Haydn's Haus

[Gurn Blanston]

Jo may be right about being for specialists, I don't know about that, but I have had all of those for many years, the commercially available ones as well as the LP transfers. Yes, they are played with the same size band that Haydn wrote them for and premiered them with. Which is anywhere from 12-16 people. This has given them a wonderful transparency that lets you hear the music like it was a chamber piece. Which it was, actually. Obviously, comparison to larger groups' efforts will find them lacking in robustness, which bothers me not in the least, but YMMV.

If you already have the CBS releases and enjoy them, picking up that box is a no-brainer. Solomons is the true pioneer of HIP Haydn symphonies.

🤠

[Gurn Blanston]

crosspost from New Releases



Amazon.DE says March 29.

I missed the similar-looking Max Goberman Haydn box...have not heard anything about these recordings before.

Looking at this, it appears to contain even more than the LP transfers I have, which I believe total 12. Clearly I have to get this one myself. Can't wait!

🤠

[Jo498]

Jo may be right about being for specialists, I don't know about that, but I have had all of those for many years, the commercially available ones as well as the LP transfers. Yes, they are played with the same size band that Haydn wrote them for and premiered them with. Which is anywhere from 12-16 people. This has given them a wonderful transparency that lets you hear the music like it was a chamber piece. Which it was, actually. Obviously, comparison to larger groups' efforts will find them lacking in robustness, which bothers me not in the least, but YMMV.

If you already have the CBS releases and enjoy them, picking up that box is a no-brainer. Solomons is the true pioneer of HIP Haydn symphonies.

I agree, and despite my somewhat critical remarks above I am on record (probably findable on this very forum) for recommending the 2-3 reissue discs with Solomon that were available, incl. 39,45,48,49,59. Admittedly, I was not as convinced by the 3 disc box I got much later (42, 45, 46, 47, 51 & 65). No way I am paying 75 Euros (current Amazon price), maybe if it falls to ~40, otherwise I'll pass and remain happy with the ones I have.

[Gurn Blanston]

I agree, and despite my somewhat critical remarks above I am on record (probably findable on this very forum) for recommending the 2-3 reissue discs with Solomon that were available, incl. 39,45,48,49,59. Admittedly, I was not as convinced by the 3 disc box I got much later (42, 45, 46, 47, 51 & 65). No way I am paying 75 Euros (current Amazon price), maybe if it falls to ~40, otherwise I'll pass and remain happy with the ones I have.

Yes, 75 is a bit more Euros than I care to part with also. Maybe they'll show up on Presto and I will download the FLACs. I haven't bought a CD in 3 years now... 🧐🤠

[Gurn Blanston]

Looking at this, it appears to contain even more than the LP transfers I have, which I believe total 12. Clearly I have to get this one myself. Can't wait!

I just got an opportunity to check mine,

Commercial releases:
CBS 2 disk box, contents listed by Jo
CBS 3 disk box, ditto
CBS single disk, #45 & 48

9 disks from HaydnHouse that are LP transfers. I can list them if need be, but the main thing is the total. = 15 disks, so, 3 new ones.

It isn't the sort of info I carry in my head for quick access, but I recall during my writing about the works around 1768-74, there are different versions of the same symphony, differences ranging from more or fewer instruments to entirely different finales or introductions. If you look at the Hogwood TOC you can see that. But Hogwood doesn't play every version, nor does anyone else. However, cumulatively one can assemble the different ones. And IIRC, there are a couple of them in the Solomons cycle that don't appear elsewhere. So there's that...

🤠

[Jo498]

The 2 Solomons reissues in a cheap Sony series (26,48,49 and 39 45,59),  were among the first handful of discs in my "rediscovery" of Haydn symphonies in the late 1990s, so they do have a rather special place in my collection and my love of this music ("re" because I had of course encountered a bunch of more or less well known symphonies as a beginner almost 10 years earlier but for several years Haydn was not a main interest).

If more of Solomons' series had been available then as midprice single or double discs, I'd certainly have bought some of them, but even the 2 or 3 earlier CBS were long gone. So I eventually got the Pinnock Sturm&Drang box when it came out (I had had one single disc of that series before) and was set for some years as it was a demanding task to get all/most of Haydn's symphonies in decent recordings at all.
Around 2009 I'd probably have grabbed the new box even at 70 EUR but nowadays, I don't really feel I need any more Haydn symphonies, and I am not interested enough in the early ones (ca. discs 14-18) anyway.

