Haydn's Haus

[Florestan]

MusicWeb International's Christopher Howell wrote two lengthy articles comparing Märzendorfer with Dorati (and a host of other performances) and the former emerges as the indisputable winner. In Howell's own words: The Haydn presented by Dorati is a very nice composer. In Maerzendorfer's hands, Haydn lives and breathes as a great composer

RTWT here: http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2018/Mar/Maerzendorfer_Haydn_article.pdf and http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2018/Sep/Maerzendorfer_Haydn_II.pdf

Personally I haven't heard either cycles so I can't comment.

[Jo498]

The problem is that this treatment by Musicweb is utterly ahistorical. Märzendorfer was distributed so badly (I don't know if the pressings were substandard as well) on LP and never until a few years ago on CD, that I had not even heard of it before the late 1990s and the internet.
Whatever the exact circumstances, Dorati's Haydn symphonies did very well for almost 30 years*, both on LP and CD, not only vs. Märzendorfer but also vs. many (partial) recordings of this music available in the 70s through 90s.

* I'd say that by the early 2000s with the cheap Fischer box, Naxos and far more partial Haydn symphonies (Hogwood, Goodman, Brüggen etc.) around, Dorati was mostly superseded.

[Karl Henning]

I may have plugged these sets already, but if so it's been a while.

Between the late '70's and early '80's, Colin Davis and the RCO recorded the London Symphonies for Philips. There are two volumes:

Haydn: The London Symphonies, Vol. 1 - Nos. 95, 96, 98, 102, 103, 104 https://a.co/d/1nOF2lG

Haydn: The London Symphonies, Vol. 2 - Nos. 93, 94, 97, 99, 100, 101 https://a.co/d/9IdiVXh

They're not HIP, but any Haydn fan who hasn't heard them is missing out. 

Love 'em.

[George]

I am completely happy with this set. Shame it dropped out of print.

[Karl Henning]

I am completely happy with this set. Shame it dropped out of print.

Nicely done!

[Gurn Blanston]

I am completely happy with this set. Shame it dropped out of print.

As you should,  good fellow.  It is everything you need and nothing you don't.  Might I have created 2 or 3 completely different cycles and been as happy? Easily,  Haydn's symphonic oeuvre is fully and generously represented in every phase of the currently modish recording genres, historical,  modern instrument and HIP/PI. However,  if that box was my entire Haydn symphonies collection,  I would be thrilled to death.

I don't do recommendations though. 😉

🤠😎

[Spotted Horses]

I am completely happy with this set. Shame it dropped out of print.

My reaction to this is just that I wish Bruggen would have had the opportunity (and inclination) to record the complete Haydn Symphonies. So much Hogwood, and Hogwood just strikes me as dull. (Of course, that is just my personal reaction.)

[Brian]

I need to relisten to the DRD box set, because my initial reaction was that DRD is emotionless in slow movements, which is a critique much more commonly made about Hogwood. Luckily both big boxes are in my possession. The Bruggen stuff is gold.

[Karl Henning]

I need to relisten to the DRD box set, because my initial reaction was that DRD is emotionless in slow movements, which is a critique much more commonly made about Hogwood. Luckily both big boxes are in my possession. The Bruggen stuff is gold.

FWIW, I don't recall any quarrel with the slow movements in the DRD set.

[Brian]

Just pulled out five DRD CDs to resample his cycle!

(24, 26, 30, 31, 49, 53, 59, 61, 70, 79-81, 101, 105)

[calyptorhynchus]

Can't believe that Decca let that big box go oop. 

[Spotted Horses]

Can't believe that Decca let that big box go oop. 

They are just waiting for demand to recover before then re-re-release it for the umpteenth time.

[Spenserian]

I've had the thought before that Decca is surely aware of the demand for the Doráti cycle too. I've seen bidding wars resulting in quite high prices on the local online marketplace. My bet is they're going to release a larger Doráti box and the Haydn cycle will be among the chief attractions.

