Author Topic: Haydn's Haus  (Read 1361813 times)

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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12540 on: July 27, 2021, 05:37:54 PM »
My eybrow curls upward in a meaning way when I reas the name Haydn in an unusual context. I'm reading Backwards Into the Future: The Recorded History of The Firesign Theatre. (I've dipped into it haphazardly for a few years, but now I'm reading it properly, and early in the chapter dedicated to Sagittarian Peter Bergman what should I read but:

It was at Yale in the early 60s Bergman's talents in politics and performance began to emerge. He had written the lyrics for several musical productions While a member of the Dramat, Tom Jones, Booth Is  Back in Town, and also adapted and translated lyrics for the newly-discovered Haydn opera, House of Fire ....
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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12541 on: July 28, 2021, 04:56:47 AM »
My eybrow curls upward in a meaning way when I reas the name Haydn in an unusual context. I'm reading Backwards Into the Future: The Recorded History of The Firesign Theatre. (I've dipped into it haphazardly for a few years, but now I'm reading it properly, and early in the chapter dedicated to Sagittarian Peter Bergman what should I read but:

It was at Yale in the early 60s Bergman's talents in politics and performance began to emerge. He had written the lyrics for several musical productions While a member of the Dramat, Tom Jones, Booth Is  Back in Town, and also adapted and translated lyrics for the newly-discovered Haydn opera, House of Fire ....

Ah, Die feuersbrunst, marionette opera extraordinaire!  That's actually a really interesting tidbit, given that it is a Hanswurst story which could easily serve as a Firesign blueprint. I wonder if, when all is said and done, if Haydn was responsible for "uh, Clem...". 🤔😜

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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12542 on: July 28, 2021, 07:07:23 AM »
Ah, Die feuersbrunst, marionette opera extraordinaire!  That's actually a really interesting tidbit, given that it is a Hanswurst story which could easily serve as a Firesign blueprint. I wonder if, when all is said and done, if Haydn was responsible for "uh, Clem...". 🤔😜

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Pablo, he broke the President!
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Offline Florestan

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12543 on: July 29, 2021, 05:15:28 AM »
Ah, Die feuersbrunst, marionette opera extraordinaire! 

Of which there are two recordings.



The Spering is complete with dialogues (2 CDs), the Koten has only the sung parts (1CD) and is included in the mammoth Brilliant Classics edition.

I listened to Spering only and remember liking it a lot. Marvelous music.
"Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent." - Victor Hugo

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12544 on: July 29, 2021, 09:27:42 AM »
Of which there are two recordings.



The Spering is complete with dialogues (2 CDs), the Koten has only the sung parts (1CD) and is included in the mammoth Brilliant Classics edition.

I listened to Spering only and remember liking it a lot. Marvelous music.

Yes, I have the Spering, very nicely played and sung. I have a hard time following singspiels, they talk too fast for me, to be honest, but I think it's interesting to hear (and follow along with) the production. I wouldn't object to that Koten production either.




I have a similar situation with 'Philemon & Baucis' (another singspiel) where the Huss is a full production but the Brunner is only the music. I listen to both whenever the whim overtakes me. :)

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Offline SonicMan46

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12545 on: August 18, 2021, 12:24:28 PM »
BOY - have not pulled out my Papa Haydn in a while, but am now spending the afternoon on the recordings shown below (not ALL of the Huss box) - the lira organizzata has always been a fascination - below from the listening thread, maybe to get a discussion of yet another side of the multi-faceted Joe Haydn!  :laugh:  Dave

Quote
Haydn, Joseph - Music Prince Esterhazy & King of Naples - listening to the first 2 CDs top row, i.e. Notturni, all eight works w/ Mozzafiato/L'Archibudelli and Ensemble Baroque de Limoges/Quatuor Mosaiques doing baryton octets, notturni, & lira organizzata works - the two lira copies from the booklet shown - checkout Gurn's Haydn Seek HERE for a more thorough description of this hybrid hurdy-gurdy/organ.  Now there are many other recordings of these lira works but virtually all use wind combinations as substitutes; Klocker does 6 of the Notturni w/ his group.  One of the best collections is the 6-disc w/ Manfred Huss and the Haydn Sinfonietta Wien.  Dave :)

     

   

Offline SonicMan46

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12546 on: August 18, 2021, 12:40:49 PM »
Lira Organizzata vs. Alternate Organs vs. Flute/Oboe Transcriptions for Haydn's works particularly for the King of Naples, Ferdinand IV - just looking at what else was in my collection of these unusual pieces - the Klocker recording of the Notturni (just 5 of 8 as he explains in his notes) includes the addition of two 'organs' (described as 'positive' and as 'barrel' - from the notes appear to be choir organs by Karl Schuke Organ Co., Berlin w/ the stops set to mimic the lira sound?) - I also have an MP3 DL of all 5 'Lyra Concerti' w/ Hugo Ruf on a 'lyra' - last pic shown from an LP cover - listening to the burned CD-R at the moment and really like the sound for a 1966 recording.  Not sure what new is out there for lira music -  8)  Dave

   
« Last Edit: August 18, 2021, 12:42:24 PM by SonicMan46 »

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12547 on: August 18, 2021, 01:07:58 PM »
Lira Organizzata vs. Alternate Organs vs. Flute/Oboe Transcriptions for Haydn's works particularly for the King of Naples, Ferdinand IV - just looking at what else was in my collection of these unusual pieces - the Klocker recording of the Notturni (just 5 of 8 as he explains in his notes) includes the addition of two 'organs' (described as 'positive' and as 'barrel' - from the notes appear to be choir organs by Karl Schuke Organ Co., Berlin w/ the stops set to mimic the lira sound?) - I also have an MP3 DL of all 5 'Lyra Concerti' w/ Hugo Ruf on a 'lyra' - last pic shown from an LP cover - listening to the burned CD-R at the moment and really like the sound for a 1966 recording.  Not sure what new is out there for lira music -  8)  Dave

   

Hey, Dave, well there isn't much new, Warchal on cpo didn't make your list, they are the London arrangements of all the notturnos, on modern instruments.


Note that the instrumentation between the original Naples versions and the London arrangements differ by more than just replacing the lira with the oboe and flute. Almost all the recordings available use the London version. But these are some nice recordings I don't see on your list:




The first 2 have a mix of Naples versions and London versions, both notturni and concerti. Period instruments. The Huss 'King of Naples box (you can get the original Koch/Schwann disks separately, but probably take you 10 years a a few hundred dollars by now) are period instruments, of course, but perhaps surprisingly they are also all London arrangements, no Naples ones.

The last one, the Solstice ensemble, is also PI, and also London. Only certain concerti and notturni were actually arranged by Haydn, and they are the ones on this disk, which I love that they put some thought into it.

What I like about the Klocker is that he uses the original Naples arrangements. It may be self-serving, since they use clarinet(s) while the London ones don't, but I don't care for his reasons, just glad he did it. I think the organ positif sounds great too. Otherwise, modern instruments, sad to say.

The Ruf also uses modern instruments, but he uses an allegedly real lira for that part and the concertos sound good.

 

Of course, can't forget L'Archibudelli, my favorite band. They play all the notturni on PI, but they are the London arrangements too. Certainly a heap of entertainment, but I would sure love it if someone would record all 5 concerti and all 8 notturni in their original Naples arrangements on period instruments or reproductions. I thought Limoges would do it, but so far they have left a lot undone.  :'(

8)
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Offline André

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12548 on: August 18, 2021, 02:40:12 PM »
The Nocturnes do sound quite different depending on the version (orchestration, PI or MI) chosen. The most beguiling and characterful I know is this one:



Originally released on L’Oiseau-Lyre LPs:


Offline SonicMan46

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12549 on: August 18, 2021, 02:46:11 PM »
Thanks Gurn & André - looks like I have a couple more considerations!  ;D  Dave

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12550 on: August 18, 2021, 05:10:56 PM »
The Nocturnes do sound quite different depending on the version (orchestration, PI or MI) chosen. The most beguiling and characterful I know is this one:



Originally released on L’Oiseau-Lyre LPs:



Absolutely, that is an excellent, the notturni have been treated well in the last few decades.  The only aspect not well served is definitely the Naples (original) versions. Hope that gets remediated soon!  😧

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« Last Edit: August 18, 2021, 05:12:33 PM by Gurn Blanston »
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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12551 on: August 18, 2021, 05:15:36 PM »
Thanks Gurn & André - looks like I have a couple more considerations!  ;D  Dave

I would hold out and leverage my buying power to force them to record a modern version that meets all my criteria. Well, maybe not...🤔

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Online Jo498

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12552 on: August 18, 2021, 10:48:18 PM »
With the ominous lira organizzata I only have the "deLirium" disc which is nice, but does not have enough of this odd instrument. 
Despite the organ positive not quite matching that sound, I find that the Klöcker/cpo disc has a far more interesting and fascitating sound than the later arrangements with flute/oboe that lose the special sound character.
It's probably my favorite disc of any divertimento-like stuff by Haydn, of course it helps that muscially the Notturni are comparably late works.
Haydn took no less than three movements from the lyra concerti and notturni and expanded them into symphony movements (#89,2+4 and #100,2)
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Offline SonicMan46

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12553 on: August 19, 2021, 06:00:09 AM »
Thanks Gurn & André - looks like I have a couple more considerations!  ;D  Dave

Gurn & André - of all of the images posted by me and you two, I own most except for the ones shown below - the first two interest me the most and are on Amazon USA as 'used' offers; cannot find the third choice there and the last one w/ mixed composers is outrageously priced.  If I had to add just one to my collection, Hacker would probably be my choice (own 3 of this other recordings) followed by Warchal - I'll look around the web today and at some download sites.  Of course, none of the two I want have lira(s) - SO, a 'new' version of the Nottuni + Concertos (guess 3 discs) using Haydn's original Napoli edition(s) w/ lira would be quite nice - now 'genie' for my next wish -  :laugh:  Dave

     

ADDENDUM: just found this 3-disc set on Apple Music; $30 MP3 DL on PrestoClassical, BUT is available for me to stream (along w/ the Warchal but not Hacker) on Spotify.  In the Thomas Indermùhle recording, oboe/flute are substituted for the lira, so not much different than the 6-disc Huss box? But it is now a Spotify playlist - will listen later.

« Last Edit: August 19, 2021, 06:25:22 AM by SonicMan46 »

Offline André

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12554 on: August 19, 2021, 07:13:20 AM »
Hi Dave ! Of those you show I only know the Hacker version (as well as the Archibudelli, Huss and Consortium Classicum ones - and the Delirium disc). It may be oldish, but I just love its bubbly, unpretentious, gemütlich deportment.

Offline SonicMan46

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12555 on: August 19, 2021, 08:06:18 AM »
Hi Dave ! Of those you show I only know the Hacker version (as well as the Archibudelli, Huss and Consortium Classicum ones - and the Delirium disc). It may be oldish, but I just love its bubbly, unpretentious, gemütlich deportment.

Thanks André - I just ordered a 'used' copy of Hacker for $6 (w/ some credit) from the Amazon MP - said condition 'very good'; arrives next week early, so will hope and see - I've enjoyed him a lot in other recordings in my collection.  Also now listening to the Thomas Indermühle recording on Spotify (to my den stereo) - quite delightful w/ the oboe/flute as lira substitutes - believe I may have enough options for these works!   ::) :laugh:  Dave

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12556 on: August 19, 2021, 11:47:47 AM »
Gurn & André - of all of the images posted by me and you two, I own most except for the ones shown below - the first two interest me the most and are on Amazon USA as 'used' offers; cannot find the third choice there and the last one w/ mixed composers is outrageously priced.  If I had to add just one to my collection, Hacker would probably be my choice (own 3 of this other recordings) followed by Warchal - I'll look around the web today and at some download sites.  Of course, none of the two I want have lira(s) - SO, a 'new' version of the Nottuni + Concertos (guess 3 discs) using Haydn's original Napoli edition(s) w/ lira would be quite nice - now 'genie' for my next wish -  :laugh:  Dave

     

ADDENDUM: just found this 3-disc set on Apple Music; $30 MP3 DL on PrestoClassical, BUT is available for me to stream (along w/ the Warchal but not Hacker) on Spotify.  In the Thomas Indermùhle recording, oboe/flute are substituted for the lira, so not much different than the 6-disc Huss box? But it is now a Spotify playlist - will listen later.



That one is new to me, Dave, but yes, it is clearly the London arrangements, don't know if it is period or modern though. That Huss has a whole lot of stuff other than the notturni and concerti though, so it isn't an actual comparison.

if I were choosing between those disks, I would take Hacker and Solstice Ensemble, not least because I already know Solstice is very nice indeed, and that Warchal is on modern instruments, which the London arrangements on modern instruments is not what I want from life, but hey, that's just me. :)

If you get that other (Indermühle) let me know how it works for you. Also, if it is on period instruments. If you are interested in more background material on these works, I'll post links to my essays about them. I did a lot of research at the time.

8)
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Offline SonicMan46

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12557 on: August 19, 2021, 12:45:23 PM »
That one is new to me, Dave, but yes, it is clearly the London arrangements, don't know if it is period or modern though. That Huss has a whole lot of stuff other than the notturni and concerti though, so it isn't an actual comparison.

if I were choosing between those disks, I would take Hacker and Solstice Ensemble, not least because I already know Solstice is very nice indeed, and that Warchal is on modern instruments, which the London arrangements on modern instruments is not what I want from life, but hey, that's just me. :)

If you get that other (Indermühle) let me know how it works for you. Also, if it is on period instruments. If you are interested in more background material on these works, I'll post links to my essays about them. I did a lot of research at the time.

8)

Hi Gurn - I listened to the entire Indermühle/Camerata Schultz recordings from Spotify this afternoon and enjoyed but sounds like MIs to me - I cannot find reviews/booklet notes/or other info on this production; the company is Camerata out of Japan HERE but the website is poorly organized, however, there is an 'info' email address, if they respond to questions?  Below is a pic from PrestoMusic offering a $30 MP3 DL only - the works include the 5 Lira Concerti & the 8 Notturni - my comparison to the Huss box was meant to state that discs 4-6 contained the same works w/ flute/oboe also used - not sure about the arrangements/editions?

As indicated to André in my previous post, I just bought a used copy of Hacker and expect to enjoy if the package arrives safely and the discs are 'intact' - the Solstice Ensemble is also on Spotify and I'll take a listen - on my den speakers, the Spotify streaming sounds quite good so I'll unlikely want to purchase DLs of the recordings available there (just more storage space to find if I make CD-Rs!  :laugh:)

As to your 'Haydn Seek' blog, I've re-read the ones on the lira and gave a link a few posts back - but I have it bookmarked and have read 'most' of your discussions there since its start - and having been a medical writer/editor for decades, I fully understand the effort needed that goes into putting these together (to keep me 'in practice' I do travelogues on the iPad Forums although those have pretty much stopped w/ this COVID isolation!).  Dave :)


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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12558 on: August 19, 2021, 12:59:37 PM »
Hi Gurn - I listened to the entire Indermühle/Camerata Schultz recordings from Spotify this afternoon and enjoyed but sounds like MIs to me - I cannot find reviews/booklet notes/or other info on this production; the company is Camerata out of Japan HERE but the website is poorly organized, however, there is an 'info' email address, if they respond to questions?  Below is a pic from PrestoMusic offering a $30 MP3 DL only - the works include the 5 Lira Concerti & the 8 Notturni - my comparison to the Huss box was meant to state that discs 4-6 contained the same works w/ flute/oboe also used - not sure about the arrangements/editions?

As indicated to André in my previous post, I just bought a used copy of Hacker and expect to enjoy if the package arrives safely and the discs are 'intact' - the Solstice Ensemble is also on Spotify and I'll take a listen - on my den speakers, the Spotify streaming sounds quite good so I'll unlikely want to purchase DLs of the recordings available there (just more storage space to find if I make CD-Rs!  :laugh:)

As to your 'Haydn Seek' blog, I've re-read the ones on the lira and gave a link a few posts back - but I have it bookmarked and have read 'most' of your discussions there since its start - and having been a medical writer/editor for decades, I fully understand the effort needed that goes into putting these together (to keep me 'in practice' I do travelogues on the iPad Forums although those have pretty much stopped w/ this COVID isolation!).  Dave :)



Ah, Camerata. They will never tell you, but I have several disks from them, all very good indeed, but all modern instruments. I expect this will be the same. I ended up researching the players at the time, since the label was not talking. They are Japanese, IIRC. Good sound quality and production values.

Actually, the post of yours I replied to, I thought was your first, so I didn't see the one before that. So you did cover more than I knew. Thanks for linking me. Anyway, my Hacker was used when I bought it and it was in perfect shape, I am confident yours will be too, or that you can get one. Seeing that LP that Andre posted makes me wonder if they ever came out with a L'oiseau Lyre CD of it before the Decca came along. I'd like to have that if they did. One of my fave labels. :)

8)
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Offline SonicMan46

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12559 on: August 19, 2021, 03:17:02 PM »
Ah, Camerata. They will never tell you, but I have several disks from them, all very good indeed, but all modern instruments. I expect this will be the same. I ended up researching the players at the time, since the label was not talking. They are Japanese, IIRC. Good sound quality and production values.

Actually, the post of yours I replied to, I thought was your first, so I didn't see the one before that. So you did cover more than I knew. Thanks for linking me. Anyway, my Hacker was used when I bought it and it was in perfect shape, I am confident yours will be too, or that you can get one. Seeing that LP that Andre posted makes me wonder if they ever came out with a L'oiseau Lyre CD of it before the Decca came along. I'd like to have that if they did. One of my fave labels. :)

8)

Gurn - you seem to be familiar w/ Camerata, and I feel the same, i.e. like pulling hen's teeth to get any valid information about that group; again, sounded like MIs to me but not always easy to tell, esp. if just strings (at least for my 'ears').  Well, lookin' forward to the Hacker - own 3 other recordings w/ him and love them all!  Be safe - Susan & I are just waiting to be told about when we'll be getting our booster shot - OH FUN!  Dave :)