Haydn's Haus

Started by Gurn Blanston, April 06, 2007, 04:15:04 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Jo498 and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

calyptorhynchus

Just to let you know I decided to go with the Beghin set for the keyboard works. This was after listening to various samples available and mainly based on the use of different keyboards for different periods. It's held up in the mail atm, but should be here soon.

:)

Gurn, I was wondering, now that you've nearly got in 1800 with Haydn, would it be an idea to do a little essay drawing a picture of what Haydn was like and his habits. When I read biographies I always relish the moment when the writer does just that... Sometimes biographers never do and it's disappointing.

I know two things generally about Haydn: 1. He always composed at the keyboard, 2. He usually wrote the inner movements of a work first.

Are both of these true, what else can you tell us?
'Many men are melancholy by hearing music, but it is a pleasing melancholy that it causeth.' Robert Burton

SergeCpp

Hello to all! I'm new here.

* * *



Haydn Piano Chamber Music — Haydn Trio Eisenstadt

Do not miss Adagio from Concertino C Major, Hob. XIV:12 (I've listened then several other interpretations of this piece and this remained most charming for me.)



Austria's Haydn Trio Eisenstadt Play Live on Soundcheck
There is a strangeness in simple things.

Karl Henning

Quote from: SergeCpp on May 08, 2020, 01:34:40 PM
Hello to all! I'm new here.

* * *



Haydn Piano Chamber Music — Haydn Trio Eisenstadt

Do not miss Adagio from Concertino C Major, Hob. XIV:12 (I've listened then several other interpretations of this piece and this remained most charming for me.)



Austria's Haydn Trio Eisenstadt Play Live on Soundcheck

Welcome, Seryozha!
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

JBS

Quote from: SergeCpp on May 08, 2020, 01:34:40 PM
Hello to all! I'm new here.

* * *



Haydn Piano Chamber Music — Haydn Trio Eisenstadt

Do not miss Adagio from Concertino C Major, Hob. XIV:12 (I've listened then several other interpretations of this piece and this remained most charming for me.)



Austria's Haydn Trio Eisenstadt Play Live on Soundcheck

Welcome, indeed!

I have that set, and it is due a new listen, like many other things on my shelves.
But at the moment* my Haydn is the symphonies via the Hogwood AAM set.

*At the moment happens to be literally true. I currently have Symphony 27 in my player.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

Florestan

Finished a thorough listen of these sets:



Probably the finest sets of piano sonatas and piano trios ever composed.

In the process I've discovered the rules of thumbs to tell Mozart from Haydn.

1. If it's as cantabile as an operatic aria, then it's Mozart.

2. If there are quirky harmonies, then it's Haydn.

3. If the overall structure goes against anything you expect (such as, minuet last, theme and variations first, slow movement first or fast movement middle) then it's Haydn.

4. If the overall feeling is otherworldly, ecstatic and bitter-sweet, then it's Mozart.

5. If the overall feeling is down-to-earth, rustic and no-nonsense, then it's Haydn.







Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

calyptorhynchus

Quote from: Florestan on May 09, 2020, 10:54:28 AM


In the process I've discovered the rules of thumbs to tell Mozart from Haydn.

1. If it's as cantabile as an operatic aria, then it's Mozart.

2. If there are quirky harmonies, then it's Haydn.

3. If the overall structure goes against anything you expect (such as, minuet last, theme and variations first, slow movement first or fast movement middle) then it's Haydn.

4. If the overall feeling is otherworldly, ecstatic and bitter-sweet, then it's Mozart.

5. If the overall feeling is down-to-earth, rustic and no-nonsense, then it's Haydn.

I love those rules of thumb.  ;D
'Many men are melancholy by hearing music, but it is a pleasing melancholy that it causeth.' Robert Burton

George

Quote from: Florestan on May 09, 2020, 10:54:28 AM
Finished a thorough listen of these sets:



A desert island boxset for me!
"I can't live without music, because music is life." - Yvonne Lefébure

Jo498

I think rule 3 rather shows that the "standardization" we may be tempted to read off the most famous piano sonatas from the lat 18th and early 19th century is somewhat mistaken. One of the most famous Mozart sonatas K 331 has not the "typical" sequence but variations - menuet - rondo (and K 282 and 284 also depart from the typical).
Sure, most sonatas (and this is also true for Haydn) do have "fast/moderate - slow - fast" but different options or two movements only are sufficiently common that I don't think any contemporary would have found this a daring deviation.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Madiel

Pretty good rules of thumb.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Brian

I listened to Prokofiev's First Symphony yesterday and wondered if there are any other intentional stylistic copies or tributes or parodies of Haydn out there. Beethoven's Eighth Symphony might qualify? My mind also went to the early symphony by Bizet but that may be more in a generalized classical style than specifically Haydnesque.

