Haydn's Haus

[Karl Henning]

'Sunrise Over Hoboken':  I love that.

[Gurn Blanston]

'Sunrise Over Hoboken':  I love that.

Thanks, I love it when someone finally gets it.

[Jo498]

thanks, I have a partial Hoboken (included in a paperback book which apparently contains basically the New Grove entry on Haydn by Larsen and Feder (in German translation), but this includes only some of the dubious works (and no incipits of course). Problem is that the info on this CD is so sparse that I hesitate to believe even the key signature... Some day I should listen to all of the Huss amazon soundbites, it might even be in there. But as you say, it's more likely it will not be as it is very probably a dubious piece. Overall the disc is quite nice in any case, modern instruments, but beautifully played. But I find it really outrageous that the booklet info is so sparse. I even have the suspicion that the booklet author did this on purpose to obscure the fact that 80% of the music might not be composed by Haydn... The Linos ensemble has another nice disc with a bunch of woodwind partitas most of which may not be Haydn either but they have Hob. numbers (so one can look them and the authenticity status up).

[Gurn Blanston]

thanks, I have a partial Hoboken (included in a paperback book which apparently contains basically the New Grove entry on Haydn by Larsen and Feder (in German translation), but this includes only some of the dubious works (and no incipits of course). Problem is that the info on this CD is so sparse that I hesitate to believe even the key signature... Some day I should listen to all of the Huss amazon soundbites, it might even be in there. But as you say, it's more likely it will not be as it is very probably a dubious piece. Overall the disc is quite nice in any case, modern instruments, but beautifully played. But I find it really outrageous that the booklet info is so sparse. I even have the suspicion that the booklet author did this on purpose to obscure the fact that 80% of the music might not be composed by Haydn... The Linos ensemble has another nice disc with a bunch of woodwind partitas most of which may not be Haydn either but they have Hob. numbers (so one can look them and the authenticity status up).

No prob. Yes, that actually IS the New Grove entry on Haydn, it was big enough they could also publish it separately. It only took me 7 or 8 years to get comfortable using it...

No, I can tell you, Huss has nothing from Hob 2 in Bb or A. This is not to say that it isn't nice music though. I find it ironic to see that the underhanded practices seen with music publishers back in 1765 are still being continued today by CD publishers. And they justify it by saying that it was originally published as Haydn! Much like the flute and oboe concertos which everyone in the world knows were not by Haydn, and yet are even today being published with "HAYDN" in big letters on the front cover, but when you read the notes, sometimes there will be an asterisk and in 3 point text at the bottom of the last page it will say "Once attributed to Haydn, now believed to be Hoffmeister" or whoever.

Music may have changed over the 2+ centuries since Haydn, but the "ethics" of music publishers haven't changed a bit.

[Jo498]

Actually, maybe I was not clear: The identification of these other pieces as Hob. II A 4 and B flat 2 is in fact given in the booklet, although the dubious authorship is only hinted at. Only the cassatio is not identified and no clue given that it's more probably not by Haydn than vice versa.
My suspicion is now that it could be Hob.II: F2 because it fits the instrumentation (Oboe, Bassoon, 2 Horns, Violin, Viola, Bass). But the only info in the book I mentioned above is that there is an edition (of the sheet music I guess) "Leipzig 1970". Only a question mark for date of composition, no info regarding probability of authorship. (Whereas for B flat 2 it is mentioned that it could have been written by Joh. Chr. Bach or Abel.)

They do not have to print PROBABLY NOT BY HAYDN in capital letters on the CD cover. But it should be told in the booklet and maybe in fine print on the backcover...

[Gurn Blanston]

Actually, maybe I was not clear: The identification of these other pieces as Hob. II A 4 and B flat 2 is in fact given in the booklet, although the dubious authorship is only hinted at. Only the cassatio is not identified and no clue given that it's more probably not by Haydn than vice versa.
My suspicion is now that it could be Hob.II: F2 because it fits the instrumentation (Oboe, Bassoon, 2 Horns, Violin, Viola, Bass). But the only info in the book I mentioned above is that there is an edition (of the sheet music I guess) "Leipzig 1970". Only a question mark for date of composition, no info regarding probability of authorship. (Whereas for B flat 2 it is mentioned that it could have been written by Joh. Chr. Bach or Abel.)

They do not have to print PROBABLY NOT BY HAYDN in capital letters on the CD cover. But it should be told in the booklet and maybe in fine print on the backcover...