If you want my unasked for but I hope not entirely unwelcome opinion on what to do in regards to Haydn symphonies, I think the best path for someone who has none yet is

• Buy the Fischer cycle (can be had very cheap used)
• Supplement the later symphonies with Bernstein's Paris symphonies (unbeatable) and London symphonies
• Supplement with the Szell recordings (boxset on secondary market, but better off with the big Szell box for remastered versions)
• For HIP: the Brüggen set and Harnoncourt paris symphonies
• Well-regarded by Haydnites, unique: Scherchen (DG)

At that point, it becomes less easy. There are obviously some worthy London sets, among them Davis/Concertgebouw and Jochum/LSO. There are a fairly lage number of cycles that were never finished. Goberman is often praised, and may be better in the earlier symphonies than Fischer. Oddly enough, there is no complete hip cycle. Hogwood is simply dull and has long been eclipsed, frankly. Brüggen's few are the best, I think. Roy Goodman did a substantial amount with the Hanover band, but they're out of print and only available digitally -- Hyperion doesn't even list their catalogue on streaming services, so you can't even sample. This is frustrating, because it is possibly the best overal HIP (partial) cycle. Two modern HIP versions, the one with the Heidelberger Sinfoniker on Hänssler (period brass and timpani only, modern strings and woodwinds) and the one under Giovanni Antonini (using two different orchestras, the Kammerorchester Basel and Il Giardino Armonico) on Alpha have not finished yet, but unlike the Hanover band, the chiefly important thing for them seems to be ridicilously fast tempi. Some find them unbearable for that reason, although they are interesting if you want to hear Haydn on steroids. Thomas Fey started the Hänssler cycle. He was a maverick who studied under Harnoncourt and, like Harnoncourt, was hit-or-miss but sometimes delivered genius and was always at least interesting. Sadly he was involved in an accident and couldn't finish the cycle.

And then I haven't even mentioned many individual recordings, the Russell Davies and Doráti cycles, the Rosbaud Haydn recordings... I think there are just too many symphonies to trust one man, one performance style, one orchestra, one label. I wish that there would be a symphony cycle with a truly major modern orchestra and major label acoustics, like Mozart got with Böhm/BPO and Levine/VPO. That would be a nice standard to have.

[j winter]

I've had the thought before that Decca is surely aware of the demand for the Doráti cycle too. I've seen bidding wars resulting in quite high prices on the local online marketplace. My bet is they're going to release a larger Doráti box and the Haydn cycle will be among the chief attractions.

If you want my unasked for but I hope not entirely unwelcome opinion on what to do in regards to Haydn symphonies, I think the best path for someone who has none yet is

• Buy the Fischer cycle (can be had very cheap used)
• Supplement the later symphonies with Bernstein's Paris symphonies (unbeatable) and London symphonies
• Supplement with the Szell recordings (boxset on secondary market, but better off with the big Szell box for remastered versions)
• For HIP: the Brüggen set and Harnoncourt paris symphonies
• Well-regarded by Haydnites, unique: Scherchen (DG)

At that point, it becomes less easy. There are obviously some worthy London sets, among them Davis/Concertgebouw and Jochum/LSO. There are a fairly lage number of cycles that were never finished. Goberman is often praised, and may be better in the earlier symphonies than Fischer. Oddly enough, there is no complete hip cycle. Hogwood is simply dull and has long been eclipsed, frankly. Brüggen's few are the best, I think. Roy Goodman did a substantial amount with the Hanover band, but they're out of print and only available digitally -- Hyperion doesn't even list their catalogue on streaming services, so you can't even sample. This is frustrating, because it is possibly the best overal HIP (partial) cycle. Two modern HIP versions, the one with the Heidelberger Sinfoniker on Hänssler (period brass and timpani only, modern strings and woodwinds) and the one under Giovanni Antonini (using two different orchestras, the Kammerorchester Basel and Il Giardino Armonico) on Alpha have not finished yet, but unlike the Hanover band, the chiefly important thing for them seems to be ridicilously fast tempi. Some find them unbearable for that reason, although they are interesting if you want to hear Haydn on steroids. Thomas Fey started the Hänssler cycle. He was a maverick who studied under Harnoncourt and, like Harnoncourt, was hit-or-miss but sometimes delivered genius and was always at least interesting. Sadly he was involved in an accident and couldn't finish the cycle.

And then I haven't even mentioned many individual recordings, the Russell Davies and Doráti cycles, the Rosbaud Haydn recordings... I think there are just too many symphonies to trust one man, one performance style, one orchestra, one label. I wish that there would be a symphony cycle with a truly major modern orchestra and major label acoustics, like Mozart got with Böhm/BPO and Levine/VPO. That would be a nice standard to have.

Excellent post!  There's a lot of very valuable advice in there, personally I agree with most of it.

I also think the Naxos symphonies set with various orchestras is a decent choice for someone trying to familiarize themselves with the works and wanting everything in one box, particularly if you can find it cheaply.  The performances certainly aren't going to compete with Szell, Bernstein etc., but they are uniformly quite good, on modern instruments, and fairly well recorded.  Worth considering IMO.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

They are just waiting for demand to recover before then re-re-release it for the umpteenth time.

I've noticed that they like to do that as I discovered when I went to purchase a used copy of a box of Wagner's operas which was supposedly a limited edition.  Found it used for a decent price and then shortly thereafter they reissued it.  Thankfully, I didn't pay a huge sum for it, but if I'm recalling correctly, I could have purchased it for a better price later on. 

Looks like the price for it is all over the place now:  https://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Great-Operas-Bayreuth-Festival/dp/B00159679S/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3785HH3PIIEFQ&keywords=wagner+the+great+operas+from+the+bayreuth&qid=1666279404&qu=eyJxc2MiOiIwLjkxIiwicXNhIjoiMC4wMCIsInFzcCI6IjAuMDAifQ%3D%3D&s=music&sprefix=wagner+the+great+operas+from+the+bayreuth%2Cpopular%2C155&sr=1-1

PD

[Jo498]

Spenserian had some good suggestions. A small correction: To my knowledge all/most of Goodman's on hyperion can be bought as discs in their "Helios" re-issue.
I'll offer below an alternative w/o the Fischer although I fully support getting it as a "base" because it is cheap, available and, I think, in a bunch of discographically elusive symphonies (e.g. 70-81, also some from the 50s-60s numbers) among the best opitions.

This is a mix of what I had before I got the Fischer box almost 20 years ago and single/separate recordings, some of which only appeared in these last decades. It will cost more, especially more time because one needs to find some stuff used (unless stuff can be had via download, I usually presuppose getting physical discs because that's what I do/did). "SD" means that the piece is in the "Sturm & Drang" boxes by Pinnock (DG Archiv) or Brüggen (oop).
Disclosure: I only know one of the volumes with Goodman of 1-25 (17-21) but I listed them anyway because they are availlable new as single discs, unlike Hogwood.
And apparently I have 27, 32, 37 and 62 only with Fischer (same goes for the early ones where I listed Goodman although I have Hogwood for some of them), so one would probably have to look for the Naxos to close the gaps. The same goes for the ones where I have only Hogwood in the list as these 3 disc boxes are ordered chronologically and not easy to find cheaply (and while I like them a bit better than Spenserian does, I would not recommend taking too much trouble to get any of them):

