Haydn's Haus

[snyprrr]

Wow, a whole thread on Haydn's 4s, and I've only just found it!

The Lindsays renditions of opp. 71 and 74 are what drew me to classical music in the first place, and these remain my favourite pieces, with honourable mentions to opp. 20, 42, 64, 76 and 77, plus all the ones I haven't mentioned.

These compositions define balanced expression in musical form. O my!

Rules: You are not allowed to Post until you've memorized and been tested on the first 41 Pages!

[chasmaniac]

I'll pass the test! Here are my answers:

yes
yes
no
no
sometimes
maybe
with the advent of porcine aviation

(Actually, I am having a look at the first 41 pages. Gonna take a while.)

[Gurn Blanston]

I'll pass the test! Here are my answers:

yes
yes
no
no
sometimes
maybe
with the advent of porcine aviation

(Actually, I am having a look at the first 41 pages. Gonna take a while.)

Oh Boy! A glutton for punishment!   

[chasmaniac]

Now let me play the examiner!

It is often said that people hear what they want to hear. When I listen to Haydn's string quartets I hear what I want: awareness without obsession, expression without indulgence, emotion without excess. Elements of the musical psyche are explored and recreated, not as isolated darknesses, but in measured relation to each other and to a wider world. Hard work is matched by pleasure, tension by release, aspiration by acceptance of a common and inevitable end. The theoretical achievement of a movement in sonata form is decorated with accessible grace and balanced by a thoughtful or elegaic adagio or andante. A dance movement recalls to our idyll the necessity of relation and its associated conventions. The finale, playful or furious but definitively final, identifies the collection as a subsisting whole, a completed lyrical unity. This unity might be conceived in turn as a narrative with beginning, middle and end, an engaged and educated conversation, a sermon or argument, or even as a jutting and salient object, an aural painting or sculpture. In any case, it lives through its own measured articulation, pursuing a dialectic of beauty that recognizes and utilises the disparate and opaque, but refuses to idolize or condemn. It finds a middle way.

Discuss, but without reference to verbal self-stimulation.

[Klaze]

Hi, Klaze, welcome aboard!

I have a couple of the HM disks, Op 33 & 42 in the re-release with the white front like Musique d'Abord (in fact, they are, although they still say Quintana on them) disks have, and an original of Op 77 on Quintana with that flowery cover. I don't have specifically the Op 64 though. In any case, this is the difference; the HM were recorded several years before the Arcana ones. Clearly the players were less accomplished, and I have read about significant numbers of intonation issues on some performances. I happen to like mine in both sets, since I like the more youthful joie de vivre of the earlier ones, despite the potential for less than perfection. For me, musicality trumps perfection unless it is so obvious as to be a distraction. And that is not the case here.

Thanks for the info and welcome, seems I have the same release, showing both Musique d'abord and Quintana.

Why not warn our new friend not to wave the red meat?!!

btw- I wasn't aware of an Op.64. Intriguing. But seriously,... how is the intonation?

I do recall some posts being rather unkind to this ensemble...oh well ;]
Anyway, I have no reference nor am I very familiar with listening to string quartets so I wouldn't know how the intonation is. Anyway, what I can say now is that, comparing it to some samples (couldnt find them on Amazon, but on jpc.de there are samples) from Op.64 on the Arcana label, the sound on the latter seems to a bit fuller/rounded off, closer, maybe a bit more "together". Also the performances on Quintana are slightly faster and sound snappier (maybe this joie de vivre Gurn Blanston was talking about) but the differences are not extreme to me.

[Gurn Blanston]

Thanks for the info and welcome, seems I have the same release, showing both Musique d'abord and Quintana.

I do recall some posts being rather unkind to this ensemble...oh well ;]
Anyway, I have no reference nor am I very familiar with listening to string quartets so I wouldn't know how the intonation is. Anyway, what I can say now is that, comparing it to some samples (couldnt find them on Amazon, but on jpc.de there are samples) from Op.64 on the Arcana label, the sound on the latter seems to a bit fuller/rounded off, closer, maybe a bit more "together". Also the performances on Quintana are slightly faster and sound snappier (maybe this joie de vivre Gurn Blanston was talking about) but the differences are not extreme to me.

Klaze,
Intonation problems are like this: you know, a violin isn't like a guitar; no frets. So when the fiddler puts his finger on the string and hits it with the bow, then if it isn't in exactly the right place, it will be sharp or flat. And you can hear that if you listen for it. It is the big no-no of violinists! So what you hear in even a wonderful performance for tempo and bowing and all that, but if the violinist has a little trouble with putting his fingers exactly the right spot, then it will be noticed. Anyway, some of those earlier version disks had that problem. Better now, though. For me, my ears are harder to hear that than they used to when I was younger. Maybe my hearing is worse, or maybe it just doesn't bother me as much as it used to!      Anyway, the important question you always ask yourself about a performance is "does this please me?". If it does, then that is the only opinion that matters. I am happy with both versions of both opuses.

[Klaze]

Klaze,
Intonation problems are like this: you know, a violin isn't like a guitar; no frets. So when the fiddler puts his finger on the string and hits it with the bow, then if it isn't in exactly the right place, it will be sharp or flat. And you can hear that if you listen for it. It is the big no-no of violinists! So what you hear in even a wonderful performance for tempo and bowing and all that, but if the violinist has a little trouble with putting his fingers exactly the right spot, then it will be noticed.

Right, didn't know intonation referred to that, thanks.

Anyway, the important question you always ask yourself about a performance is "does this please me?". If it does, then that is the only opinion that matters.

Wise words for sure ;]. And I'm quite sure I'm gonna enjoy exploring their recordings further

[snyprrr]

Now let me play the examiner!

It is often said that people hear what they want to hear. When I listen to Haydn's string quartets I hear what I want: awareness without obsession, expression without indulgence, emotion without excess. Elements of the musical psyche are explored and recreated, not as isolated darknesses, but in measured relation to each other and to a wider world. Hard work is matched by pleasure, tension by release, aspiration by acceptance of a common and inevitable end. The theoretical achievement of a movement in sonata form is decorated with accessible grace and balanced by a thoughtful or elegaic adagio or andante. A dance movement recalls to our idyll the necessity of relation and its associated conventions. The finale, playful or furious but definitively final, identifies the collection as a subsisting whole, a completed lyrical unity. This unity might be conceived in turn as a narrative with beginning, middle and end, an engaged and educated conversation, a sermon or argument, or even as a jutting and salient object, an aural painting or sculpture. In any case, it lives through its own measured articulation, pursuing a dialectic of beauty that recognizes and utilises the disparate and opaque, but refuses to idolize or condemn. It finds a middle way.

Discuss, but without reference to verbal self-stimulation.

'Sober' is the word that comes to mind. Yes, Haydn appears oh so professional,... the epitome of that word, in its best sense.

Honestly, I like your assessment, and have nothing to add!

[snyprrr]

Oh Boy! A glutton for punishment!   

haha

[snyprrr]

In anticipation of Page 42, I'm going to go ahead and get the ball rolling.

Franz Joseph Haydn Op.42
This is the only Haydn SQ I haven't even listened to since we started this thing. I used to have it on Naxos, but remember being disappointed that it wasn't the kind of 'd minor' that I had hoped.

Some have said that the Lindsays (the 'live', white covered ASV) are the way to go here.

What do you think of the music? Like I said, I don't recall it being anything particularly.

[Gurn Blanston]

Right, didn't know intonation referred to that, thanks.

Wise words for sure ;]. And I'm quite sure I'm gonna enjoy exploring their recordings further

No, neither did I for a long time. People would talk about it and I would say to myself; "intonation? WTF, he isn't chanting or anything, he's fiddling! ".    Definitions can be useful at times.

I know that people are always soliciting other people's opinions on recordings, but other than telling you that this one is an unmitigated disaster because of performance or sound issues, no one can tell you what your taste can. So go for it. I think you will enjoy (but that's only because I do!).

[SonicMan46]

Haydn Baryton Trios played on a trio of basset horns (i.e. a low register clarinet; Anton Stadler, Mozart's clarinetist, asked the Viennese maker Theodor Lotz to add lower keys to produce this instrument) - copies of this instrument by Andreas Schoni of Berne are used in this present recording; a pic shown previously of the 'basset horn' in this thread is shown below.

These transcriptions (in different keys) are wonderfully relaxing and beautiful - if you like (and own the BIG BOX) of the Baryton Trios, this disc is a MUST addition just for the variety - recommendation for us Haydn fans!   

Another 'new' arrival:  Haydn - Basset Horn Trios w/ Le Trio di Bassetto - these are 5 baryton trios of Haydn transcribed to 3 basset horns plus the pinging of glasses to simulate the plucking of the 'sympathetic strings' of the baryton  - fascinating recording and great listening! 

 

[chasmaniac]

What do you think of the music? Like I said, I don't recall it being anything particularly.

I've just listened to the Lindsays recording. There is no sturm und drang here, rather a good natured and inquisitive walk through the neighbourhood, noticing this, reacting to that, buying a pie in the shop then slowly enjoying it at the park bench next to the duck pond before hurrying home after realizing how late in the day it now is. Clearly not to everyone's taste! but I love it.

The recording is close and clear, the cello honks a bit, the violins are like silk, and no intonation problems I can hear.