So the implication is that it is Hob II:deest then, yes? I mean, they imply it is attributed to Haydn at least, but don't give any Hob #, so properly this is what it would be called. If it actually F2, they would surely have put it. The problem with going by instrumentation is that that particular one was one of the most common in the era. Haydn has a set of 3 of them from 1755, 2 in G and one in F, for example. Which is not to say he didn't write even more of them. Leipzig is CF Peters, IIRC, you might find info from them with a little email...  

I'll check Klocker's 4 disk box when I get home tonight and see if he has any deest works with that instrumentation. They might be the same piece and that will give some additional info. Or if you can find it online and listen to a sample, then you would know.

[Jo498]

It might have been just sloppiness of the booklet writer/editor. It says something about a copy of the piece in a Berlin library but of course this does not help much. If it is Hob. II: F2 than it is not a "deest", although among the dubious pieces.

From the backcover of the Kloecker I do not think it is included there because I cannot find it listed and it is not wind only but with at least one violin and viola (+ bass but a string bass is used in some editions of wind only music). F7 is winds only, I think.

it's really puzzling because that recording is from the 1990s, so not old and I have other discs containing "deest" pieces where the dubious authorship is at least mentioned, although many authors argue charitably pro Haydn's authorship. As long as there is no positive evidence for a different author it also seems o.k. to use Haydn's name as long as doubts are indicated somehow.

[Gurn Blanston]

It might have been just sloppiness of the booklet writer/editor. It says something about a copy of the piece in a Berlin library but of course this does not help much. If it is Hob. II: F2 than it is not a "deest", although among the dubious pieces.

You are too kind; I don't think it is sloppiness, if it had a number they would have certainly provided it. There are actually several authenticated pieces which began life as deest, and still don't have a Hoboken number; him being dead has slowed that process down, and it seems no one else wants to take responsibility for it.

From the backcover of the Kloecker I do not think it is included there because I cannot find it listed and it is not wind only but with at least one violin and viola (+ bass but a string bass is used in some editions of wind only music). F7 is winds only, I think.

it's really puzzling because that recording is from the 1990s, so not old and I have other discs containing "deest" pieces where the dubious authorship is at least mentioned, although many authors argue charitably pro Haydn's authorship. As long as there is no positive evidence for a different author it also seems o.k. to use Haydn's name as long as doubts are indicated somehow.

Yes, you are right, I forgot the Klöcker was winds only. It is very authentic to use a violone ad libitum in wind only pieces. But that wouldn't change the 'winds only' aspect of the music. Just like using a bassoon in the basso continuo without even mentioning it in the score. Haydn took it for granted, in fact.

I am very much in favor of those works being recorded, I like the genre and think it is underrepresented. I'm just not crazy about attributing them to Haydn based on him being alive when they were written...

[Jo498]

As I said above, it is a very enjoyable well played disc. But I find the lack of information annoying.
I am also rather fond of woodwind music in general but I think I will forego the Kloecker complete one, at least for now.

[Gurn Blanston]

As I said above, it is a very enjoyable well played disc. But I find the lack of information annoying.
I am also rather fond of woodwind music in general but I think I will forego the Kloecker complete one, at least for now.

Me too, and I am generally a fan of Klöcker, but I rarely play anything from that box, since I have all the authentic works on good PI recordings.

I am very down on disks which tell you nothing. It makes me feel that maybe the musicians involved don't particularly care, and if they don't, why should I?

[Jo498]

But it is really odd because it is comparatively rarely recorded music, not some warhorse. So both musicians as well as producers and label must have cared in some sense...
I have a couple of the older issues of Huss' series on Koch and the booklets (usually written by Huss himself) are exemplary. I am not ready to spring for the whole boxes on BIS but maybe I'll get a few more of the singles if I find them cheaply.

[Gurn Blanston]

But it is really odd because it is comparatively rarely recorded music, not some warhorse. So both musicians as well as producers and label must have cared in some sense...
I have a couple of the older issues of Huss' series on Koch and the booklets (usually written by Huss himself) are exemplary. I am not ready to spring for the whole boxes on BIS but maybe I'll get a few more of the singles if I find them cheaply.

They are a bit cheaper now that the BIS boxes are out. 5 years ago, I was seeing some of them going for as much as $150!!!

I have 2 or 3 of the originals too. The booklets in the BIS boxes appear to be compilations (although I never compared them side by side) of the smaller booklets into two large ones. Huss wrote a book on Haydn, never translated from the German original, you could well be able to find it over there. It is supposed to be very good, although I wouldn't know. He has some controversial (I like them) dating ideas in the booklets, but otherwise seems to be pretty close to centrist in his beliefs. Nice to read liner notes where the writer wasn't just passing gas...

[Old Listener]

HAYDN 2032 - Volume 2 "Il Filosofo" with Giovanni Antonini & Il Giardino Armonico has been released.  Sym. 22, 46, 47.  It isn't on ArkivMusic or Amazon (USA) yet.


a promo video with good bits from sym. 22.  The sound was a knockout for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1C5D8kByecA

[Gurn Blanston]

HAYDN 2032 - Volume 2 "Il Filosofo" with Giovanni Antonini & Il Giardino Armonico has been released.  Sym. 22, 46, 47.  It isn't on ArkivMusic or Amazon (USA) yet.


a promo video with good bits from sym. 22.  The sound was a knockout for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1C5D8kByecA

Yes, I just found out about it just this AM and checked it out on Outhere's website. Read the liner notes et al. The WF Bach sinfonia looks very interesting too, along with those 3 Haydn's  (22, 46 & 47). Now, if it will only arrive stateside! 

[Jo498]

I identified the piece!
It is in fact Hob II: F2. A simple google search for hob II F2 yielded both the Linos recording on youtube as well as a Russian recording of the piece. Maybe there is an alternative issue of the Capriccio disc with more information...or it was provided for the download offers. I had not thought about such a simple possibility...

http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=C10719

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=112WGHk9_sc

[asin]B007O0XALU[/asin]

But no additional clues about possible authorship or transmission of that piece.

[Gurn Blanston]

I identified the piece!
It is in fact Hob II: F2. A simple google search for hob II F2 yielded both the Linos recording on youtube as well as a Russian recording of the piece. Maybe there is an alternative issue of the Capriccio disc with more information...or it was provided for the download offers. I had not thought about such a simple possibility...

http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=C10719

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=112WGHk9_sc

[asin]B007O0XALU[/asin]

But no additional clues about possible authorship or transmission of that piece.

Thanks for the Youtube link, listening to it now. Apparently the info did exist together in some versions, as you say, since it associates in searches.

I would reckon that if nothing definitively associating this work with Haydn has shown up by now, then it probbly never will. Which is a pity, if it IS authentic Haydn then it would be nice to add it to the oeuvre since we aren't just overrun with early music. And if it is someone else, then it would be nice to know that too. *sigh*

[Gurn Blanston]

I got a couple of new disks within the last week; wish I had them earlier but I didn't know they existed then. Les Agrémens are a Belgian PI band of fine talent, Guy van Waas is a very good conductor, one of the group which is into history. Fortunately he is even more into music, as I found a few glaring errors in his text, but not in his performances!  They are in a program of recreating music played at the Concert Spirituel, in which Haydn played a conspicuous part, as I have mentioned in recent essays. In addition to a Kraus symphony (Vb 143) which was sold by Tost to Siebert in 1788 (not 1786 as Waas states) as being composed by Haydn, and a LeBrun Oboe Concerto which is excellent, we have 2 Haydn symphonies on each disk; 45 & 85 on disk 1 and 82 & 86 on disk 2. Sound is excellent, as Ricercar tends to be, and performances are first rate.   

[Sergeant Rock]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=112WGHk9_sc

Haydn or not, it's still a delightful piece. Thanks for the link.

Sarge

[Karl Henning]

This weekend I've been watching Phil Grabsky's In Search of Mozart (the first of the three films, and for reasons I can detail later, IMO he got better with each successor).  The flick seems only actually to mention Haydn as a passing image (a cavalcade of portraits of the great older composers whom he got to meet on his youthful travels);  and even later on, when the narration discusses events in Mozart's life, but what we are seeing on the screen and listening to is a quartet playing one of the "Haydn" quartets (the d minor quartet, in particular, IIRC), no word on the matter at all.

[Gurn Blanston]

I only knew Harry Christophers from his work with The Sixteen, but this Haydn disc is a good PI recording; nice program, too.

[asin]B00E5NXPOG[/asin]

He's also recorded the Mozart Requiem with the same group.

Yes it is, on both counts. Aisslinn Nosky does a fine job on the VC too. Apparently Christophers has been running the H&H  for some time now, it was good for them to get someone of that stature after Hogwood left them a few years ago. Now, if they would do as much Haydn as they do Handel...