Karl Henning

Quote from: Brian on May 26, 2020, 01:50:50 PM
I listened to Prokofiev's First Symphony yesterday and wondered if there are any other intentional stylistic copies or tributes or parodies of Haydn out there. Beethoven's Eighth Symphony might qualify? My mind also went to the early symphony by Bizet but that may be more in a generalized classical style than specifically Haydnesque.

That is largely how I hear the Shostakovich Ninth.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Jo498

No matter of tributes/parodies etc. neither Beethoven's 8th nor Prokofiev's classique, Bizet's or other classicist symphonies are so close that they could really be mistaken for Haydn. Maybe certain select passages (but this one can do with so many cases that it hardly shows anything). E.g. in the Prokofieve the gavotte would not be found in Haydn and the outer movements are also closer to Rossini, IMO.
Bizet supposedly took a symphony by Gounod as inspiration for his.

Not surprisingly, symphonies contemporary with or shortly after Haydn can be much closer than any homage decades later. The C major symphony by Friedrich Witt that was for some time attributed to the young Beethoven (as "Jena symphony") is modelled very closely after Haydn's #97
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Madiel

Well I know at least half a dozen tributes: 6 French composers in 1909. Including Ravel's Menuet on the name of Haydn and Debussy's Hommage.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Brian

#12213
Quote from: Jo498 on May 26, 2020, 11:17:52 PM
Bizet supposedly took a symphony by Gounod as inspiration for his.
It's very clear when you hear the Gounod (his First). They're very similar.

Thanks all for the suggestions so far. I agree with Jo that Rossini also looms large in many of these works - I think there is a bit of Rossini parody in the finale of Beethoven's Eighth, when the coda stops dead for the French horns and flutes to do a chipper little tootle of the main theme, and then the whole orchestra jumps back in. (I don't mind if a conductor slows way down for those solos, then goes back to the basic fast tempo for the tutti.)

calyptorhynchus

OK, so finally the Beghin box arrived and I've been reading the booklet. My understanding is that Beghin and team went around various historic rooms that the Haydn keyboard works would have been played in, made acoustic measurements and back in Canada created virtual aural replicas of those rooms for Beghin to practise in and record the works (on appropriate instruments).

I haven't actually listened to any of the disks yet, I'm sure they sound good, but wouldn't it have been easier just to take the instruments to the rooms and record in them, especially as he would have had ship the instruments from Europe to Canada. It doesn't actually explain in the booklet what is gained by creating these virtual rooms.  :D
'Many men are melancholy by hearing music, but it is a pleasing melancholy that it causeth.' Robert Burton

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on May 27, 2020, 01:21:58 PM
OK, so finally the Beghin box arrived and I've been reading the booklet. My understanding is that Beghin and team went around various historic rooms that the Haydn keyboard works would have been played in, made acoustic measurements and back in Canada created virtual aural replicas of those rooms for Beghin to practise in and record the works (on appropriate instruments).

I haven't actually listened to any of the disks yet, I'm sure they sound good, but wouldn't it have been easier just to take the instruments to the rooms and record in them, especially as he would have had ship the instruments from Europe to Canada. It doesn't actually explain in the booklet what is gained by creating these virtual rooms.  :D

What I understand is this: you have had an harpsichord (for example) constructed to be a duplicate of one which was actually used to play his music (by the original player, who would be the dedicatee). If you wish to recreate the experience, then the next logical step is to try and recreate the ambiance of the room in which it was played. I would say it was the same principle employed in the current (wonderful) Beethoven cycle by Haselböck in which the 9 are played in the same places as they were originally premiered. Of course, since Beghin came first...



He wrote a book about it, which gives a lot more information about his intentions and also what he put into the third aspect, the playing itself. I know some people here who don't believe how much is known on this subject, but if it is out there, this guy knows it. :)

8)
Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Madiel

That still doesn't really explain why you'd go through all the gimmickry of recreating the ambience of a room when the room exists. Just use the room. If you wish to recreate the experience, THAT is the logical step.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Biffo

Not all these rooms can have ideal acoustics. Why not just choose the best one and record everything there?

Florestan

#12218
Quote from: Madiel on May 27, 2020, 11:35:52 PM
That still doesn't really explain why you'd go through all the gimmickry of recreating the ambience of a room when the room exists. Just use the room. If you wish to recreate the experience, THAT is the logical step.

+ 1.

Besides, the ambiance of the room back then meant not only the room itself and its acoustics, but also the audience in the room and their behaviour during performance. Recreating the room only does not give the full experience.  ;D
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

JBS

Quote from: Biffo on May 28, 2020, 01:14:44 AM
Not all these rooms can have ideal acoustics. Why not just choose the best one and record everything there?

The idea was to recreate with the original listener heard, bad acoustic or not.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk