Haydn's Haus

Started by Gurn Blanston, April 06, 2007, 04:15:04 PM

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Daverz

Quote from: Lisztianwagner on September 24, 2022, 10:20:53 AM
Although I don't listen to his music very often, Haydn remains a very special composer to me, since he was the first composer, along with Mozart, with whom I started appreciating classical music. I have Karajan's recording for the Paris and London Symphonies, but I would like to get a complete box set of Haydn's symphonies. Any suggestion or recordings you would recommend?

Dorati's is the "classic" set.

I'm very fond of the Fischer set, but the Londons in the box are not good.  I suggest supplementing with the Bernstein/Sony box.

I like the Dennis Russell Davies set, but Hurwitz dismisses it as dull, and the inclusion of applause is an annoyance.  I don't know the mixed Hogwood set.  The recent transfers of the Maerzendorfer set are not well done.

Other incomplete boxes I like are Brueggen (particularly the Londons) and Pinnock (Sturm und Drang). 

Jo498

#12781
The easiest to get and cheapest nowadays is probably Fischer/Brilliant (most of them originally Nimbus). Russell Davies is oop and download only, Dorati might still be findable used for a decent price. I have not heard any of the Russell Davies and less than half of Dorati but Fischer is overall pretty good, especially in the symphonies usually only covered in complete recordings. As already mentioned, the relative weakest are the late symphonies from Paris set onwards that are easily supplemented. Some of the early ones were also recorded at the beginning of his traversal and are not so great but that's not such a big deal and often also affects symphonies with quite a few good separate recordings, such as the "day times" 6-8 or "Farewell" 45.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Madiel

#12782
I have a bit of a mix and match. Hogwood's box for the early stuff and then Fischer for numbers 70-81, which is considered one of the best bits of his collection (basically, the later recording dates are the best, by his own admission).

Symphonies 76-81 are weirdly rare for such mature works, and so that was exactly where Fischer provided perfect coverage.

After that you're into symphonies that are much easier to get hold of. For the record I have Kuijken in both the Paris symphonies and 88-92 (different orchestras) and Colin Davis in the Londons.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Lisztianwagner

Thank you very much for the suggestions, those look all interesting options; considering all the aspects, the Fischer/Brilliant box set could be a good choice. If his recordings of the Paris Symphonies and the Londons weren't exceptionally good as it was pointed, I could supplement them with the Karajan set I've already got, his Haydn is very fine in my opinion.
"Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire." - Gustav Mahler

Jo498

I am not sure but I think the availability (even used) of the partial boxes by Fischer and Dorati (I think usually 4 disc boxes) is limited, same for the (often rather expensive) Hogwood boxes. There are good boxes of the "Sturm and Drang" (numbers around 40s, composed around 1770) but to close all the gaps could be rather tedious although both Naxos and the Goodman series on Hyperion have a lot of the symphonies on single discs.

Regular price for the Fischer box seems around 45 EUR which is not as cheap as it could be found in earlier times but it's o.k. for 33 discs
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Lisztianwagner

Quote from: George on September 25, 2022, 07:51:29 AM


If Haydn is a very special composer to you, I suggest looking around for this wonderful, yet OOP set: https://www.discogs.com/release/23477054-Haydn-Hogwood-Br%C3%BCggen-Dantone-Haydn-107-First-Complete-Cycle-On-Period-Instruments-Der-Vollst%C3%A4ndig

I appreciate the suggestion, but unfortunately this box set is unavailable or has a price out of reach.  :(
"Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire." - Gustav Mahler

Jo498

I doubt one is likely to get that combined box for a decent price. However, one might be more lucky with the Brüggen selection (Sturm & Drang, 82-105)

[asin]B00006YXOR[/asin]
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Wanderer

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 31, 2022, 08:49:16 AM
Probably an encore.

🤠🤓

E-mail just in. The Hob. VIIa:1 Violin Concerto is officially on the program! 😎


Dear friends of music!

We are very much looking forward to the concerts of the current 2022/2023 season at Musikverein Wien. We are pleased to herewith send you information about one of your next concerts – the concert of Kammerorchester Basel in October 2022.

At the concert on Thursday, October 6, 2022 - 7:30 p.m. at our Brahms-Saal there will be a change in program: In addition to the works already scheduled, the Konzert für Violine und Orchester in C-Dur will now be performed as well, together with violinist Dmitry Smirnov.

The program of the concert, entitled "Per il Luigi" and conducted by Giovanni Antonini, is as follows:

Joseph Haydn
Symphonie Es-Dur, Hob. I:36
Konzert für Violine und Orchester C-Dur, Hob. VIIa:1

— Pause —

Joseph Haydn
Symphonie B-Dur, Hob. I:16
Symphonie D-Dur, Hob. I:13



We are looking forward to welcoming you again soon to our house and remain with

Kind regards
Your Box Office

Gesellschaft der Musikfreunde in Wien

MusicTurner

#12788
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on September 25, 2022, 07:21:18 AM
Thank you very much for the suggestions, those look all interesting options; considering all the aspects, the Fischer/Brilliant box set could be a good choice. If his recordings of the Paris Symphonies and the Londons weren't exceptionally good as it was pointed, I could supplement them with the Karajan set I've already got, his Haydn is very fine in my opinion.

I can't imagine that you'll feel that you've gone wrong with acquiring the Fischer set, maybe supplemented with some other recordings later ... a lot of the set is really rewarding and excellent, and actually, the late symphonies aren't bad either, IMHO.

Some current prices are 45 Euros at JPC, and down to 33 Euros second-hand at Amazon.de (Medimops, but allegedly sent from Germany, though I'm not a user of Medimops). Here in Denmark, I sometimes see the set for down to 10 Euros, at second-hand sales.

(I've got the Dorati set too, plus selected recordings with, among others, Bernstein, Marriner, Beecham, Scherchen, Davis, Jones, Salonen, Reiner, Furtwängler, Busch, Paray, Casals, Barbirolli, Malko, Celibidache, etc.)

Florestan

Quote from: MusicTurner on September 25, 2022, 09:48:37 AM
I can't imagine that you'll feel that you've gone wrong with acquiring the Fischer set, maybe supplemented with some other recordings later ... a lot of the set is really rewarding and excellent, and actually, the late symphonies aren't bad either, IMHO.

+ 1 on all counts.

"Art is no excuse for boring people." - Jules Renard

LKB

 I may have plugged these sets already, but if so it's been a while.

Between the late '70's and early '80's, Colin Davis and the RCO recorded the London Symphonies for Philips. There are two volumes:

Haydn: The London Symphonies, Vol. 1 - Nos. 95, 96, 98, 102, 103, 104 https://a.co/d/1nOF2lG

Haydn: The London Symphonies, Vol. 2 - Nos. 93, 94, 97, 99, 100, 101 https://a.co/d/9IdiVXh

They're not HIP, but any Haydn fan who hasn't heard them is missing out.  ;)
Mit Flügeln, die ich mir errungen...

Spotted Horses

Quote from: vers la flamme on September 24, 2022, 02:49:22 PM
Dorati/Philharmonia Hungarica and Adam Fischer/Austro Hungarian Haydn Orchestra are both supposed to be quite good. Both Hungarians, go figure.

I had both and found both unlistenable, for different reasons. I currently have Dennis Russell Davies' set, which is lovely except for the nuisance of applause at the end of each symphony.

(I am a huge Dorati fan, but his set was recorded at breakneck pace and I get the feeling that they performances are underrehearsed (if rehearsed at all). The Fischer was recorded by Nimbus and I find the audio unacceptably reverberant.)

Jo498

I have heard only about 1/4 of the Dorati and all/most of the Fischer and I can't understand how they should be "unlistenable. They have flaws but not crippling ones. The Dorati has mostly pretty good sound for 1970 and while it was probably underrehearsed it often has a straightforward energy I find appealing. Probably still my favorite recording of #90, and some others are also very good.
A flaw for me are the often slowish menuets (but this is a feature of many recordings).

The sound is not so good on the earlier Fischer recordings but the later ones have sufficiently good sound for my taste and he is also quite good in some symphonies not so well represented in the discography, e.g. 60s, 74-80 etc.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Spotted Horses

Quote from: Jo498 on October 14, 2022, 09:27:29 AM
I have heard only about 1/4 of the Dorati and all/most of the Fischer and I can't understand how they should be "unlistenable. They have flaws but not crippling ones.

"Unlistenable" is a very personal judgement. Probably I'd manage to listen if there weren't much more attractive (to me) alternatives. The Davies set isn't my favorite, but is there for pieces for which I don't otherwise have.

By far my favorite Haydn is the Harnoncourt (especially Concertgebouw), along with Bruggen, Colin Davis, Mackerras (Telarc), Kuijkan. Karajan has an attractive energy but the string sound is too dominant and doesn't bring out the best in Haydn's use of the orchestra, IMO.

Brian



"Analyzing the final three decades of Haydn's career, this book uses the composer as a prism through which to examine urgent questions across the humanities.

"With this ambitious book, musicologist Nicholas Mathew [of UC Berkeley] uses the remarkable career of Joseph Haydn to consider a host of critical issues: how we tell the history of the Enlightenment and Romanticism; the relation of late-eighteenth-century culture to nascent capitalism and European colonialism; and how the modern market and modern aesthetic values were-and remain-inextricably entwined.

"The Haydn Economy weaves a vibrant material history of Haydn's late career, extending from the sphere of the ancient Esterhazy court to his frenetic years as an entrepreneur plying between London and Vienna, to his final decade as a venerable musical celebrity, where he witnessed the transformation of his legacy by a new generation of students and acolytes, Beethoven foremost among them. Ultimately, Mathew claims, Haydn's historical trajectory compels us to ask what we might usefully retain from the cultural and political practices of European modernity- whether we can extract and preserve its moral promise from its moral failures. And it demands that we confront the deep economic histories that continue to shape our beliefs about music, sound, and material culture."


calyptorhynchus

Quote from: Brian on October 16, 2022, 06:39:27 PM
Ultimately, Mathew claims, Haydn's historical trajectory compels us to ask what we might usefully retain from the cultural and political practices of European modernity- whether we can extract and preserve its moral promise from its moral failures. And it demands that we confront the deep economic histories that continue to shape our beliefs about music, sound, and material culture."
If it sounds good keep on listening.

Madiel

Quote from: Brian on October 16, 2022, 06:39:27 PM


"Analyzing the final three decades of Haydn's career, this book uses the composer as a prism through which to examine urgent questions across the humanities.

"With this ambitious book, musicologist Nicholas Mathew [of UC Berkeley] uses the remarkable career of Joseph Haydn to consider a host of critical issues: how we tell the history of the Enlightenment and Romanticism; the relation of late-eighteenth-century culture to nascent capitalism and European colonialism; and how the modern market and modern aesthetic values were-and remain-inextricably entwined.

"The Haydn Economy weaves a vibrant material history of Haydn's late career, extending from the sphere of the ancient Esterhazy court to his frenetic years as an entrepreneur plying between London and Vienna, to his final decade as a venerable musical celebrity, where he witnessed the transformation of his legacy by a new generation of students and acolytes, Beethoven foremost among them. Ultimately, Mathew claims, Haydn's historical trajectory compels us to ask what we might usefully retain from the cultural and political practices of European modernity- whether we can extract and preserve its moral promise from its moral failures. And it demands that we confront the deep economic histories that continue to shape our beliefs about music, sound, and material culture."

This could be interesting. Could.

I've always found it notable that Haydn's career sits right across this social change where musicians went from working for princes or the church to the world of public concerts. And Haydn was wildly popular with the new concert-going public. The figures for Paris, where Haydn's symphonies basically got played more often than everyone else's combined in some years, are pretty astounding.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Daverz

Quote from: Spotted Horses on October 14, 2022, 09:03:07 AM
I had both and found both unlistenable, for different reasons. I currently have Dennis Russell Davies' set, which is lovely except for the nuisance of applause at the end of each symphony.

(I am a huge Dorati fan, but his set was recorded at breakneck pace and I get the feeling that they performances are underrehearsed (if rehearsed at all). The Fischer was recorded by Nimbus and I find the audio unacceptably reverberant.)

As the Fischer series went on, Nimbus got better at recording in that hall.  Most of the recordings are quite good.  A set with poor recordings of the London's is somewhat crippled, I'll admit.

I think the balances on the Dorati set are sometimes off, but that may be the fault of the conductor.  I don't hear a problem with the basic sound quality.

They really should have edited out the applause on the DRD set.

Jo498

Quote from: Daverz on October 17, 2022, 02:08:31 PM
As the Fischer series went on, Nimbus got better at recording in that hall.  Most of the recordings are quite good.  A set with poor recordings of the London's is somewhat crippled, I'll admit.
It's a liability but think that with today's choices and prices that is not such a concern as many people will have another recording of e.g. the London and Paris sets anyway.
With current prices and availability, the Fischer is probably the only reasonable choice for someone wanting ONE box with physical discs. But one could of course argue that in the era of streaming one should get a mix of recordings and close gaps with downloads or streaming. This was quite different about 20 years ago when the Fischer box came out on Brilliant (after Nimbus had not finished the project). Even then I was happy to get the Fischer despite having collected around 70 Haydn symphonies piecemeal since the mid-1990s

Quote
I think the balances on the Dorati set are sometimes off, but that may be the fault of the conductor.  I don't hear a problem with the basic sound quality.
The sound is generally good. As they recorded >100 symphonies apparently in less than 4 years (and two different venues (all but 49-72 were done in the same church, though, despite the Oetker concert hall in Bielefeld where this first batch was done having a very good reputation, IIRC, and with a handful of sound engineers), there will be some run-throughs and the sound and balances don't seem to be consistent. E.g. brass and timpani are very present in 93 and 95 but quite subdued in others. The strings also sound fuller in some etc.
Of the big Haydn projects of the 70s (McCabe piano sonatas, Aeolian Quartets, I think Vienna Haydn Trio? for the trios, all from Telefunken or Decca, and some others, like Märzendorfer's symphony recordings) the Dorati symphony recordings were the only one to become a standard/classic.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Spotted Horses

#12799
Quote from: Jo498 on October 17, 2022, 11:48:19 PMThe sound is generally good. As they recorded >100 symphonies apparently in less than 4 years (and two different venues (all but 49-72 were done in the same church, though, despite the Oetker concert hall in Bielefeld where this first batch was done having a very good reputation, IIRC, and with a handful of sound engineers), there will be some run-throughs and the sound and balances don't seem to be consistent. E.g. brass and timpani are very present in 93 and 95 but quite subdued in others. The strings also sound fuller in some etc.
Of the big Haydn projects of the 70s (McCabe piano sonatas, Aeolian Quartets, I think Vienna Haydn Trio? for the trios, all from Telefunken or Decca, and some others, like Märzendorfer's symphony recordings) the Dorati symphony recordings were the only one to become a standard/classic.

When I last listened my impression was that the London Symphonies sounded dull, but the rest of the box sounded a lot better, which I thought might have been because the London symphonies were remastered first and the others done later when the art of remastering had improved.

My quibble was not with the sound, but with the performances, some of which struck me as often being read-throughs without much characterization, probably due to the rapid pace with which they were recorded.