Haydn's Haus

Started by Gurn Blanston, April 06, 2007, 04:15:04 PM

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Brian

Dave Hurwitz has extremely harsh words about the Doric Quartet recording of Op. 33. I'd previously enjoyed some Doric volumes, although the sound quality had seemed to differ in each release. Here's DH:

"Consider their ridiculously exaggerated tempos: finales and, occasionally, scherzos (No. 5's for instance) played so fast as to be rendered featureless. Then there is their revolting habit of italicizing virtually every phrase. Listen to the start of Quartet No. 4, or the hopelessly flabby opening of the B Minor Quartet (No. 1), an approach that negates every impulse towards the necessary forward momentum. Dynamics are relentlessly exaggerated throughout. The trio of the scherzo in the "Joke" Quartet, with its humorous glissandos, takes place in another (much slower) universe entirely.

"All of this drives home perhaps the most significant issue: the Op. 33 quartets contain some of Haydn's most hilarious music, but the Doric has not a shred of comic timing. Their dully predictable application of what they no doubt consider to be "authentic" mannerisms operates completely independently of what the music is trying to express, defeating Haydn's evident intentions at every turn. Consider the delicious slow movement of Quartet No. 5, an exaggeratedly tragic aria that invites the principal violin to "ham it up" as much as possible. First violinist Alex Redington misses the point entirely, offering thin tone at an excessively slow tempo. Most quartets wreck the ending, rendering Haydn's last, hilariously dismissive pizzicato "plonk" piano instead of at the indicated forte. The Doric gets the dynamics right, which is admirable, but their timing is still somehow off."

https://www.classicstoday.com/review/the-doric-disses-haydns-op-33/

Jo498

Hurwitz did a Haydn quartet survey on youtube recently. To my surprise he falsely claimed that the Buchberger was playing on old instruments (they are somewhat historically informed but clearly a modern ensemble) and I was almost as surprised that he picked the Apponyi op.33 as fav for that opus. No, this is doubtlessly a very good recording but I think it tends to the abrasive side of HIP (like Musica Antiqua in their prime).
Hurwitz can be so harsh on some period instrument recordings, that it's always a bit surprising when he likes one that seems to exhibit the "faults" (wiry and not always pleasant sounds) he usually complains about. I have not heard any Doric but IIRC the Apponyi in fact do that ironic? closure of the  "violin aria" mentioned above, very convincingly. In fact, this was my first complete recording op.33, so I was  somewhat surprised when other ensembles played this piece "seriously" (It's a bit similar with the overdecorated adagio in Beethoven's op.31/1 that can be played like a parody (e.g. by Gulda) or seriously (like Schnabel, Arrau or Gilels do).
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Jo498

FWIW Hurwitz' choices with my comment, if I know the recording

op.1+2, 42,103 Tatrai/hungaroton
op.9 Buchberger/Brilliant - pretty good, I had two or three volumes of theirs and kept only this (but mainly because lack of competition, my overall fav for op.1 through 17 is still Angeles in their big box)
op.17 Leipzig/MDG
op.20 Daedalus/Bridge (never even heard of the ensemble)
op.33 Apponyi/Ars musici, see above. They are thrilling, but pretty abrasive HIP, for a similar approach I prefer the equally manic but more appealing sounding Cuarteto casals
op.50 Tokyo/DG, one of the most famous Haydn Qt. recordings, but I have not heard it. My rec is the Amati/Divox which has been reissued as a cheap twofer but was worth its price as two not so cheap singles
op.54/55 Auryn/Tacet and he says that Auryn is a great choice for the whole bunch. As far as great sound and very good playing goes, certainly correct (I have not heard their 54/55).
op.64 Amadeus/DG I disagree that this is their best Haydn. I am not fond of their sound and Brainin's solo in the Lark, not for me. If Amadeus, I'd rather get their op.54/55
op.71/74 Griller/Vanguard as he points out, lacking many repeats but very lively
op.76 Takacs/Decca (don't know it but there are of course plenty of good recordings of that one)
op.77 Mosaiques/Naive (or whatever they are on these day) I concur that this is a very good recording

Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Madiel

I tried the Doric's op.20 a while ago as part of my general quest to figure out what versions I was going to buy for all the opuses I don't yet own. I thought it was okay but didn't really like the string tone, a bit on the thin side.
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Madiel

Quote from: Jo498 on November 09, 2020, 07:05:31 AM
Hurwitz did a Haydn quartet survey on youtube recently. To my surprise he falsely claimed that the Buchberger was playing on old instruments (they are somewhat historically informed but clearly a modern ensemble)

He literally corrects that in the very review we're talking about.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

amw

Quote from: Jo498 on November 09, 2020, 08:54:20 AM
FWIW Hurwitz' choices with my comment, if I know the recording

op.1+2, 42,103 Tatrai/hungaroton
op.9 Buchberger/Brilliant - pretty good, I had two or three volumes of theirs and kept only this (but mainly because lack of competition, my overall fav for op.1 through 17 is still Angeles in their big box)
op.17 Leipzig/MDG
op.20 Daedalus/Bridge (never even heard of the ensemble)
op.33 Apponyi/Ars musici, see above. They are thrilling, but pretty abrasive HIP, for a similar approach I prefer the equally manic but more appealing sounding Cuarteto casals
op.50 Tokyo/DG, one of the most famous Haydn Qt. recordings, but I have not heard it. My rec is the Amati/Divox which has been reissued as a cheap twofer but was worth its price as two not so cheap singles
op.54/55 Auryn/Tacet and he says that Auryn is a great choice for the whole bunch. As far as great sound and very good playing goes, certainly correct (I have not heard their 54/55).
op.64 Amadeus/DG I disagree that this is their best Haydn. I am not fond of their sound and Brainin's solo in the Lark, not for me. If Amadeus, I'd rather get their op.54/55
op.71/74 Griller/Vanguard as he points out, lacking many repeats but very lively
op.76 Takacs/Decca (don't know it but there are of course plenty of good recordings of that one)
op.77 Mosaiques/Naive (or whatever they are on these day) I concur that this is a very good recording


I would add:
Tatrai/Hungaroton 1, 2, 42, 103—no, borderline unlistenable due to persistent intonation problems. for Op. 1 and 2 the Auryn Quartett probably strikes the right balance of aristocratic & comic, not sure what I'd recommend for 42 and 103 but almost any other recording
Buchberger 9—decent, but I think outclassed by the London Haydn Quartet & Quatuor Festetics to a lesser degree
Leipzig 17—haven't heard it; current recommendation would probably also be the LHQ
Daedalus 20—have heard of it but not heard it; current recommendation would be the Chiaroscuro, Hagen and Pellegrini Quartets
Apponyi 33—agree with this but think the LHQ is also essential for a completely different view
Tokyo 50—no, doesn't hold up technically except in the tight ensemble playing; Amati, Leipzig, LHQ all much better
Auryn 54/55—mostly agree with this
Amadeus 64—definitely disagree with this. would name Mosaïques, LHQ, Doric as probable first choices depending on one's exact tastes
Griller 71/74—haven't heard it but am sure it's good; current recommendation would be Auryn first recording (1994) for 71 and not sure about 74
Takacs 76—agree with this but Buchberger also very good & Chiaroscuro (incomplete) shaping up to be essential
Mosaïques 77—mostly agree with this

obviously I am a bit of a London Haydn Quartet partisan....

Madiel

Quote from: amw on November 10, 2020, 02:05:26 AM
I would add:
Tatrai/Hungaroton 1, 2, 42, 103—no, borderline unlistenable due to persistent intonation problems. for Op. 1 and 2 the Auryn Quartett probably strikes the right balance of aristocratic & comic, not sure what I'd recommend for 42 and 103 but almost any other recording
Buchberger 9—decent, but I think outclassed by the London Haydn Quartet & Quatuor Festetics to a lesser degree
Leipzig 17—haven't heard it; current recommendation would probably also be the LHQ
Daedalus 20—have heard of it but not heard it; current recommendation would be the Chiaroscuro, Hagen and Pellegrini Quartets
Apponyi 33—agree with this but think the LHQ is also essential for a completely different view
Tokyo 50—no, doesn't hold up technically except in the tight ensemble playing; Amati, Leipzig, LHQ all much better
Auryn 54/55—mostly agree with this
Amadeus 64—definitely disagree with this. would name Mosaïques, LHQ, Doric as probable first choices depending on one's exact tastes
Griller 71/74—haven't heard it but am sure it's good; current recommendation would be Auryn first recording (1994) for 71 and not sure about 74
Takacs 76—agree with this but Buchberger also very good & Chiaroscuro (incomplete) shaping up to be essential
Mosaïques 77—mostly agree with this

obviously I am a bit of a London Haydn Quartet partisan....

