Haydn's Haus

[jlaurson]

Well, after a short hiatus for mentally recharging, I have resumed my editing and updating of the earliest essays in the Haydn chronology series. Here is the link to Part 6 - 1757. I hope you enjoy it, and anything you want to add, or talk about, I am as interested in discussion as ever.

I used to go to a lot of operas, before the super-title times, and not even care that I didn't understand a lick.
Sometimes I knew the gist of what was going on, occasionally I fumbled in the little yellow libretto book I would have bought for a few quid along with the program (for another few quid).

Opera as a musical, not theatrical experience. But one really only gets 50% or less of the sum of the parts. There are still operas where I think not understanding the text is a benefit. limpid, ludicrous libretti, stupid stories, preposterous plots... but the great operas are worth being taken as a whole. I can't be moved to tears by the music of Don Giovanni alone. But I can be reduced to a sobbing piece of mess given the right production knowing the drama. Or laugh riotously during a Cosi. (Not that it's that funny a piece -- and for the longest time I would have included that among the "better not hear what's going on" operas.)

[Karl Henning]

Not sure "limpid" is the word you want there, Jens; but it doesn't mar your message.

[Gurn Blanston]

I used to go to a lot of operas, before the super-title times, and not even care that I didn't understand a lick.
Sometimes I knew the gist of what was going on, occasionally I fumbled in the little yellow libretto book I would have bought for a few quid along with the program (for another few quid).

Opera as a musical, not theatrical experience. But one really only gets 50% or less of the sum of the parts. There are still operas where I think not understanding the text is a benefit. limpid, ludicrous libretti, stupid stories, preposterous plots... but the great operas are worth being taken as a whole. I can't be moved to tears by the music of Don Giovanni alone. But I can be reduced to a sobbing piece of mess given the right production knowing the drama. Or laugh riotously during a Cosi. (Not that it's that funny a piece -- and for the longest time I would have included that among the "better not hear what's going on" operas.)

It's interesting to me that I'm not the only one in that boat. You read about operas and it seems like a given that every opera-goer is fluent in early Italian/German/French, whatever.  I try to prepare, when possible, for listening by reading (ideally) a translation of the libretto, or lacking that, a good synopsis of the plot by scene. After that, it seems to be sufficient for my purposes to know that at this point in the story, the father is berating the heroine for being a tramp and she's fixing to stab herself and sing a couple of songs as she lays on the floor bleeding out. I can always enjoy the musical aspect of that, and sometimes also enjoy the bleeding out part, depending on the heroine.   0:)

[Karl Henning]

Well, after a short hiatus for mentally recharging, I have resumed my editing and updating of the earliest essays in the Haydn chronology series. Here is the link to Part 6 - 1757. I hope you enjoy it, and anything you want to add, or talk about, I am as interested in discussion as ever.

Just an orthographic note. Divertimento á tre . . . in Italian, no accent on a there (unless there's some antic practice whereof I am unaware, which assuredly happeneth). If 'twere French, it would be an accent grave (à trois), not accent aigu.

I empathize completely with the confusion. The French accents I learnt and internalized when in jr hgh and high school.  And then it "de-internalized" over a decade of lack of use . . . and ever since, I need to double-check myself . . . .

[Gurn Blanston]

Just an orthographic note. Divertimento á tre . . . in Italian, no accent on a there (unless there's some antic practice whereof I am unaware, which assuredly happeneth). If 'twere French, it would be an accent grave (à trois), not accent aigu.

I empathize completely with the confusion. The French accents I learnt and internalized when in jr hgh and high school.  And then it "de-internalized" over a decade of lack of use . . . and ever since, I need to double-check myself . . . .

I just copied it off the liner notes, Karl, which purport to be copied from the original manuscripts. It may be that the usages were different then, or that Haydn was unaware of correct usage. As an example of that time, Mozart used to spell his name Amadé, Amadè and Amade (only once "Amadeus"). So one can't know what is right based on a model...



PS - Delighted that you re-read the update though!

