Haydn's Haus

Started by Gurn Blanston, April 06, 2007, 04:15:04 PM

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amw

I know this is an unhelpful answer, but I don't know Op. 42 much at all, and my go-to version of op. 77 is the Salomon Quartet (HIP, and one of their most in-tune volumes), which doesn't include it.

Listening to excerpts of my three versions of Op. 42, which are Auryn, Leipzig and Párkányi (paired with Op. 33), my very preliminary ranking is Párkányi = Auryn > Leipzig. This is largely based on my assessment of the character they each bring to the music: Párkányis are a bit slower and more expressive (with a bit more vibrato), Leipzigers are a bit more mannered, somewhat more top-heavy (quasi HIP-influenced), and Auryns take a middle path with their more characteristic mid-heavy sound, a bit more portamento and a bit less dynamic tapering at the end of each phrase. The latter version may wind up being the most successful on an emotional level but I obviously didn't listen to the entire quartet to make sure.

It may come down to which version of Op. 77 you prefer. I actually somewhat prefer the Leipzigers to the Auryns in that pair of quartets, though I obviously like both and wouldn't want to be without either.

Madiel

#12721
Just from the first part of op.77/1 I already concluded I like the Leipziger more than the Auryn there... I really find the resonant Auryn recording gets in the way a lot. It didn't in op.1 for some reason.

But the thing I've liked the best? The Mosaiques. I own the Mosaiques in op.33 and want them in op.20, and to be honest I'm tempted to throw money at all their Haydn even for opuses I have alternatives for.

I will go try Parkanyi.

Edit: Nope, can't find their op.77 online. Only half of op.33.
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amw

#12722
Quote from: Madiel on May 03, 2022, 07:44:07 AM
Just from the first part of op.77/1 I already concluded I like the Leipziger more than the Auryn there... I really find the resonant Auryn recording gets in the way a lot. It didn't in op.1 for some reason.

But the thing I've liked the best? The Mosaiques. I own the Mosaiques in op.33 and want them in op.20, and to be honest I'm tempted to throw money at all their Haydn even for opuses I have alternatives for.

I will go try Parkanyi.

Edit: Nope, can't find their op.77 online. Only half of op.33.
The Párkányi did not record op. 77 as far as I know. (Praga Digitals has released one op. 77 that I know of, which is by the Pražák Quartet, and is also excellent—but, like the Auryns, quite resonant, although unlike the Auryns interpretively.) Their op. 42 is paired with op. 33 and is the one I was referring to. I'm not sure if it can be found online though.

Madiel

#12723
Oh sorry I'm writing the wrong numbers. The accurate bit is that I only found one half of op.33. And not the half with op.42 attached.

Putting 42 with 33 seems reasonably common, and sensible.

Praga Digitals is terribly inconsistent about what's available to hear online.

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amw

Quote from: Madiel on May 03, 2022, 08:41:42 AM
Oh sorry I'm writing the wrong numbers. The accurate bit is that I only found one half of op.33. And not the half with op.42 attached.
Ah. Understood.

Their style is fairly consistent across the two opuses at least, so if you like the other half of their op. 33, the half with op. 42 attached is similar.

Jo498

Quote from: Madiel on May 03, 2022, 08:41:42 AM
Oh sorry I'm writing the wrong numbers. The accurate bit is that I only found one half of op.33. And not the half with op.42 attached.

Putting 42 with 33 seems reasonably common, and sensible.
I can't help with these recordings (I only have the Lindsays live and Angeles in the box) but op.42 is a strange piece and apparently still a bit of a mystery. It is very short, I think shorter even than the shortest of op.33, supposedly quite easy to play, not very emotional despite d minor and apparently the single case of an isolated quartet. I think there was a hypothesis that Haydn had written (or planned to) 3 short quartets "for Spain" and the other two got lost or were never written at all. The other idea is that it was Hoffmeister who asked both Mozart (K 499) and Haydn (op.42) for a single quartet for him to publish. 
It's a nice piece but one probably needn't go out of one's way to get it.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Madiel

I've seen both of those ideas, though from what I've read in some booklets the Hoffmeister idea has reasonably good evidence for it.

It might be a minor work in some ways, but I'll be damned if I'm going to deliberately leave one tiny hole in my quartet collection!

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have some calculations to do about the amount of money I'm prepared to throw at some permutation of the Mosaiques recordings... if only I'd been paying more attention when the 10-CD box came out, but I just wasn't ready for it then.
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Jo498

Quote from: Madiel on May 04, 2022, 04:11:50 AM
Now, if you'll excuse me, I have some calculations to do about the amount of money I'm prepared to throw at some permutation of the Mosaiques recordings... if only I'd been paying more attention when the 10-CD box came out, but I just wasn't ready for it then.
Similar situation about 12 or 15 years ago. I think I had one or two volumes of the Mosaique when there appeared first two separate? and then the 10 disc box, so I passed. I eventually collected all of them but op.33 (which I don't think I need) and one half of op.64. The other half of op.64 usually goes for more than I want to pay. It's a pity they didn't record more than they did. But as for re-issues/used discs, the situation with their Mozart is "worse", expensive or impossible to find, I have only one disc of these, and the clarinet quintet (which is cheap for some reason, it's great, although I find the keyboard in the K 498 trio (source of my nick on that site here...) on the same disc too tinny.) It's a bit embarassing for what might be overall the most renowned HIP quartet of the last 30 years.