Whereas I found LHQ 9 horrible, utterly loved at least one movement of Tokyo 50 when it came up in a blind listening here on GMG some years ago, didn't like Chiaroscuro 20 at all...
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aukhawk

Quote from: Brian on November 09, 2020, 05:38:55 AM
Dave Hurwitz has extremely harsh words about the Doric Quartet recording of Op. 33. I'd previously enjoyed some Doric volumes, although the sound quality had seemed to differ in each release. Here's DH:

Some personnel changes between each release, to judge by the cover images, could explain the sound differences.  I like the Dorics a lot, which is not to say they're my absolute No.1 choice.

Jo498

#12448
Until these comments on op.33 I had seen almost nothing but praise for the Doric, both for their Haydn as well as for Korngold or whatever else they did (I have not heard any of their recordings). The London Haydn Q seemed more controversial but I simply couldn't be bothered to buy any of theirs feeling quite saturated with Haydn (same with the Doric, only the LHC (Linear Hadron Collider was first) had the additional attraction of being HIP and covering less covered terrain)

If money is not an issue, one can get all with the Auryn for superlative sound, especially the numbers up to op. 17 and others not so well covered. I am poor and already have a full shelf with Haydn, so I only have their opp.17,33 and the older recording of 71. And I didn't like the op.33 as much as I hoped. (Nevertheless, I'd say that opp.20,33,76 and 77 are covered quite well with a broad range of good to excellent recordings available).
And the Petersen op.1 should be mentioned, unfortunately the only Haydn they recorded.

I finally got the Juilliard Epic box with their great (albeit repeat-free) op.54, unfortunately not available separately. As I said I have not heard the Auryn, Doric and LHC in these works but opp. 54/55, 64 and 71/74 are probably the ones still awaiting a really good modern (or any) recording.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Mandryka

Quote from: amw on November 10, 2020, 02:05:26 AM
Daedalus 20—have heard of it but not heard it;

On the basis of one of the quartets, #2, it feels a bit granny /maiden aunt style.Sorry I don't know of a non sexist way to say it.

I like old git style. Do Americans understand the word git? Autocorrect on the iPad doesn't!
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

amw

Quote from: Madiel on November 10, 2020, 03:03:11 AM
Whereas I found LHQ 9 horrible, utterly loved at least one movement of Tokyo 50 when it came up in a blind listening here on GMG some years ago, didn't like Chiaroscuro 20 at all...
That's fair. I think people who really dislike the London Haydn Quartet almost always end up liking the Quatuor Festetics, and vice versa, which is something to bear in mind whenever I give recommendations.

I still don't understand the classic status of the Tokyo op. 50 or why so many people love it—still have a copy though (which I spent actual money on, so I'm fairly attached to it) in case it ever clicks.

(The Auryn complete set would be an immediate recommendation if they put it into a box set. Maybe they will consider that now that the ensemble is retiring. It's also now available on most streaming services, which at this point should probably make it a top "consensus" recommendation since most people don't buy CDs anymore and it's better than the Angeles or Aeolian Quartets etc. That said I've come across some people who think their style is boring.)

Madiel

Whichever bit of the Auryn I managed to sample did feel a little bit smooth and polite.

I would really like to get the Mosaiques if I can pick up some of their recordings at a reasonable price. I also want to get Amati in... it's one of the 50s, I don't have my notes right now.
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Jo498

The Amati's op.50 on Divox was on two single discs but apparently has been repackaged as a twofer and was recently very cheap at jpc; two discs for half of what I paid 15 years ago for each of the singles which might not help US/AUS/NZ listeners). They also did op.77,1+2 (not quite as good as their op.50, I think) and a mixed Haydn/Mozart disc that has one from op.33 (I have not heard that last disc.