[Karl Henning]

The first symphonies are here, the first symphonies are here!!! If you haven't listened to them, then on your first listen please tell me if I'm the only one who felt that they were recognizably Haydn. This seems to have been an arena in which his unique voice could be heard right from the start.

BTW, I think I am apt to have said before . . . but possibly not here in da Haus, much the same thing: here in the very first symphonies we already hear Haydn's ripe, assured musical intelligence and voice. Not the heights which he will later scale, but there is nothing tentative about these symphonies. (I'm remembering what I thought back when I first started my survey . . . sure, it is high time I go back and listen anew . . . .)

[Karl Henning]

I just copied it off the liner notes, Karl, which purport to be copied from the original manuscripts. It may be that the usages were different then, or that Haydn was unaware of correct usage. As an example of that time, Mozart used to spell his name Amadé, Amadè and Amade (only once "Amadeus"). So one can't know what is right based on a model...

Ho capito! The shadow of e'en such a possibility was lurking in a back synapse of the Henning brain, somewhere . . . .

[Karl Henning]

PS - Delighted that you re-read the update though!

A pleasure! You might add a [sic] somewhere, then, the better thine honour to guard.

[Gurn Blanston]

BTW, I think I am apt to have said before . . . but possibly not here in da Haus, much the same thing: here in the very first symphonies we already hear Haydn's ripe, assured musical intelligence and voice. Not the heights which he will later scale, but there is nothing tentative about these symphonies. (I'm remembering what I thought back when I first started my survey . . . sure, it is high time I go back and listen anew . . . .)

Well, that's just what I thought myself. My first early symphonies were the "Morning, Noon & Night" disk by Dorati, oh, so long ago! And the first time I spun it my thought was "this can't really be from 1761!". To me they just had that distinctive Haydn Sound.

[Gurn Blanston]

Ho capito! The shadow of e'en such a possibility was lurking in a back synapse of the Henning brain, somewhere . . . .

From everything I read from that time, spelling and grammar rules were so inconsistent as to be non-existent. Even being a specialist can't be of much help in some cases.

[Gurn Blanston]

A pleasure! You might add a [sic] somewhere, then, the better thine honour to guard.

  Oh, I don't mind provoking japery with my rube-ish ways. Hell, I barely have English down yet (beyond the more colorful phrases, of course).

[Karl Henning]

Well, that's just what I thought myself. My first early symphonies were the "Morning, Noon & Night" disk by Dorati, oh, so long ago! And the first time I spun it my thought was "this can't really be from 1761!". To me they just had that distinctive Haydn Sound.

Meseems this must be largely related to the fact that "Papa" nigh unto invented the genre.

The reason that it surprises us, is largely because once the genre was established, it became commonplace for young composers to try their hand at it early on, and early symphony/symphonies becomes synonymous with composer applying to learn his craft. That doesn't apply with Haydn, since (obviously) you don't invent a musical genre unless you already know pretty much what you're doing . . . .

[Karl Henning]

. . . Hell, I barely have English down yet . . . .

Texas may well be one of those places (as Professor Henry Higgins remarks) where English "entirely disappears" . . . so you may not bneed it to manage, down your way ; )

[Leon]

BTW, I think I am apt to have said before . . . but possibly not here in da Haus, much the same thing: here in the very first symphonies we already hear Haydn's ripe, assured musical intelligence and voice. Not the heights which he will later scale, but there is nothing tentative about these symphonies. (I'm remembering what I thought back when I first started my survey . . . sure, it is high time I go back and listen anew . . . .)

I love the early symphonies.  In fact, some (like 6, 7 & 8 ) are among my favorites of all the symphonies.

[Gurn Blanston]

I love the early symphonies.  In fact, some (like 6, 7 & 8 ) are among my favorites of all the symphonies.

Me too. In fact, the contents of survey of yesterday, 1757, resides on my MP3 player full time as I enjoy all that early music. I think that since Haydn was a late starter in composition compared to some of his peers that people are fooled by low numbers. He was a very mature 25 years old at the time he composed Symphony #1. So it isn't as though it was juvenilia! I agree with you about 6, 7, & 8 also. Lovely works!

[kishnevi]

I used to go to a lot of operas, before the super-title times, and not even care that I didn't understand a lick.
Sometimes I knew the gist of what was going on, occasionally I fumbled in the little yellow libretto book I would have bought for a few quid along with the program (for another few quid).

Opera as a musical, not theatrical experience. But one really only gets 50% or less of the sum of the parts. There are still operas where I think not understanding the text is a benefit. limpid, ludicrous libretti, stupid stories, preposterous plots... but the great operas are worth being taken as a whole. I can't be moved to tears by the music of Don Giovanni alone. But I can be reduced to a sobbing piece of mess given the right production knowing the drama. Or laugh riotously during a Cosi. (Not that it's that funny a piece -- and for the longest time I would have included that among the "better not hear what's going on" operas.)

I remember the parents of a college friend of mine recalling their strangest opera going experience to be a performance of Boris Godunov in Vienna, which was sung in German, which they did not speak.  This was, however, before the days of Regietheater, so nowadays it might not seem so bizarre.

Of course, I do share Gurn's problem--even when the performance is in English (original or translated) I only catch about half the words--libretto, subtitles, supertitles, etc, is still necessary.

[jlaurson]

I remember the parents of a college friend of mine recalling their strangest opera going experience to be a performance of Boris Godunov in Vienna, which was sung in German, which they did not speak.  This was, however, before the days of Regietheater, so nowadays it might not seem so bizarre.

Of course, I do share Gurn's problem--even when the performance is in English (original or translated) I only catch about half the words--libretto, subtitles, supertitles, etc, is still necessary.

True, it's very much an acquired ability to hear the text that is sung... and even then it only works if the singer has good diction, pronunciation, and enunciation. And knows the text. And if it is a native or near native language. And knows the libretto well enough.  And even then some sopranos make it impossible to understand text. Super-titles translated can do a lot, but have to be good. Most recent Tristan I was at (Oslo) had (English) subtitles that didn't make much sense at all.. and only two singers didn't make a dog's breakfast out of the German.

[Leon]

I recently raided my Wish List when the good folks at Amazon - who never fail to inform me that some item I've stashed away has increased or decreased by a few cents since I put in my box - alerted me that these two items' prices (especially the Kuijken) had dropped precipitously and which warranted immediate purchase:

[asin]B001TKK39S[/asin]

[asin]B000EBDCUA[/asin]

They offer different takes on Haydn, and are both very enjoyable in their own right.

Much good stuff here.

[Karl Henning]

If you don't mind the query, what price did you nab the Kuijken at?

Incidentally, that Lenny/NY Phil set looks sweet . . . and I'd never before wondered what his Haydn sounds like . . . fact is, now that (thanks to da Haus) I've become a fan of both The Creation and the Masses, I am susceptible to this box as I never was before.

[Gurn Blanston]

I recently raided my Wish List when the good folks at Amazon - who never fail to inform me that some item I've stashed away has increased or decreased by a few cents since I put in my box - alerted me that these two items' prices (especially the Kuijken) had dropped precipitously and which warranted immediate purchase:

[asin]B001TKK39S[/asin]

[asin]B000EBDCUA[/asin]

They offer different takes on Haydn, and are both very enjoyable in their own right.

Much good stuff here.

Well, timing is everything, Philippe; I note that the current is $107, up from the $85 that it used to sell for. I have the individual disks of this set on DHM, I would have bought the box but the price has always been steep. I am very fond indeed of these recordings. There are many good London's, but these are solid throughout the cycle.

I like Bernstein/VPO in some symphonies, but haven't really spent any time with the NYPO disks. As a personal preference, I don't listen to modern instrument Haydn, although I certainly don't discourage others, and I always like Bernstein anyway. I still, after 50 years, owe him a debt for making me love music.