Author Topic: Haydn's Haus  (Read 1481906 times)

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snyprrr

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1500 on: December 13, 2009, 09:26:24 AM »
Just as an aside.



I haven't heard Op.17 before, and I'm just tickled with this cd. I mean, this is that "transition" music, that Late-High-Post-Baroque-Rococco-S&D-pre/post period that everyone's so, excuse me, hip on. This is Haydn sounding closer to the more obviously "baroque" sounding FX Richter (whose SQs on AlphaProductions are a nice gap filler (and were supposedly written @1757)). Another very early SQ by GF Abel (1769) is all I have to round out the picture, and, the only other cds available for this stuff are by Boccherini (Op.2 (CPO), Op.8 (Dynamic), Apponyi sampler (OOP)) and Gassmann (OOP). Early Mozart, too, I guess.

I admit I love all the tangy HIP sounds on this recording, and, for me, the "extreme" HIPness adds to my pleasure. I like hearing that 'nnrrrrrw' of the gut strings, and the glittering colors that come with every nuanced bow stroke (the detail in this recording is fresco-like). Am I a Philistine for just glorying in the sound? I think it's because of my acclimation to non-vibrato through Xenakis (which is the only other place I've heard "that" sound).

Ha, now I've come to that point I come to in every post, where I can keep it short and sweet with two paragraphs, or turn on the afterburners for two more pages, haha. ok, guys, here's my new found self-control at work! caio...

snyprrr

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1501 on: December 13, 2009, 09:39:43 AM »
I totally forgot what I was going to post about!

What pops out initially in Op.17 for me are the finales of No.4 and No.6 and the menuetto of No.5. The two finales have extraordinary sections of what I would call gypsy music.

Antoine Marchand

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1502 on: December 13, 2009, 06:16:22 PM »
... since with my other favorite composers (Mozart, Beethoven & Schubert)...

The inclusion of Schubert on that list was surprising to me. My personal favorites: Bach, Haydn & Schubert or Brahms (I can't decide).  :)

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1503 on: December 13, 2009, 06:22:09 PM »
The inclusion of Schubert on that list was surprising to me. My personal favorites: Bach, Haydn & Schubert or Brahms (I can't decide).  :)

Really? I have always been a big Schubert fan, he wrote many of his works for me personally, so how could I feel otherwise? :)

Brahms is in my Top 6 too, of late composers he, Dvorak and Tchaikovsky pretty well round out my list. As for Bach, well, he is OK...  ;D

8)

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Offline alkan

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1504 on: December 15, 2009, 02:55:23 AM »
I have just started listening to my newly-arrived box set of the Mosaiques in the late quartets (op 64, 76, 77).     This is the first time that I have listened to the Mosaiques and my listening is confined so far to Op 76/4  (the Sunrise), plus bits and pieces (mainly finales) of other Op76 works.    Here are the first impressions (whilst they are still fresh).

In general, for the Sunrise, it was an enjoyable experience.     Since I know this work quite well, it was very interesting to hear a new performance in a somewhat different style.     The sound was quite striking, the balance was excellent, with very expressive playing at an unhurried tempo.      However, there were a couple of things that struck me.       To me, the Mosaiques seem to be big fans of rubato and employ it at almost every possible occasion.   It is very common to hear a hesitation or slow start to many phrases.   This becomes very noticable in the minuet, but being a dance movement this is acceptable for me, although I found it a little overdone.   But in the final, the tempo and accents seemed to be all over the place, making the music hesitate, speed up, brake, continue, etc.    I found it quite disconcerting and the finale did not sound at all like the traditional version that I am used to (Orlando Quartet).    Instead of flowing naturally it seemed to be chopped into bits and pieces.

Did anyone else have the same impression or is it just me having trouble adapting to the MSQ's idiom ?     I understand that the players come from one of Harnoncourt's orchestra's and I got the feeling that they were trying a new approach mainly because it was new and different .... like Harnoncourt often does (with varying success ...).

Another impression that I got, which was a lot more favourable, was of the incredible modernity and originality of some of the movements.   Eg the finale of Op76/5.  It was difficult to imagine that I was listening to Haydn.     It was a revelation and sometimes quite startling .... absolutely fascinating.

Finally, I found that I really needed to listen in short periods; I could not listen to a full CD .... I needed a break between quartets.     The sound of the MSQ is extremely clear and clean, but without vibrato it is a little aggressive which I found tiring for prolonged listening (via headphones).       This is not a criticism ..... I am a HIP fan and I like a lean sound ..... I just needed a break before moving on ....

Looking forward to exploring the rest of the box .... especially the works I do not know.
The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.
Harlan Ellison (1934 - )

snyprrr

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1505 on: December 16, 2009, 09:13:57 AM »
I have just started listening to my newly-arrived box set of the Mosaiques in the late quartets (op 64, 76, 77).     This is the first time that I have listened to the Mosaiques and my listening is confined so far to Op 76/4  (the Sunrise), plus bits and pieces (mainly finales) of other Op76 works.    Here are the first impressions (whilst they are still fresh).

In general, for the Sunrise, it was an enjoyable experience.     Since I know this work quite well, it was very interesting to hear a new performance in a somewhat different style.     The sound was quite striking, the balance was excellent, with very expressive playing at an unhurried tempo.      However, there were a couple of things that struck me.       To me, the Mosaiques seem to be big fans of rubato and employ it at almost every possible occasion.   It is very common to hear a hesitation or slow start to many phrases.   This becomes very noticable in the minuet, but being a dance movement this is acceptable for me, although I found it a little overdone.   But in the final, the tempo and accents seemed to be all over the place, making the music hesitate, speed up, brake, continue, etc.    I found it quite disconcerting and the finale did not sound at all like the traditional version that I am used to (Orlando Quartet).    Instead of flowing naturally it seemed to be chopped into bits and pieces.

Did anyone else have the same impression or is it just me having trouble adapting to the MSQ's idiom ?     I understand that the players come from one of Harnoncourt's orchestra's and I got the feeling that they were trying a new approach mainly because it was new and different .... like Harnoncourt often does (with varying success ...).

Another impression that I got, which was a lot more favourable, was of the incredible modernity and originality of some of the movements.   Eg the finale of Op76/5.  It was difficult to imagine that I was listening to Haydn.     It was a revelation and sometimes quite startling .... absolutely fascinating.

Finally, I found that I really needed to listen in short periods; I could not listen to a full CD .... I needed a break between quartets.     The sound of the MSQ is extremely clear and clean, but without vibrato it is a little aggressive which I found tiring for prolonged listening (via headphones).       This is not a criticism ..... I am a HIP fan and I like a lean sound ..... I just needed a break before moving on ....

Looking forward to exploring the rest of the box .... especially the works I do not know.

Just yesterday I was at a "good" computer, and heard some of the Mosaiques Op.76.

I don't know if it was the computer sound, but the recording sounded just slightly fierce at high climaxes. I don't recall the Op.20 recording to have this problem, so maybe it was bad computer sound. That "orchestral" halo that I remember from Op.20 was here, too, but maybe not as pronounced (once again, can't totally tell on computer speakers).

The next thing I noticed was the ensemble sound, and ensemble playing. At the time, I was comparing with the Alberni, and the QM do have a much more adamant attack, such as I heard with the ABQ. Tempos were a little more relaxed than with the Alberni (who, by comparison, are quite fleet in Prestos), though, at surprising moments, the QM can turn the afterburners on.

76/4, the "Sunrise", seemed pretty equal betwixt the two versions, but, my now current favorite, 76/6, receives, in my view, a treatment slightly different than the rest of the QM's interpretations. I think this is the best 76/6 I've heard so far (Kodaly, QM, ABQ, Alberni, Amadeus, Auryn). The first two mvmts. are pretty low key, and most people play them similarly (though, the slow mvmt. can have a 2min. variation, either way); but, in the quicksilver Menuetto, the QM dig in like ticks, so one can hear the wood of their attack. They are by far the most exciting here (the ABQ are just as solid, but with a slight aggressiveness that the QM doesn't have/need). And, from the first notes of the Finale, the QM continue their digging in on the attack. Here, too, the ABQ are the only others who dig into their attack like this.

