhan too. In fact, I was listening to this all afternoon:


Someone had a streaming thread here very recently. As I said there, I don't stream at all, but I now download FLAC's with PDF booklets instead of buying new CD's. Other than older disks which are not available as downloads, I have quit buying CD's.  FYI, a fine source for FLAC albums is Presto Classics over in England. They have a great selection. Usually $12 for an album, however, they often have sales, like right now, Ricercar are 40% off. 

[SonicMan46]

Papa Joe's Notturni, Lyra Concertos, etc. for the King of Naples and Others!

Well, now reviewing the 3 recordings below (Huss is a 6-CD set) - much was composed for the King of Naples (Ferdinand IV), especially the Notturni & Lyra Concertos; the middle left image shows listings from the Hoboken catalog of those compositions; for me, the most fascinating instrument is the Lyra Organizzata, basically an 'organ hurdy-gurdy' (described in the quote - source Victoria & Albert Museum - an original there is shown in the middle right image).  In the Coin recording, 2 Lyres are used in but 2 of the six tracks (why not more!) - these were reconstructed instruments (bottom two pics - Source).  All of the 'Lyra Concertos' are present on one of the Huss discs but wind instruments are substituted for the lyres.  Dave

The organ hurdy-gurdy (or lira organizzata) developed in the mid 18th century from a hurdy-gurdy fitted to organ pipes. A leading player of this instrument was Ferdinand IV, King of Naples (reigned 1759-1825), for whom Josef Haydn (1732-1809) composed music. This example was reputedly assembled by an unnamed Frenchman living in London. A hurdy-gurdy of about 1650 was fixed to the organ works, which were probably made about one hundred years later. The crank-handle which turns the hurdy-gurdy drone-wheel also activates the organ bellows. As well as the pipes at the front of the instrument, there is another set lying horizontally underneath the organ box.(Source)

   

 

 

[Gurn Blanston]

Papa Joe's Notturni, Lyra Concertos, etc. for the King of Naples and Others!

Well, now reviewing the 3 recordings below (Huss is a 6-CD set) - much was composed for the King of Naples (Ferdinand IV), especially the Notturni & Lyra Concertos; the middle left image shows listings from the Hoboken catalog of those compositions; for me, the most fascinating instrument is the Lyra Organizzata, basically an 'organ hurdy-gurdy' (described in the quote - source Victoria & Albert Museum - an original there is shown in the middle right image).  In the Coin recording, 2 Lyres are used in but 2 of the six tracks (why not more!) - these were reconstructed instruments (bottom two pics - Source).  All of the 'Lyra Concertos' are present on one of the Huss discs but wind instruments are substituted for the lyres.  Dave

   

 

 

You need to be aware that Haydn rewrote the notturnos AND the concertos when he went to London. The L'Archibudelli disks are London scoring. Which is to say, there are no Lira in them, instead he uses a flute and an oboe to play those parts.  Here is the whole story on the origin and scoring.  The London notturnos

He also did this to the concertos. The reason is that he did all this is because he had promised a new piece of music for each concert, and as far as London was concerned, this was new music. But they weren't going to be able to play them with Liras, so there you go.

The Huss disks are also the London version, which sort of pisses me off because they distinctly call that album "Music for the King of Naples", which it is and it isn't. Still, great album....

But 'Delirium' and the second album, this one here:


both use Liras, although one of the notturnos on the Delirium album is the London version, I think it was done to show the difference.

Here's the story of the concertos  Lira Concertos

Don't forget this disk. Despite being on modern instruments, it is actually the correct scoring for the Naples version of 6 of the notturnos, correct in every way (even clarinet) except that Klocker uses a tiny organ positiv instead of Liras. FWIW, it sounds great, and is one of the few non-PI disks I recommend of Haydn music:



This is some of my favorite Haydn music, I like all of it, Naples or London.

[SonicMan46]

You need to be aware that Haydn rewrote the notturnos AND the concertos when he went to London. The L'Archibudelli disks are London scoring. Which is to say, there are no Lira in them, instead he uses a flute and an oboe to play those parts.  Here is the whole story on the origin and scoring.  The London notturnos

He also did this to the concertos. The reason is that he did all this is because he had promised a new piece of music for each concert, and as far as London was concerned, this was new music. But they weren't going to be able to play them with Liras, so there you go.

The Huss disks are also the London version, which sort of pisses me off because they distinctly call that album "Music for the King of Naples", which it is and it isn't. Still, great album....

........both use Liras, although one of the notturnos on the Delirium album is the London version, I think it was done to show the difference.

Here's the story of the concertos  Lira Concertos

Don't forget this disk. Despite being on modern instruments, it is actually the correct scoring for the Naples version of 6 of the notturnos, correct in every way (even clarinet) except that Klocker uses a tiny organ positiv instead of Liras. FWIW, it sounds great, and is one of the few non-PI disks I recommend of Haydn music:



This is some of my favorite Haydn music, I like all of it, Naples or London.

Thanks Gurn - I was already aware of the change of instrumentation in the L'Archibudelli and Huss recordings and the reasons - thanks for the links for the details - just hoping to bring others coming to the thread who might be 'new' to these recordings and to the 'organ hurdy-gurdy' - not sure if there might be other recordings w/ this instrument - seems sad to reconstruct two new 'lyra organizzata' and not use them for other performances?

As to the Klöcker, the disc was listed in my database but could not find it amongst my Haydn collection - will look again; remember enjoying and cannot imagine culling the disc out, not sure at the moment?  Again, always enjoy reading your blog posts - much useful and informative insight.  Dave

[Jo498]

I have the DeLirium, one disk of Huss and the Klöcker. The Klöcker is probably my favorite. The Notturni are somewhat surprisingly often more substantial music than the concertos.

Note that these works were the sources of at least three symphonic Haydn movements (although all of them were not only re-orchestrated but expanded in the adaption process), namely the "Romance" from #100 and the 2nd and 4th movement of #89.