[Gurn Blanston]

The 2 Solomons reissues in a cheap Sony series (26,48,49 and 39 45,59),  were among the first handful of discs in my "rediscovery" of Haydn symphonies in the late 1990s, so they do have a rather special place in my collection and my love of this music ("re" because I had of course encountered a bunch of more or less well known symphonies as a beginner almost 10 years earlier but for several years Haydn was not a main interest).

If more of Solomons' series had been available then as midprice single or double discs, I'd certainly have bought some of them, but even the 2 or 3 earlier CBS were long gone. So I eventually got the Pinnock Sturm&Drang box when it came out (I had had one single disc of that series before) and was set for some years as it was a demanding task to get all/most of Haydn's symphonies in decent recordings at all.
Around 2009 I'd probably have grabbed the new box even at 70 EUR but nowadays, I don't really feel I need any more Haydn symphonies, and I am not interested enough in the early ones (ca. discs 14-18) anyway.

Well that's the reasonable view I would expect most will take. With most composers it is the view I would take too. With a very few others, Haydn included, I take a broader view towards acquisition. 😊 I can't listen to a large number of performers' voices with every composer, but there's always room for more Haydn (or Mozart). 🤠

[Jo498]

I realized a few days ago that I had that Rosbaud SWF/SWR box with radio recordings of Haydn symphonies + concertos from the 1950s. I was mildly surprised that I owned this (so I am sure that I'll end up with the Solomons box as well, if it becomes cheap). I probably haven't listened to all of it yet. Now I listened to 90, 93 and 95. It's a mixed bag. The 90 has the worst sound and Rosbaud seems to use an edition without trumpets and drums and the horns are barely audible making this a mostly strings + woodwind piece which despite some nice woodwinds in the slow movement (that is also very slow) makes it a bit disappointing.
93 and 95 have better sound and I like them overall much better. Still dryish mono, so not the most colorful but surprising transparency for the sound and vintage, good tempi and shaping.

[calyptorhynchus]

What did Solomons mean by 107, 108? 105 and 106 I would understand.

[Jo498]

107 and 108 are also known as "A" and "B". They are 2 early symphonies (one might not even be by Haydn). 105 is the Sinfonia concertante, 106 a single movement AKA Ouverture to I pescatrici.

[Brian]

Got the Haydn2032 Vol. 20 newsletter email. The concerts are on 8 and 9 April in Vienna and Basel. Theme: "For English Gentlemen."

Kammerorchester Basel
Giovanni Antonini, Dirigent

Joseph Haydn:
Sinfonie Nr. 76 in Es-Dur
Sinfonie Nr. 77 in B-Dur
Pause
Johann Christian Bach:
Sinfonie in g-Moll op. 6 Nr. 6
Joseph Haydn:
Sinfonie Nr. 78 in c-Moll

And (if my very bad German isn't that bad), there's a preconcert interview between Antonini and Alfred Brendel?

[nico1616]

Got the Haydn2032 Vol. 20 newsletter email. The concerts are on 8 and 9 April in Vienna and Basel. Theme: "For English Gentlemen."

Kammerorchester Basel
Giovanni Antonini, Dirigent

Joseph Haydn:
Sinfonie Nr. 76 in Es-Dur
Sinfonie Nr. 77 in B-Dur
Pause
Johann Christian Bach:
Sinfonie in g-Moll op. 6 Nr. 6
Joseph Haydn:
Sinfonie Nr. 78 in c-Moll

Looks like a great program with some of the less recorded Haydn symphonies.
Volume 15 will be out on cd in April, so I guess this volume 20 will only appear in 2026...

[calyptorhynchus]

I see that discs of Haydn symphonies by the Hanover Band have recently been reissued. What do we think of their performances?

[SonicMan46]

Keyboard Concertos in Hoboken XVIII - well this morning I'm trying to sort out my 3 recordings (pics below) of these real vs. bogus works; Entremont is on modern piano, Brautigam on fortepiano (McNulty reproduction), and Schornsheim on organ, harpsichord or fortepiano.

In the listing below, the works on these recordings are in bold and the performers in italics; all perform Nos. 2, 3, 4 & 11 - at the bottom, Nos. 3, 4, & 11 are claimed to be 'genuine'; I suspect at least several others are Haydn compositions but apparently a goodly numbered are attributed to others; and I'm sure some 'early' Haydn concertos are lost (or yet to be discovered).

Not sure about more recent research or revisions into this Hoboken category?  Comments appreciated.  Dave

   

For Harpsichord, Organ or Piano - Source
Keyboard Concerto No. 1 in C, Hob. XVIII:1 (1756) - S
Keyboard Concerto No. 2 in D, Hob. XVIII:2 (1767) - B, E, S
Keyboard Concerto No. 3 in F, Hob. XVIII:3 (1765) - B, E, S
Keyboard Concerto No. 4 in G, Hob. XVIII:4 (1770) - B, E, S
Keyboard Concerto No. 5 in C, Hob. XVIII:5 (?authenticity, perhaps Wagenseil, 1763) - E, S
Keyboard and Violin Concerto No. 6 in F (Double Concerto), Hob. XVIII:6 (1766)
Keyboard Concerto No. 7 in F, Hob. XVIII:7 (attributed to Georg Christoph Wagenseil, 1766) - E
Keyboard Concerto No. 8 in C, Hob. XVIII:8 (perhaps attributed to Leopold Hofmann, 1766) - S
Keyboard Concerto No. 9 in G, Hob. XVIII:9 (uncertain authenticity, 1767) - E
Keyboard Concerto No. 10 in C, Hob. XVIII:10 (1771) - E, S
Keyboard Concerto No. 11 in D, Hob. XVIII:11 (1782) - B, E, S
Keyboard Concerto in E flat, Hob. XVIII:Es1 (doubtful authenticity)
Keyboard Concerto in F, Hob. XVIII:F1 (spurious authenticity, written by Georg Joseph Vogler)
Keyboard Concerto in F, Hob. XVIII:F2 (doubtful authenticity)
Keyboard Concerto in F, Hob. XVIII:F3 (doubtful authenticity, perhaps Johann Georg Lang)
Keyboard Concerto in G, Hob. XVIII:G1 (doubtful authenticity)
Concerto for Two Keyboards in G, Hob. XVIII:G2 (doubtful authenticity)

B = Brautigam; E = Entremont; S = Schornsheim

On the above list, where as noted Nos. 5, 7, 8, 9 are doubtful, only Nos. 3, 4, and 11 are considered confirmed as genuine.

Two works often identified and even published as piano concertos by Haydn, and commonly taught to younger piano students, are actually Divertimenti, grouped in Hob. XIV. Specifically, they are Hob. XIV:3 (the "Little Concerto" in C major), and Hob. XIV:4 (another "concerto" in C major). However, another work of similar technical difficulty that is also identified and published as a concerto is the Concerto in F, Hob. XVIII:F1.

[Jo498]

I see that discs of Haydn symphonies by the Hanover Band have recently been reissued. What do we think of their performances?

AFAIK all of the incomplete Goodman/Hanover Haydn on Hyperion had been available in their "Helios" series for quite a while. I have a handful of discs from them and the most contentious element is probably the often rather prominent harpsichord. If one is not bothered by this they are quite good. Warmer sound (and I think slightly bigger band) than Hogwood (or Solomons). Another caveat is that they (I think) omit timpani in some works were the parts are dubious.

The energy level varies, e.g. 82 is grand and boisterous but the following 83 and 84 seem rather small scale as if the energy had been lost with the trumpets and drums (that are correctly lacking in these 2).

[SonicMan46]

Looking at this, it appears to contain even more than the LP transfers I have, which I believe total 12. Clearly I have to get this one myself. Can't wait!

Now the above piques my interest!  Last few days, I've been listening to some Papa Joe Symphonies in my collection, yesterday to Kuijken in Nos. 82-92 (shown below; reviews attached) - today spending the morning w/ the Londons, again Kuijken vs. Harnoncourt (reviews also) - been happy with these performances for a while (and after a lot of culling - there are SO many London recordings!)

Now my 'main' Haydn boxes are Antonini (10 discs) & Fischer (33 discs of all!) - love the Antonini, but not as enthralled with Fischer. If I purchased the Solomons collection, I have all but a couple dozen (i.e. if I dump the Fischer box) - but just checked and seems to be 70 bucks or Euros at the moment - I assume the next presumably 10-disc Antonini box will be Vols. 11-20, but just a guess, anyway will not be a release soon to be seen - just some thoughts and enjoying the Londons w/ Kuijken and Harnoncourt!  Dave 

Antonini - Il Giardino/Basel (box of first 10 volumes)
 01, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 12, 15, 19, 22, 26, 28, 35, 39, 42, 43, 45, 46, 47, 49, 60, 63, 64, 65, 67, 70, 79, 80, 81

V.11 - 2, 24, 82, 87; V.12 - 61, 66, 69; V.13 - 31, 48, 59; V.14 - 33, 53, 54 - Newest releases!

Solomon's - L'Estro Armonico
1$, 2, 3$, 4$, 5, 6$, 10, 11, 15, 17, 18, 19$, 20, 26$, 27, 32, 33, 35$, 37, 38, 39$, 41, 42$, 43$, 44, 45$, 46$, 47$, 48, 49$, 50, 51, 52, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60$, 63$, 64$, 65$, 66, 67$, 68, 69, 107, 108 - $ Solomon repeated by Antonini

Missing from Antonini (10 Box Set) & Solomons: 13, 14, 16, 21, 23, 24, 25, 29, 30, 31, 34, 36, 40, 53, 61, 62, 71-78, 82-90, 91-106 - own Nos. 82-104 (Kuijken/Harnoncourt)

 

 

 

[Jo498]

As I wrote elsewhere I gave in and got the Solomons box for 60 EUR. Curiosity and the fear to miss out (because nowadays box vanish quickly so it's a gamble to hope for a lower price) won out in the end.

The obvious problem is that the gaps here make it difficult for those wanting to minimize duplication. I only dipped into the box (it only arrived saturday evening). It confirms what I knew from the 11 symphonies (of 49) I had had before that it is very good and a brief characterization for me is "similar to Hogwood but better". It's a pity that this truly pioneering HIP set (began in 1980) was abolished after only about 6 years. Similar to Hogwood because it uses small forces and (rather discrete) harpsichord only in the earlier pieces. There is even some overlap in the players but without having done A-B I found Solomons usually more spirited and intense.

It must also be admitted that the core of the Solomons is the ca. 20 symphonies ca. 1767-72 usually called "Sturm and Drang" and there are some very good recordings of them, e.g. Pinnock/Archiv. I have not heard them yet but Solomons might be further ahead of the competition in the 19 very early symphonies and/or in the 50s/60s pieces that are usually not included in Sturm&Drang (but are here).

Fischer is a mixed bag, as to be expected by a project drawn out over 15 years or so but as I probably wrote before, it has some high points, especially in regions not well covered by others, e.g. ca. 61-81. I think I listed the recording dates for Fischer further above, the last few discs recorded are really very good and an original take with some HIP influences.

[DavidW]

I have not heard them yet but Solomons might be further ahead of the competition in the 19 very early symphonies and/or in the 50s/60s pieces that are usually not included in Sturm&Drang (but are here).

But what about Harnoncourt?


For complete sets I don't think even Dorati is consistent over the whole thing let alone Fischer (but IMO I think both are good enough), the closest I've seen is Project 2032 so far (Antonini).

[DavidW]

@SonicMan46 I didn't know about that cheap bargain box set of v 1-10... ORDERED!  I have to admit I just don't like that Harnoncourt/RCO Londons.  They just sound too big and boring.

Dave, did you also have this set?

[SonicMan46]

@SonicMan46 I didn't know about that cheap bargain box set of v 1-10... ORDERED!  I have to admit I just don't like that Harnoncourt/RCO Londons.  They just sound too big and boring.

Dave, did you also have this set?

Hi Dave - well, still listening to Kuijken & Harnoncourt in the Londons and enjoying.  As to the PI set above, I was aware of it but never owned the box.  Dave