I have the Kodalys too, I'll give them a listen and compare.

[chasmaniac]

The only really striking difference that I hear between Lindsays and Kodaly is the recorded sound, which is much wetter on the Naxos disc, and thus less to my taste as it happens. Oh, and the Kodaly cello doesn't honk.

[snyprrr]

I've just listened to the Lindsays recording. There is no sturm und drang here, rather a good natured and inquisitive walk through the neighbourhood, noticing this, reacting to that, buying a pie in the shop then slowly enjoying it at the park bench next to the duck pond before hurrying home after realizing how late in the day it now is. Clearly not to everyone's taste! but I love it.

The recording is close and clear, the cello honks a bit, the violins are like silk, and no intonation problems I can hear.

I have the Kodalys too, I'll give them a listen and compare.

Very nice description,... that's the way Op.64 makes me feel.

[Gurn Blanston]

Haydn Baryton Trios played on a trio of basset horns (i.e. a low register clarinet; Anton Stadler, Mozart's clarinetist, asked the Viennese maker Theodor Lotz to add lower keys to produce this instrument) - copies of this instrument by Andreas Schoni of Berne are used in this present recording; a pic shown previously of the 'basset horn' in this thread is shown below.

These transcriptions (in different keys) are wonderfully relaxing and beautiful - if you like (and own the BIG BOX) of the Baryton Trios, this disc is a MUST addition just for the variety - recommendation for us Haydn fans!   

Nice, Dave. I will be getting mine next week, looking forward to it. Someone in a PM this morning ventured that this is is a great time for Haydn/HIP/PI fans; we are blessed with an embarrassment of riches these days. That's good for me, at my age, embarrassment doesn't bother me a whit.   



----------------
Now playing:
Natalie Clein (Cello) / Julius Drake (Piano) - Kodály Op 08 Sonata for Solo Cello 3rd mvmt - Allegro molto vivace

[Herman]

Klaze,
Intonation problems are like this: you know, a violin isn't like a guitar; no frets. So when the fiddler puts his finger on the string and hits it with the bow, then if it isn't in exactly the right place, it will be sharp or flat. And you can hear that if you listen for it. It is the big no-no of violinists!

Actually, many violin soloists spice their performance with a little flat or sharp intonation for expressive intent. Being right on the dot all the time could get boring.

Obviously some violinists, particularly as they get older, go overboard in this.

There is a You Tube video of Salvatore Accardo performing the Schumann Piano Quartet Op. 47 with Menahem Pressler and Gautier Capuçon where Accardo is consistently overdoing this.

[Bogey]

Sonatas for Keyboard nos 1-9
McCabe (Piano)

Always enjoyed this set and have not visited in a while.   

[Gurn Blanston]

Sonatas for Keyboard nos 1-9
McCabe (Piano)

Always enjoyed this set and have not visited in a while.

Bill,
Yes, so have I. Nothing fancy in the way McCabe plays, which is just as it should be. Good tempos, and the best part; he doesn't make his modern piano do all the modern piano tricks, he lets it sound like a nice, plain keyboard. I have always felt like he is the equivalent of Ingrid Haebler in the Mozart sonatas. Which is a compliment!   



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Now playing: Costantino Mastroprimiano - Clementi WoO 03 Sonata in F 1st mvmt - Vivace

[Bogey]

Bill,
Yes, so have I. Nothing fancy in the way McCabe plays, which is just as it should be. Good tempos, and the best part; he doesn't make his modern piano do all the modern piano tricks, he lets it sound like a nice, plain keyboard. I have always felt like he is the equivalent of Ingrid Haebler in the Mozart sonatas. Which is a compliment!   



----------------
Now playing: Costantino Mastroprimiano - Clementi WoO 03 Sonata in F 1st mvmt - Vivace

His liner notes are interesting when lined up with your comment.  I quote:

The instrument on which the music is played would have varied considerably, from the clavichord of Haydn's early days, to the latest fortepianos, which he insisted on having in London in order to write his final set of three sonatas.  His contribution to the development of the keyboard was enormous, and I have no qualms about performing the works on a modern grand piano.  There are gains and losses in choosing either authentic or modern ones-it seems to me that a suitable modern piano enables the performer to reveal more completely the historical significance of the music, and its remarkable range of references both back to the Baroque and forward to the Romantics. 

Personally, I am glad folks vary and we have all the above interps.

Now, more Papa with lute:

Cassation in B Flat Hob III: 1
Cassation in C Hob III: 6
Quarteto in D Hob III: 8
Sonata in A 3 in F Hob IV: F2

Jakob Lindberg (Lute)
Ensemble:  Drottningholm Baroque Ensemble