By comparison, the Alberni are very feminine indeed (no offence :D). Their attack is softer, but, if they do not dig like the others, they still emphasize other things. As with LvB interpretations, many groups do very well, and the only differences are differences of personal taste, and not a question of good or bad.

So, the big revelation for me was the QM's 76/6.

The QM's manly attack contined from the first three emphatic chords of 76/3, the "Emperor". The Alberni are much softer here, too, though they are by no means discounted.

Whilst on YouTube, I sampled a bunch of openings from 76/2. the "Fifths". What a riot it is to hear those first 30secs done by a variety of professional and amateur groups. One sees how Haydn's music does need some, mmm, TLC. One anonymous group was quite rough, whereas a clip by the Brentano was pretty perfect. The QM here are quite "woody", which is the first really "rustic" performance I've heard. Both the Auryn and the Alberni are much more the last word in refinement, meaning, their string sound. The QM impressed me mightily here, especially the way they handled the Major Key melody that comes right on the heels of the main theme (the sort of chirpy, whistle-y melody). I didn't hear the "witch's minuet", but, I can imagine the QM nail this too.

I had wanted to hear the QM's Op.76, and, I'm quite impressed. There are certain aspects of their "sound" that I'm not totally on board with (which would definitely require a better sound system than a computer), which is the same prob I had with their Op.20, but they certainly have reams to offer here in interpretive delights. Ha, they are certainly not as all-consumingly HIP as the LondonHaydnQuartet. I DID hear a squiggum of vibrato here and there, haha!

Uh, I just noticed I wrote another page long post. Sorry, guys! :-[ :P ::) ??? 8) :-*

Offline alkan

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1506 on: December 17, 2009, 03:00:50 AM »
As I continue my exploration of the QM's Op 76 set, I came across Op 76/6 for the first time ..... it is absolutely amazing.      So modern sounding and original .... I could hardly believe that it was written by Haydn.      The slow movement is mind-blowing .... you never know what harmony is coming next.    It is a constant string of surprises, one after another ...... wonderful.      And I think that the sharper, leaner and cleaner sound from the QM really adds to the unreal atmosphere.

I listened again to the Sunrise, and whilst I am starting to appreciate the QM's interpretation a bit more, I still find it to be the weakest of their Op76 set.     I would have liked a faster tempo and a springier first movement (after the sun has risen ...), and I still have my doubts about the tempo changes and rubato in the finale.     But it is aways instructive and interesting to her a different interpretation to the one you are familiar with, and the quality of the playing and the sound is absolutely first class.

Finally, the whirling gipsy dance finale of Op76/5 is tremendous  (starting to run out of superlatives ....), and the attack and precision of the QM, plus the HIP sound makes this incredibly exciting.

The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.
Harlan Ellison (1934 - )

Offline alkan

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1507 on: December 17, 2009, 03:03:56 AM »
I didn't hear the "witch's minuet", but, I can imagine the QM nail this too.

They do !!  :)
The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.
Harlan Ellison (1934 - )

snyprrr

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1508 on: December 17, 2009, 09:16:17 AM »
The QM began in the early '90s, right?

I remember their Astree covers. I've seen Op.20 available as two, old, cds, another, old, box (with painting of four wigs playing a quartet). and, finally, the new box with the person in country garb on the cover.

I notice Op.76 has a date of 2000 on Amazon. There is a 76 by itself, and then a box with 64/76/77. Was 76 really only released in 2000, with the new styled cover?

I have found Opp. 20, 33, & 51 (7 Last Words) in the "old" packaging. Does Op.76 really only come in the new styled covers?


Offline rubio

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1509 on: December 19, 2009, 08:45:59 AM »
Anybody here heard Münchinger's Haydn? This cheap release seems very interesting to me.

http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Symphonies-Nos-88-101/dp/B0002JZ2B6/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1261239514&sr=1-11

“One good thing about music, when it hits- you feel no pain” Bob Marley

Offline Todd

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1510 on: December 19, 2009, 08:51:49 AM »
I’ve now worked my way through 31 discs worth of the cycle, and I must say that I am most pleased with the purchase.  As with the Adam Fischer cycle, one gains an appreciation of Haydn’s mastery of the symphony.  He wrote literally dozens of extremely fine and great examples.  Once one gets into the 50s or so, it goes from solid work (or better) to solid work (or better).  Of course, by the time one gets to the Paris symphonies, there are more choices out there.  I can’t say that Davies supersedes the likes of Bernstein or Harnoncourt or even Marriner (whose Paris symphonies I adore), but they are quite good.  The Bear is most enjoyable, and the 86th is possibly the best I’ve heard.  Also very impressive are the Chunnel symphonies (those between the Paris and London symphonies).  The only issue so far was a case of the digital skips, appropriately during Il Distratto, though it was no big deal. 

Overall playing style is the same – generally brisk fast movements, somewhat leisurely slow movement, and tons of polish.  Sound varies a bit, but overall remains decidedly modern.

Now on to the London Symphonies.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1511 on: December 19, 2009, 09:00:25 AM »
Thanks for the update, Todd. I've read some other reviews, a couple of which mentioned some brutal editing in places, but which generally emulated your response. One thing I don't need is more Haydn symphonies, but I hope some others here might find them finally attractive enough to take the plunge. :)

8)

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DarkAngel

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1512 on: December 19, 2009, 11:48:13 AM »
Question about baryton trios...............are they string trios or keyboard trios? (or a mixture)



I still have my eye on this Brilliant boxset with many sales now on...........

Antoine Marchand

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1513 on: December 19, 2009, 12:13:21 PM »
Question about baryton trios...............are they string trios or keyboard trios? (or a mixture)



I still have my eye on this Brilliant boxset with many sales now on...........

They are string trios: "Divertimenti per il Pariton. Viola e Basso" were called by Haydn. They were composed for baryton, viola and cello, with three exceptions: trios numbers 89, 90 & 91, where the viola is replaced by the violin. :) 

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1514 on: December 19, 2009, 12:13:41 PM »
Question about baryton trios...............are they string trios or keyboard trios? (or a mixture)



I still have my eye on this Brilliant boxset with many sales now on...........

String. The Baryton is a modified Viola da Gamba. The other 2 instruments are viola and cello.

I got the Big Box on Monday, I was just sitting down to listen to those trios for the first time. All reports that I've read so far are very encouraging. :)


8)
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Antoine Marchand

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1515 on: December 19, 2009, 12:15:00 PM »
String. The Baryton is a modified Viola da Gamba. The other 2 instruments are viola and cello.

I got the Big Box on Monday, I was just sitting down to listen to those trios for the first time. All reports that I've read so far are very encouraging. :)


8)

I was faster, Gurn!  ;D

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1516 on: December 19, 2009, 12:18:32 PM »
I was faster, Gurn!  ;D

I have a sore finger... ;D

8)
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Offline SonicMan46

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1517 on: December 19, 2009, 01:00:46 PM »
I was faster, Gurn!  ;D

I was shoveling snow off the driveway -  >:(  We got 7" yesterday; a rarity in Piedmont, North Carolina!  Dave  :D

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1518 on: December 19, 2009, 01:05:17 PM »
I was shoveling snow off the driveway -  >:(  We got 7" yesterday; a rarity in Piedmont, North Carolina!  Dave  :D

The whole Eastern Seaboard looks like a train wreck. I was tracking a package coming out of your state and was delighted to see it arrive in Dallas in this morning's update. One more increment on the schedule and it wouldn't have made it for Christmas. :)

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DarkAngel

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1519 on: December 19, 2009, 03:50:15 PM »
What a lovely instrument that is, Dave. The keys are beautiful! Tortoiseshell you reckon? Adlam turns out to be more well-known for his instrument building than for his playing.

Thats the first thing I drooled over, tortoise finish black keys with radial relief carving along bottom of keys, sweet  :)

Too bad there is not a nice pastoral scence painted on the underside of the lid so player could gaze at it and ponder the mysteries of life........