Haydn's Haus

[mc ukrneal]

Let's not shift the ground, please.  Perhaps it will help you to understand if you consider the difference between historically informed period instrument performances of works written for the smallish orchestras of Vienna ca. 1800 without piano and 20th Century performances of the same works by orchestras with string sections inflated to twice or thrice the size.  With the balance of forces thrown off, the textures are different and inner voices are obscured or muddled, changing the character of the piece.  Compare the sound, texture, and transparency of a recording of a good HIPI ensemble like The Orchestra of the 18th Century playing a Haydn symphony with that of, say, the Berlin Philharmonic under von Karajan.  Regardless of which you might prefer, I think you will agree they are different--and it is that difference that we are discussing.

If you are having a hard time understanding the point we are making intellectually--that is, by applying your mind to imagining the situations we describe and considering how the concerns we describe apply and make sense--then forego the thought experiment and actually listen.  These days, thanks to the internet and streaming downloads from services like Naxos and Rhapsody and last.fm, you don't even have to own HIPI recordings to make such comparisons and to see why even contemporary modern instrument ensembles are scaling back their proportions in performing classical and baroque era works intended for smaller forces.

No need to get snarky. When you get down to the bottom line, I simply prefer the sound of a modern piano to most of the older variety pianos. There is no loss of texture, transparency or any of that as you claim (although different shades of sounds may be produced). That is purely your opinion, not fact. In reality, I am much less concerned about the type of instrument than the resulting performance (does it evoke something from me, make me think, etc.), so I am not sure why you are being so attacking in tone in your post. Not everyone likes (or agrees with) every aspect of HIP, and the fascination with period instruments makes little sense to me.  The intonation (and lack thereof) of those instruments irritates the bejeezers out of me.

Karajan and others do not lose texture because the larger orchestra is inherently worse or heavier. Go listen to Toscanini, who played with large forces, and the lightness and sparkle he exhibits are no less than those found in today's modern HIP ensembles. Just because an orchestra is big with modern instruments does not mean it will just lumber along.

If you prefer listening to smaller scale or period groups, I have nothing against that. But why I have to agree with you that this is a good thing (which I am not inclined to do) is beyond me. Certainly there is enough flexibility in the music for both to have their place?

[Gurn Blanston]

No need to get snarky. When you get down to the bottom line, I simply prefer the sound of a modern piano to most of the older variety pianos. There is no loss of texture, transparency or any of that as you claim (although different shades of sounds may be produced). That is purely your opinion, not fact. In reality, I am much less concerned about the type of instrument than the resulting performance (does it evoke something from me, make me think, etc.), so I am not sure why you are being so attacking in tone in your post. Not everyone likes (or agrees with) every aspect of HIP, and the fascination with period instruments makes little sense to me.  The intonation (and lack thereof) of those instruments irritates the bejeezers out of me.

Karajan and others do not lose texture because the larger orchestra is inherently worse or heavier. Go listen to Toscanini, who played with large forces, and the lightness and sparkle he exhibits are no less than those found in today's modern HIP ensembles. Just because an orchestra is big with modern instruments does mean it will just lumber along.

If you prefer listening to smaller scale or period groups, I have nothing against that. But why I have to agree with you that this is a good thing (which I am not inclined to do) is beyond me. Certainly there is enough flexibility in the music for both to have their place?

My guess would be because it is the sort of civility that we try to practice here (it keeps the riff-raff out) to not try to qualify our own choices by denigrating someone else's. IOW, we don't care if you agree with us that this is a good thing. Simply say you prefer this one and move on. Using only myself as an example, I earlier told someone (you?) this same thing about listening to what you like. I didn't add "although I think it sucks" to the end of it", which is what the point is of David's irritation.

There are 2 threads on this entire forum where I will take the time to explain this phenomenon, and this is one of them. There are no unpleasantnesses allowed here, so let's take this as an opportunity to learn and move along with it. We like to have you here, and also to have David make a rare visit, but let's all treat Haydn's Haus with the proper respect so as not to get the moderators' attention...

[mc ukrneal]

My guess would be because it is the sort of civility that we try to practice here (it keeps the riff-raff out) to not try to qualify our own choices by denigrating someone else's. IOW, we don't care if you agree with us that this is a good thing. Simply say you prefer this one and move on. Using only myself as an example, I earlier told someone (you?) this same thing about listening to what you like. I didn't add "although I think it sucks" to the end of it", which is what the point is of David's irritation.

There are 2 threads on this entire forum where I will take the time to explain this phenomenon, and this is one of them. There are no unpleasantnesses allowed here, so let's take this as an opportunity to learn and move along with it. We like to have you here, and also to have David make a rare visit, but let's all treat Haydn's Haus with the proper respect so as not to get the moderators' attention...

I whole-heartedly agree with you. 

[Gurn Blanston]

I whole-heartedly agree with you.

Thank you, sir. I knew you were a gentleman when you scraped the mud off your boots before entering the parlor.  0:)

[Opus106]

[L]et's all treat Haydn's Haus with the proper respect so as not to get the moderators' attention...

At least one mod. has to attend to it, you know. And to quote an oft-used phrase by certain moderator who shall remain unnamed: just sayin'...

[Gurn Blanston]

At least one mod. has to attend to it, you know. And to quote an oft-used phrase by certain moderator who shall remain unnamed: just sayin'...

  Well, it's because Haydn has always been so controversial, don't you know. A mod ( )  had to be assigned to this vicinity just to balance that aspect out of the equation. If he had been some bland, routine sort of composer, like Wagner, for example, it would have been no problem...

[mc ukrneal]

  Well, it's because Haydn has always been so controversial, don't you know. A mod ( )  had to be assigned to this vicinity just to balance that aspect out of the equation. If he had been some bland, routine sort of composer, like Wagner, for example, it would have been no problem...

Wagner? Who's that?!?! 

[Gurn Blanston]

Wagner? Who's that?!?! 

There you go, proves my point. Totally non-controversial due to virtually unknown.

[Antoine Marchand]

I have a great idea! We should have two separate Haydn's houses: HIP & non-HIP... wait a minute, wait a minute... it's a bad idea. 

[Gurn Blanston]

I have a great idea! We should have two separate Haydn's houses: HIP & non-HIP... wait a minute, wait a minute... it's a bad idea. 

I think those earthquakes must have you a bit.... rattled, my friend.

Speaking of which, hope all is still well with you and things are looking up a bit there. All best with that.

[Antoine Marchand]

I think those earthquakes must have you a bit.... rattled, my friend.

Speaking of which, hope all is still well with you and things are looking up a bit there. All best with that.

It's highly probably my friend, these are not been "ordinary" days.

Fortunately, my family and I are fine, but it's difficult to return normal with two or three aftershocks every day... But certainly our Haydn has been a great help.   

[Gurn Blanston]

OK, to continue with my irregular series on "Works by Year", which is based solely on my collection, thus may miss a work that you particularly treasure. Please don't take it personally, eventually I will have it all, and an addendum will be in order.

1768
Hob 01_026 Symphony in d   Starting to get heavily into Stürm und Dräng now!
Hob 01_039 Symphony in g
Hob 01_048 Symphony in C
Hob 01_049 Symphony in f

Hob 05_10 Trio in F for Strings  Probably more of these at this time; gaping hole for me!

Hob 10_07 Sonata in D for Baryton & Cello  I like these works better than the trios, nice!
Hob 10_09 Sonata in D for 2 Barytons & 2 Horns
Hob 10_10 Quintet in D for Baryton, Winds & Strings

Hob 11_049 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_050 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_051 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_052 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_053 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_054 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_055 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_056 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_057 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_058 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_059 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_060 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_061 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_062 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_063 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_064 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_065 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_066 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_067 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_068 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_069 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_070 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_071 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_072 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3

Hob 12_18 Divertimento in A for Baryton Solo
Hob 12_20 Divertimento in G for Baryton Solo
Hob 12_21 Divertimento in D for Baryton Solo
Hob 12_22 Divertimento in A for Baryton Solo
Hob 12_23 Divertimento in G for Baryton Solo

Hob 17a_02 Sonata in F for 2 Keyboards

Hob 22_02 Missa Sunt bona mixta malis (fragment) "Some good mixed with some bad". Candid, eh?

Hob 23a_01 Offertorium Non nobis, Domine
Hob 23c_04a Responsoria de Venerabili

Hob 28_03 Opera Lo Speziale (Der Apotheker)  A little bit missing, but nice anyway.

Hob deest Fragment in D for Keyboard

So, still quite a busy lad. I like the works from the late '60's. They knocked the competition on its ass. And he was experimenting a lot too, which makes for some unusual music on occasion.







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Listening to:
Prague & Miami Wind Quintets - Hob 02 Eb13 Divertimento in Eb for Wind Octet 2nd mvmt - Romance: Allegretto

[DavidRoss]

No need to get snarky. When you get down to the bottom line, I simply prefer the sound of a modern piano to most of the older variety pianos. There is no loss of texture, transparency or any of that as you claim (although different shades of sounds may be produced). That is purely your opinion, not fact. In reality, I am much less concerned about the type of instrument than the resulting performance (does it evoke something from me, make me think, etc.), so I am not sure why you are being so attacking in tone in your post. Not everyone likes (or agrees with) every aspect of HIP, and the fascination with period instruments makes little sense to me.  The intonation (and lack thereof) of those instruments irritates the bejeezers out of me.

Karajan and others do not lose texture because the larger orchestra is inherently worse or heavier. Go listen to Toscanini, who played with large forces, and the lightness and sparkle he exhibits are no less than those found in today's modern HIP ensembles. Just because an orchestra is big with modern instruments does not mean it will just lumber along.

If you prefer listening to smaller scale or period groups, I have nothing against that. But why I have to agree with you that this is a good thing (which I am not inclined to do) is beyond me. Certainly there is enough flexibility in the music for both to have their place?

Huh?  Snarky?  Attacking?  Demanding that you change your preferences to agree with mine?  I don't understand why you are reading this stuff into my posts.  It's not there.  Go back and look them over, please.

If you do, you will see that I have done none of the things you attack me for, but have only responded with kindness and generosity to your responses claiming that you do not understand my statements.  Perhaps I'm being foolish in presuming that these responses signal an interest in understanding, but that's how I've interpreted them and have tried to oblige by offering more information that may be helpful.

No one's being snarky or attacking you or insisting that you change your preferences or even that you learn to hear and understand the point I and others are making regarding balance of forces.  In fact, if you go back to my first post on the subject (here), the one to which you first responded by saying it confused you, you will see that I actually share your preference for the sound of modern pianos over the comparatively thin, tinny, non-resonant sound of classical period instruments. 

Finally, as to whether period instruments and ensemble sizes' effect on tone, texture, transparency, etc. is fact or opinion, that is something you can easily determine for yourself if you wish--just as you or anyone else can easily determine for himself whether the tone of a period pianoforte (or fortepiano) is thin or "tinny" in comparison to a modern instrument.  I've stated the case.  My part ends there, for I've no interest whatsoever in trying to compel understanding or agreement.

Happily, there is not only plenty of good music to go around, but also enough variety in performance styles that everybody should be able to find much that pleases them.  Good luck to you, and happy listening! 

[Gurn Blanston]

OK, now all parties to that issue have had their say, everyone understands each other on it, and when it arises again (which it will, of course) we will all not only begin but continue in a vein of total respect for each other's opinions. No one is here to be snarky or judgmental, and really, if you are I will insure that you aren't around long enough to bother anyone with it. What we want here is good, well-thought out input. Let's all try and benefit from that.



----------------
Listening to:
Consortium Classicum / Klöcker - Hob 02 Eb14 Divertimento in Eb for Wind Octet 3rd mvmt - Menuetto: Allegro

[mc ukrneal]

Huh?  Snarky?  Attacking?  Demanding that you change your preferences to agree with mine?  I don't understand why you are reading this stuff into my posts.  It's not there.  Go back and look them over, please.

If you do, you will see that I have done none of the things you attack me for, but have only responded with kindness and generosity to your responses claiming that you do not understand my statements.  Perhaps I'm being foolish in presuming that these responses signal an interest in understanding, but that's how I've interpreted them and have tried to oblige by offering more information that may be helpful.

No one's being snarky or attacking you or insisting that you change your preferences...

Happily, there is not only plenty of good music to go around, but also enough variety in performance styles that everybody should be able to find much that pleases them.  Good luck to you, and happy listening! 

Apologies for the misunderstanding. Sometimes written posts (and emails) are easily misinterpreted. 

[DavidRoss]

Apologies for the misunderstanding. Sometimes written posts (and emails) are easily misinterpreted.

Wow!  Thanks for the apology...a pretty rare thing around here that speaks highly of your character.

Given your advocacy for modern instrument recordings of these works, I wondered if you had any specific recommendations to offer re. recordings of Haydn's "piano" concertos.  On that "other" forum a couple of folks suggested Andsnes's record, and Gurn here said something about liking Ax before becoming a confirmed HIPster.  Any suggestions?

[mc ukrneal]

Wow!  Thanks for the apology...a pretty rare thing around here that speaks highly of your character.

Given your advocacy for modern instrument recordings of these works, I wondered if you had any specific recommendations to offer re. recordings of Haydn's "piano" concertos.  On that "other" forum a couple of folks suggested Andsnes's record, and Gurn here said something about liking Ax before becoming a confirmed HIPster.  Any suggestions?

That is something I am still exploring myself. I do like Pletnev (very enjoyable though I believe one of them has since been discovered to be someone else's; good value as it comes with some sonatas too).  I have Ax in the sonatas, where I unexpectedly liked him a lot, so would definitely consider his concertos (which I have not heard). I have heard the Andsnes (borrowed it for a listen) and liked it a lot as well, though not enough to really compare to Pletnev. It is on my wish list though, just waiting to get it at a good price (especially as I don't have #3). I have only read good things about it, and I think highly of Andsnes in general. So it seems there is not too bad a choice at all, always a good thing.   

[SonicMan46]

Well, the Haus is back in order at the moment -     

Last year Gurn & I had a brief exchange of posts over the 4-CD set shown below - Massimo Palumbo, the pianist - I even e-mailed the company to determined the packaging and posted - basically offered in four separate jewel boxes w/ the original notes, but little price reduction. 

I believe that Gurn wanted me to 'buy in' but I was reluctant; now, if the set had been re-packaged into a thin box w/ cardboard sleeves and half-priced, I likely would have purchased it!  The other important aspect of this set from what information was sent me is that the performances are on a 'modern' piano, so this would be a set for a non-Hipster, I guess; one brief review by David Hurwitz reprinted HERE - I'd still be curious if anyone may have heard these recordings?  Thanks - Dave 

Edit:  Just remembered that I own the 8-CD set of Carulli Guitar-Keyboard works w/ Palumbo on an original fortepiano - curious why he might not have considered that option for the Haydn recordings?  BTW- available from BRO for $24!

 

[Gurn Blanston]

I still don't know about that set, Dave, although I would be willing to bet that you would find it most acceptable. You could let me know....  0:)

I bought 2 disks today, by way of comparison. The first fills in a gaping hole in my collection. I have had volumes 1 & 3 of Staier's Haydn sonatas for a long time, but was never able to come across volume 2 for a sane price. Until today:



Then a recommendation from Antoine which fit into my ongoing survey of authentic keyboard Haydn, in this case, by Carole Cerasi:



So, a couple of complementary disks that should satisfy nicely. I am starting to run low on stray disks in this category...    

[Antoine Marchand]

Then a recommendation from Antoine which fit into my ongoing survey of authentic keyboard Haydn, in this case, by Carole Cerasi:

Coincidently my discs ordered from Abeille Musique arrived between the last Friday and today in 2 packages, although I have yet not listened to the Cerasi's disc.