1-5 Goodman
6-8 "Daytimes" Harnoncourt/Teldec, or Freiburger Barockorchester (or several other good choices, such as Pinnock
9-12, 13-16, 17-21, 22-25 Goodman
22 "Philosopher", Orpheus, quite a few options on single discs
26 SD
27 -
28 Hogwood
29 Hogwood
30 Harnoncourt
31 Harnoncourt
32 -
33 Hogwood
34 Fey
35 SD
36 Hogwood
37 -
38 SD
39 SD, Solomons
40 Fey
41 SD
42 SD
43 SD
44 SD, Fricsay
45 SD
46 SD
47 SD
48 SD, Solomons/Sony (CBS), Fey
49 SD
50 SD, Fey
51 SD
52 SD
53 Harnoncourt, Fey
54 Hogwood, Fey
55 Hogwood
56 Hogwood, Fey
57 Hogwood, Fey
58 SD
59 SD, Harnoncourt
60 Harnoncourt, Rattle
61 Hogwood
62 -
63 Orpheus
64 Fey
65 SD
66 Hogwood
67 Hogwood
68 Harnoncourt
69 Harnoncourt, Fey
70-78 Goodman (70 Rattle, 73 Harnoncourt, but Fischer is mostly really good in 70-80)
79 Orpheus/DG
80 Orpheus, Freiburger/hm
81 Orpheus, Blum/Vanguard, Müller-Brühl/Naxos
82 - 87 "Paris", the best covered Haydn symphonies, I'd say, even better than some of the London. Take your pick
89 - 92 Rattle/Berlin or Kuijken [I don't know Kuijken here but his Paris and some of his London, so I'd dare suggesting this as an alternativ]
or piecemeal:
88 many options e.g. Furtwängler, Bernstein...
89 Glover/ASV, Wolf
90 Rattle/Birmingham
91 Jacobs/hm, Wolf
92 many options, again Jacobs or the historical Rosbaud
93-104 "London", take your pick

[JBS]

Reminder that if you're not looking for a complete set, the Marriner/ASMF is a good option for several of these.

Myself--I have the Fischer and DRD boxes, and the Hogwood/Bruggen/Dantone in the form of its separate components.
I have the full Goodman series via the Helios re-issues.
I have one 4 CD batch of the Dorati, but don't remember which symphonies it includes.

[Spenserian]

I do have the Naxos set, and the Marriner set, and the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra set, and the Pinnock set, and the Müllejans ones, and the Jacobs ones... And like them all a lot too! There's no shortage certainly I just found there's actually another complete cycle currently being recorded: Norichika Iimori with the Japan Century Symphony Orchestra.

[Jo498]

The perennial problem with many partial sets, e.g. the Marriner or also the "Sturm&Drang" set by Pinnock or the bunch recorded by Weil and boxed later, is that most of them cover the usual suspects, so the same gaps will remain.
I admittedly don't recommend to anyone taking trouble to get Haydn's #25 or #33. That's why a cheap complete recording is so convenient.

With Dorati I have 72-95 on CD in two of these 4-disc-boxes (I have all on LP but have never heard all and cannot play them now). The 72-83 box is a mixed bag and I think Fischer is better in 74-81 (a very good and underrated batch of pieces). But the 84-95 box is worth seeking out; as I said, Dorati's #90 is probably my favorite and 88, 89, 92, 93, 95 hold up very well against more recent recordings.

[Brian]

This discussion has been fantastic and helped organize my brain. It has also left me wishing I purchased the Goberman box set while it was still available. That was a mistake! Always buy the stuff you want 

I made a Google spreadsheet of partial cycles by Goberman, Orpheus, Harnoncourt, Bruggen, Scherchen, Weil, and Marriner. It shows which symphonies were recorded by which people. I included some OOP Harnoncourt Teldec albums which haven't been reissued in a box yet (as far as I can tell).

Symphonies which were NOT covered by Bruggen, Goberman, Harnoncourt, Marriner, Scherchen, Weil, or the Orpheus, so you have to spring for a single disc or complete box (or perhaps Hogwood or Goodman): 18, 25, 28-30, 33, 36, 54, 61-62, 66, 67, 70-72, 74-76. There is an excellent 67 from Philharmonia Baroque and Nicholas McGegan. Fey, Klumpp, and Antonini have covered some.

One more thought. I do not own this box set of "off-air" radio broadcasts of Haydn from 1950s England, but it includes Scherchen doing the very rare Symphony No. 29, plus recordings of 25, 28, and 30 along with some other less popular symphonies.