Of course you should get op.42 eventually, I just wouldn't make that one the arbiter for getting certain sets/discs you wouldn't want to get anyway.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Madiel

It's bizarre how much variation there is in listings, but... I think I've found a reliable copy of the 10-CD Mosaiques that is expensive but not insane. Though I've now realised this box was a complete repackaging - did all of the good liner notes survive the transition? Anyone have this version? I know people on the forum bought it... will post on another thread.

For the two separate 5-CD boxes (which is just the separate issues in slipcases), I've definitely found one of them from a seller I trust, and the other one there's a possible listing though I'm slightly more suspicious of its accuracy.

Of course, the volumes I most want are not in the same 5-CD box!

For the individual issues... well there's one person selling them all (including the one I don't need) for basically the same price as the 10-CD box. And then there are reasonably priced listings for some of them, and completely insane listings sometimes for the same ones... one half of op.64 seems to be particularly difficult.

Decisions. Need to sleep on it.
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Mandryka

Does anyone know anything about Mozart's influence on Haydn's music?
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Jo498

There are a bunch of movements one finds frequently quoted in this context, such as the first movement of K 428 -> op.64/6 and the finale of the abovementioned op.42 is sometimes connected with the finale of K 387 (although Haydn obviously had written contrapuntal finales in op.20 much earlier).
Others I have seen mentioned: allegretto slow movements in K 459 and op.54/1, slow movement of symphony #98 (as "Requiem for Mozart", not sure if or which specific Mozart piece is alluded to). The recurring slow intro Haydn uses in #103,i might also have been inspired by a similar technique in K 593,i although this would be one of the rare examples in which the Haydn example is more poetic/dramatic whereas the one by Mozart seems mostly a "technical" feat.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Mandryka

Thanks for that. Op 64 and op 54 are cycles I really don't know at all, so there's something for me to explore there.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Jo498

FWIW, I think that many of these could be rather superficial. The allegretto second movements of K 459 and op.54/1, somewhat "bittersweet" and, IIRC in 6/8 time are both fairly unique or at least rare "types" that it seems likely to me.
I now recall the claim than op.64/4,i might have a thematic allusion to K 387,i

I am usually rather very about all kinds of quotes and allusions etc. And merely thematic allusion are a rather weak influence/connection (the more structural things are usually to deep for me, unless explained in detail, but the return/integration of a slow intro like in K 593 and Haydn #103 would be a structural case that's easy to spot)
Mozart and Haydn were obviously spatiotemporally and personally so close that it's more plausible than in many other cases. Rosen in the "Classical style" has one section "Haydn after Mozart's death" that might have a few more similarities or possible influences.
op.64/6 trio ("folksy" with an exposed violin solo) and finale seem to be taken up by one of Mozart's most Haydnesque pieces, the last string quintet that also has a very Haydn-like andante variation movement and the first movement recalls op.50/3 (although this could again be a superficial similarity of common musical language, tropes and "thematic bricks"
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Mandryka

Op 64/1 seems really hard to pull off, does anyone know a good recorded one?
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Jo498

op.64/1 is rather un-Mozartean, IMO. The "problem" here is lack of contrast, partly because the first 3 movements often appear to be roughly the same tempo, the first two even start with similar/related motives (rising C major chord).
My favorite is probably the mysterious Caspar da Salo on PILZ or other cheapo labels (usually two single discs 1-3 and 4-6). They take the first movement rather leisurely but skip most repeats and take a more scherzando approach to the 3rd movement.
Amadeus might be worth a try, I didn't like their "Lark" because of the annoying tone or Brainin but overall I seem to recall they were pretty good in op.64.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Mandryka

#12735
Quote from: Jo498 on May 17, 2022, 12:13:38 AM
op.64/1 is rather un-Mozartean, IMO. The "problem" here is lack of contrast, partly because the first 3 movements often appear to be roughly the same tempo, the first two even start with similar/related motives (rising C major chord).
My favorite is probably the mysterious Caspar da Salo on PILZ or other cheapo labels (usually two single discs 1-3 and 4-6). They take the first movement rather leisurely but skip most repeats and take a more scherzando approach to the 3rd movement.
Amadeus might be worth a try, I didn't like their "Lark" because of the annoying tone or Brainin but overall I seem to recall they were pretty good in op.64.

I agree Caspar da Salo's well worth a listen, though really there's a bit to much champagne for me. I like it darker, less celebratory.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

#12736
That's not quite fair to Caspar da Salo, what I said above. I'm not sure that 64/1 is my sort of music at the the end of the day, but I will say this: London Haydn's intonation makes it a lot more interesting, as does Tatrai's phrasing. London Haydn is attractive because it's so serious - Tatrai also serious in its way. I'd like to hear London Haydn do 7 Words.

I'll go further, London Haydn is a real revelation and could possibly lead me to enjoying the music.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Madiel

I read "so serious" and my LHQ-disliking brain thinks "removed all the Haydnesque joy out of it".
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Jo498

I listened to the Mosaiques recording of op.64/1 last night and this one is more "serious". I liked this as well although I think I prefer the "cozy", relaxed Caspar da Salo.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Madiel

Quote from: Jo498 on May 17, 2022, 11:16:54 PM
I listened to the Mosaiques recording of op.64/1 last night and this one is more "serious". I liked this as well although I think I prefer the "cozy", relaxed Caspar da Salo.

It was actually the opening of the Mosaiques that I compared to the opening of the London Haydn Quartet (can't hear the whole of the latter online, only samples). I know which one felt like it still had some bounce.
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