Author Topic: Haydn's Haus  (Read 1144096 times)

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Offline ritter

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12080 on: October 25, 2019, 12:26:46 PM »
The original image might actually have been reversed, which would explain Haydn's leading: he was originall at the right.
But wouldn’t that make all players left-handed in the original?
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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12081 on: October 25, 2019, 03:38:28 PM »
But wouldn’t that make all players left-handed in the original?

Yes it would. I don't buy into the reversed image theory. But I don't bat an eye at Haydn playing a viola, as long as Mozart wasn't there. :)

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Offline Florestan

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12082 on: October 26, 2019, 12:20:00 AM »
But wouldn’t that make all players left-handed in the original?

Yes, I realized that later.  :)
“Beauty must appeal to the senses, must provide us with immediate enjoyment, must impress us or insinuate itself into us without any effort on our part.” — Claude Debussy

Offline Jo498

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12083 on: October 26, 2019, 12:33:29 AM »
Oddly enough, Haydn played the viola whenever he got the opportunity. If you listen to the Baryton Trios (Baryton, Viola & Cello), oftentimes the viola part is nicer than the others (in my ears anyway). Haydn always played it, with the Prince on Baryton and various cellists from the band. He did the same thing Mozart did, made the viola part better than it might have otherwise been and played it himself.
As the baryton trios have no violin part this seems a moot point (and Haydn probably didn't score them with violin because the baryton was supposed to have center stage). But you are right that some composers seem to have loved to play the viola in ensemble (supposedly Bach as well but maybe I read this only wrt to Brandenburg 6). One reason for it seems to be that one is more "inside the works". Another, although this certainly did not apply to Bach, Mozart and Haydn is that viola parts are usually easier and those who never got far on the violin might still do acceptably on viola (like the young Beethoven).
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Against the drums of dawn.
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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12084 on: October 26, 2019, 09:13:43 AM »
As the baryton trios have no violin part this seems a moot point (and Haydn probably didn't score them with violin because the baryton was supposed to have center stage). But you are right that some composers seem to have loved to play the viola in ensemble (supposedly Bach as well but maybe I read this only wrt to Brandenburg 6). One reason for it seems to be that one is more "inside the works". Another, although this certainly did not apply to Bach, Mozart and Haydn is that viola parts are usually easier and those who never got far on the violin might still do acceptably on viola (like the young Beethoven).

True. The viola part in the 6 duos (Hob 6:1-6) is equally challenging though. I don't think I have documentation, but I believe they were written for Haydn and Luigi Tomasini to play together.

I actually just read about Bach and the viola rather recently and thought "well, there's yet another". I agree with your 'inside the work' idea, in fact I may have read that somewhere, particularly about string quartets. It is an instrument that doesn't get noticed until it isn't there anymore. :)

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Offline calyptorhynchus

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12085 on: November 02, 2019, 09:09:49 PM »
I'm getting a bit puzzled by Symphony 97. In the slow movement, in the third variation, Haydn asks the violinists to play sul ponticello, which should produce a 'nasty rasping' (Steinberg).

I can't hear this on any recording I have, including the Bruggen. Is it in fact quite subtle, or is there a recording with audible nasty rasping?

Offline Jo498

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12086 on: November 03, 2019, 03:10:06 AM »
The effect *is* quite subtle in most recordings. And nasty rasping is clearly exaggerated, it's more like a "glassy" effect between spooky and ethereal. I have not checked again but in earlier notes I was also surprised that it is hardly audible in Brüggen's recording. According to said notes I found it more obvious in Szell's and Harnoncourt's recordings.
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Offline calyptorhynchus

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12087 on: November 03, 2019, 12:16:12 PM »
The effect *is* quite subtle in most recordings. And nasty rasping is clearly exaggerated, it's more like a "glassy" effect between spooky and ethereal. I have not checked again but in earlier notes I was also surprised that it is hardly audible in Brüggen's recording. According to said notes I found it more obvious in Szell's and Harnoncourt's recordings.

Thanks, I'll have a listen to those. I did find the Dorati recording on Youtube and could hear a sort of wiry timbre in that variation. I'll look forward to hearing a better quality recording in that passage.

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12088 on: November 15, 2019, 04:59:49 PM »
I am sure this set in well known in these parts, but I just discovered it today and have been enjoying it.  I thought I'd mention it.



Haydn - Complete Keyboard Works
Bart Van Oort



Nice!
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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12089 on: November 15, 2019, 07:35:31 PM »
I am sure this set in well known in these parts, but I just discovered it today and have been enjoying it.  I thought I'd mention it.



Haydn - Complete Keyboard Works
Bart Van Oort


Nice!

Nice indeed. There are some pieces in there which don't crop up elsewhere, although it does make me feel worse that so many of the dances haven't been recorded by small orchestras, since you can see how nice they are. Oort is consistently good, which is why I'm pleased to have both his Haydn & Mozart sets. :)

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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12090 on: December 02, 2019, 04:47:23 PM »
I've been a short hiatus, reaching the end of 1799 was a landmark thing for me, and starting 1800 was a good place to take a break. But in the interim, I thought the time was just right to finally finish up on Haydn's music of the 1790's.  It broke out well into two 5-year blocks, the first in England, the second in Vienna. So if you are a lover of lists, here is part 2 of the biggest music decade of Haydn's life!

The music from Vienna - 1796 - 1800

Thanks!
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Offline hvbias

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12091 on: December 08, 2019, 10:02:06 AM »
I've had Seven Last Words of Christ for string quartet in my heavy listening these last couple of months (Festetics and Mosaiques), what an incredibly beautiful piece. These were late discoveries for me until I found the rather hard to find Festetics CD on Harmonia Mundi... I think I ignored them for so long since it seemed like something transcribed just for the sake of a commission but I am glad to say I found it sooner rather than later.

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12092 on: December 08, 2019, 11:21:27 AM »
I've had Seven Last Words of Christ for string quartet in my heavy listening these last couple of months (Festetics and Mosaiques), what an incredibly beautiful piece. These were late discoveries for me until I found the rather hard to find Festetics CD on Harmonia Mundi... I think I ignored them for so long since it seemed like something transcribed just for the sake of a commission but I am glad to say I found it sooner rather than later.

They are beautiful, without doubt. If you would like to read something of the background of them, here are a couple of essays.
The work itself (orchestral version)
The arrangements for quartet & keyboard

Curious where you found the Festetics disk! I have been looking for that (on HM/Quintana, I'd guess) for several years, without success! :'(

Cheers,
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Offline hvbias

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12093 on: December 08, 2019, 05:06:02 PM »
They are beautiful, without doubt. If you would like to read something of the background of them, here are a couple of essays.
The work itself (orchestral version)
The arrangements for quartet & keyboard

Curious where you found the Festetics disk! I have been looking for that (on HM/Quintana, I'd guess) for several years, without success! :'(

Cheers,
8)

Thank you very much, I look forward to delving more into your entries. I have not heard the one for keyboard, I'll see about hearing it. This is one that came into my local record store, they are cool dudes that text me when they get in classical collections; I've picked up some rare discs this way.

I sent you a PM.

Offline Florestan

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12094 on: January 10, 2020, 03:49:23 AM »
Cross post from the WAYLT thread.

Two absolutely charming discs:



The inclusion of cimbalom in Haydn's Zingareses is a stroke of genius.

An exhilarating experience, really.
“Beauty must appeal to the senses, must provide us with immediate enjoyment, must impress us or insinuate itself into us without any effort on our part.” — Claude Debussy

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12095 on: January 10, 2020, 08:00:39 AM »
Cross post from the WAYLT thread.

Two absolutely charming discs:



The inclusion of cimbalom in Haydn's Zingareses is a stroke of genius.

An exhilarating experience, really.

I have that disk, it is a very nice listen. I can tell you that many of the works on it are only attributions, but even at that, they are fun to listen to. I wish there were other Haydn dances available: there are many which even have scores for the orchestral version, and yet have never been recorded. You can find them in piano reduction (Brautigam, Oort) or you wouldn't even know they existed! That is what makes this one uniquely nice to have. :)

I'll have to check out the Beethoven!

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Offline SonicMan46

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12096 on: March 05, 2020, 03:37:55 PM »
Well, I've been going through the last 20 or so pages of the thread - thanks to Gurn for his wonderful and informative blog posts!  8)

Today, I started a perusal of my Haydn Collection (numbers second only to the Bach clan!) - will likely be culling our duplicates or triplicates and adding and replacing - first up on the list are my Baryton CDs - currently own the selections below (although looking on Amazon today, other recordings seem to have appeared!) - have always loved the Ricecar recordings; will listen to John Hsu tomorrow after a long lapse!

NOW, my issue is w/ the 21 CD Brilliant box - just want to be selective, but for 126+ works which ones to choose?  I went through the entire set on initial purchase years ago but did not notate my 'favorites' - SO, curious if anyone has made a list of their favorites?  Would be fun for me to rip 2-3 dozen and put all on a MP3 (high bit rate) CD-R to just pop into my CD player and listen for a few hours.  Any help will be appreciated - thanks.  Dave :)

   

   

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12097 on: March 05, 2020, 06:40:37 PM »
Well, I've been going through the last 20 or so pages of the thread - thanks to Gurn for his wonderful and informative blog posts!  8)

Today, I started a perusal of my Haydn Collection (numbers second only to the Bach clan!) - will likely be culling our duplicates or triplicates and adding and replacing - first up on the list are my Baryton CDs - currently own the selections below (although looking on Amazon today, other recordings seem to have appeared!) - have always loved the Ricecar recordings; will listen to John Hsu tomorrow after a long lapse!

NOW, my issue is w/ the 21 CD Brilliant box - just want to be selective, but for 126+ works which ones to choose?  I went through the entire set on initial purchase years ago but did not notate my 'favorites' - SO, curious if anyone has made a list of their favorites?  Would be fun for me to rip 2-3 dozen and put all on a MP3 (high bit rate) CD-R to just pop into my CD player and listen for a few hours.  Any help will be appreciated - thanks.  Dave :)

   

   

Hey, Dave!  That's a nice collection of Baryton works. Bigger than most, so you have some choices.





I have found it to be too difficult to pick out specific trios to listen to. I usually listen to a whole disk at a time. Well, the octets of course, which I like all of them, the Ricercar disks and the Huss disks (in the 'Music for Esterhazy & Naples box) are the top contenders for me. For the Trios, my 2 favorite disks are the Balestracci/Ricercar, which I usually rec to people with the caveat "if you don't like this disk, then don't even bother listening to the trios".  :D The other one I especially like is the Netherlands Baryton Trio disk here.

If I was going to do what you are talking about, taking maybe 2 or 3 dozen trios and ripping them to an MP3 disk, I would take those 5 disks you have (they are all very good), eliminate the duplicates (but keep the version off the disk you like best), then see how many you have. Fill it out with random choices from the complete set. I guarantee you will be happy with what you end up with. The situation simply doesn't lend itself to a whole lot of picking and choosing. Anything higher then #30 or so and the quality overall evens out. which then leaves the playing.

The reason I am confident in this method is because earlier this year, I did the same thing myself and I was happy. :D

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Offline SonicMan46

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12098 on: March 06, 2020, 08:52:19 AM »
Hey, Dave!  That's a nice collection of Baryton works. Bigger than most, so you have some choices.

 

I have found it to be too difficult to pick out specific trios to listen to. I usually listen to a whole disk at a time. Well, the octets of course, which I like all of them, the Ricercar disks and the Huss disks (in the 'Music for Esterhazy & Naples box) are the top contenders for me. For the Trios, my 2 favorite disks are the Balestracci/Ricercar, which I usually rec to people with the caveat "if you don't like this disk, then don't even bother listening to the trios".  :D The other one I especially like is the Netherlands Baryton Trio disk here.

If I was going to do what you are talking about, taking maybe 2 or 3 dozen trios and ripping them to an MP3 disk, I would take those 5 disks you have (they are all very good), eliminate the duplicates (but keep the version off the disk you like best), then see how many you have. Fill it out with random choices from the complete set. I guarantee you will be happy with what you end up with. The situation simply doesn't lend itself to a whole lot of picking and choosing. Anything higher then #30 or so and the quality overall evens out. which then leaves the playing.

The reason I am confident in this method is because earlier this year, I did the same thing myself and I was happy. :D

Hi Gurn - thanks for prompt response and suggestions - agree w/ your comments and have listened to the all of my recordings not in the BIG BOX - and would be nice to have a 'mixture' of the trios w/ the octets - Dave :)

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #12099 on: March 06, 2020, 11:18:53 AM »
Hi Gurn - thanks for prompt response and suggestions - agree w/ your comments and have listened to the all of my recordings not in the BIG BOX - and would be nice to have a 'mixture' of the trios w/ the octets - Dave :)

Even though I have several disks which you don't have, I discovered, while putting together one complete trio set, that it was impossible to do without dipping into the Big Box.  Just so many!  If you are curious about the number of tiny bits in the big box (15-20 seconds long), even though they don't say, I can almost certainly tell you that what they did, since the music definitely existed at one time, was to play the incipits which Haydn wrote in the Entwurf Katalog as he composed them. These would be the pieces for solo or duet, music which would be greatly appreciated today!  :(

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