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/joseph-haydn-complete-stringquartets-op-50/hnum/8762234
https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Amati-Quartett/hnum/4154309
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Daverz

I really like the Fine Arts Quartet's Op. 50 in the Vox Box Haydn Quartet set.  Qobuz and 7 Digital have it as lossless downloads ($8 from Qobuz for the complete quartets) and Amazon has MP3 (maybe AmazonHD has FLAC?).   



https://open.qobuz.com/album/0047163598524

https://us.7digital.com/artist/dekany-quartet-and-fine-arts-quartet/release/haydn-complete-string-quartets-the-voxmegabox-edition-4524105

https://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Complete-String-Quartets-VoxMegaBox/dp/B00YRDOGKQ

Brian

I've heard a few Auryn discs and enjoyed them so far. I also enjoyed streaming a couple of previous Doric releases. The only quartet I've consistently disliked is...well...the London Haydn Quartet, which seems like it's trying to emulate not just 1700s style, but 1700s amateur style in somebody's drafty country house. My dislike of LHQ isn't ideological or rabid like Hurwitz's, it's purely aesthetic.

vers la flamme

Quote from: Mandryka on November 10, 2020, 08:50:51 AM
On the basis of one of the quartets, #2, it feels a bit granny /maiden aunt style.Sorry I don't know of a non sexist way to say it.

I like old git style. Do Americans understand the word git? Autocorrect on the iPad doesn't!

No.

Madiel

Quote from: Jo498 on November 10, 2020, 12:06:33 PM
The Amati's op.50 on Divox was on two single discs but apparently has been repackaged as a twofer and was recently very cheap at jpc; two discs for half of what I paid 15 years ago for each of the singles which might not help US/AUS/NZ listeners). They also did op.77,1+2 (not quite as good as their op.50, I think) and a mixed Haydn/Mozart disc that has one from op.33 (I have not heard that last disc.

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/joseph-haydn-complete-stringquartets-op-50/hnum/8762234
https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Amati-Quartett/hnum/4154309

Yes I'm aware of the repackaging. That's why it got on my shopping list, really.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

staxomega

#12457
Quote from: amw on November 10, 2020, 10:54:40 AM
That's fair. I think people who really dislike the London Haydn Quartet almost always end up liking the Quatuor Festetics, and vice versa, which is something to bear in mind whenever I give recommendations.

Interesting observation, why do you think that is? I certainly fall into the loving Festetics category but I only listen to Op. 71 from London Haydn Quartet with any regularity.

For the other quartets LHQ are tolerable in small doses, my main complaint with them wasn't with their tone or intonation it was just that they were a bit wild in some fast movements; almost like a HIP Lindsays with some additional quirks like some haphazard rubato (doesn't sound unnatural or forced) and odd phrasing. Or moments when you think the first violinist is going to run away with it and fall apart just to have the rest of the ensemble "catch up". It was like it was more mental processing required to listen to them than what should be necessary. I should revisit their recordings, who knows maybe over familiarity with the music this would now make them a welcome alternative view. I don't think I have heard the LHQ in op. 9.

I'm only half way through Auryn and I agree with others that they are smooth. So far their Haydn recordings are the only ones I've found to be a must have from them.

SonicMan46

For those interested in the London Haydn Quartet's recordings of Papa's SQs (I own all through the one below released in the fall of 2019) - curious about the plans for the remaining performances?  So visited their website HERE and on their 'Contact Tab', several email addresses were present - I contacted Catherine Manson and she responded w/i a few days - here comments are below for those interested.  Dave :)

QuoteHi Dave,

Great to hear from you and so pleased to hear you are looking forward to the next releases. The good news is that op 76s are already finished and awaiting release. This was supposed to be in January but I see it has now been pushed back to February. We were very lucky to be able to finish recording them just days before everything shut down in March. At the moment we don't know when our next lucky moment will be in which to record the op 77s, op 42 and Seven Last Words but we are looking forward to that moment very eagerly!

Thanks again for your email - it's so good to hear that you are enjoying these recordings of this wonderful music.

All very best wishes,

Catherine

 

Karl Henning

Quote from: Madiel on November 10, 2020, 01:03:36 AM
He literally corrects that in the very review we're talking about.

Good for him.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot