Haydn's Haus

[Que]

Well, of course now I've let the cat out of the bag. Sure, where are you going to get ANY Festetics for under $10?

But that comparison between QM and QF a few posts back made me wary. When any reviewer says "from the first notes you can tell", I generally take note (he said "stiff"). I thought L'Archidubelli was the answer, but...

Well, my point is: sure, you can take note of opinions. But you seemed turned off on a recording quite easily without listening/sampling for yourself to make up you own mind. As far as I can see opinions on the QF are quite divided here.

That quote was from "a" poster on a Google group btw, though I'm not suggesting that the opinion of a "reviewer" counts more than the opinion of anybody else. We're all reviewers, though some opinions are more interesting than others.

About the "stiffness" mentioned: the Festetics take quite "straight" tempi - which is absolutely right in Haydn IMO - but their phrasing is anything but stiff.

(...) what is the "tortured reasoning" in the Que-description you deemed essential, anyway? (...)

Excuse me, but "tortured reasoning" is a direct quote from the description which Que quoted and which you deemed so essential to read, not my evaluation of either your or Que's words. 

Well masolino, it does seem that there was some slight confusion about your attribution of that phrase ("tortured reasoning"). 
And where does it come from anyway? I can't see it being quoted by either of us!

Q

[FideLeo]

And where does it come from anyway? I can't see it being quoted by either of us!

Try Reply n. 140 in this thread, towards the bottom?   It was indeed Antoine's quote (from someone
named Pez) (therefore not my invention), but I am wrong to have associated those words with you.  
Apologies to you for the confusion!

I do agree with the point that the ultimate test is listening for oneself.  There are therefore no
essential or must-read descriptions as such in music or art appreciation since, to our experience,
no metaphors can be as real as the actual work itself.

[Antoine Marchand]

I do agree with the point that the ultimate test is listening for oneself.  There are therefore no essential or must-read descriptions as such in music or art appreciation since, to our experience,
no metaphors can be as real as the actual work itself.

It´s patently obvious and nobody here -not me, at least- have argued that descriptions can replace the listeninig for oneself. It´s an imaginary debate.

[FideLeo]

It´s patently obvious and nobody here -not me, at least- have argued that descriptions can replace the listeninig for oneself. It´s an imaginary debate.

So what's so "essential" about reading the quote from Q that you proposed to all future buyers?

In any case, I consider essential for future buyers to consider the description included by Que in a previous post:

[Antoine Marchand]

So what's so "essential" about reading the quote from Q that you proposed to all future buyers?

"Essential" like is essential to know a good description of any product before to buy. Information for people who doesn't own the product yet, but who is considering it. Not a replacement for the thing itself, but an extremely accurate description (although not your quotation) to decide (or not) the buying.

Word: this is my last post in this slightly sophistic topic.  

[snyprrr]

Well, I slept throught the Festetics auction .

I can't really understand what you all have been "arguing" about for the last page? I mean, not everyone has the $$$ to "check it out for themselves". That's why I try to rely on "intelligent" "reviews". Yes, I'm putting quotes around everything, now, haha.

I've been warming up to Op.33 No.3 "The Bird". What are your Op.33 favs (SQs, not performances)?

I noticed that the Op.33 SQs are a lot shorter than Op.20. (27min vs 17min, etc.)

[Que]

Try Reply n. 140 in this thread, towards the bottom?   It was indeed Antoine's quote (from someone
named Pez) (therefore not my invention), but I am wrong to have associated those words with you. 
Apologies to you for the confusion!

Thanks, and I'm glad that I'm off the hook!

I can't really understand what you all have been "arguing" about for the last page? I mean, not everyone has the $$$ to "check it out for themselves".

And what - and this is the very last time I'm mentioning this (to you) again  - about the FREE samples I've uploaded for everyone to try the performances by the Festetics? 


And what about some quotes of other "intelligent" reviews of that very same QF Haydn opus 50 set discussed in that quote from the google group posted by masolino? (You know, the one about the "stiffness"? ?

The Festetics give brilliant performances. They develop a texture that carries the music along, both in the slow movements and in the faster ones. There is real joy in some of the more cheerful sections, such as the finale of the first quartet, a vivace with a delightfully juvenile tone.

Full review at MusicWeb.

Or:

...the Festetics' consummately elegant, supremely sweet readings for Arcana.

From the simply stated Adagio cantabile of the second quartet to the acerbic Finale of the sixth, the players hit their target dead on. They don't become overwrought, nor are they cold; and they play each note as if it truly matters.

Full review at Classicstoday.

Q

[Que]

Piano Concertos - anything new or comments on what is available currently?

Nearly 2 yrs ago in this thread, Q posted the above but there seem to be little response; but since that time, I've greatly expanded my Haydn collection w/ box sets, including the complete symphonies, baryton works, et al; however, I still have just one disc of piano concertos - so are these compositions worth obtaining in larger numbers? 

Got this reissue of the Staier/ Von der Goltz, a favourite (forte)pianist and a favourite conductor.



Impressions after a few spins. Wonderful performances: very lucid, elegant and sophisticated but nonetheless quite pointed and well articulated, with meticulously detailed and well thought-through phrasing by Staier who plays a copy after Walter, which sounds very good indeed. Very typical for Staier's general style IMO - this is a "thinker's" performance. Recording is spacious but not too resonant with a good focus on the fortepiano, matching the performances in transparency. I haven't heard the Brautigam other than in samples but I'd expect his performances with Mortensen to have more "umph" and to be more driven. Anybody cares to comment?

Anyway: this is warmly recommended!

Q

[snyprrr]

I had mentioned the Smithson SQ as I saw it, but I didn't know that they were HIP, or that it was Jaap's SQ. That makes 4 (four) HIPs for Op.77 (QM, FQ, L'Archibudelli, Smithson).

Any thoughts on Jaap's Smithson? They were one of the first (early '90s), no?

[Bunny]

Both L'Archibudelli and the Smithson were quartets that originated with the recordings commissioned by the Smithsonian Institute to showcase the instruments in its collection. The Smithson qt. And Smithson Players still record under the leadership of the current curator of the historic musical  instruments collection of the Smithsonian, Kenneth Slowik who seems to be the exclusive player of the Servais Stradavarius (cello). I don't believe Bijlsma or Schroeder record for the Smithsonian anymore.

[snyprrr]

That's very interesting. I'm afraid if I ask about different "schools" of HIP SQ playing (QM, QF, Archi-, Smith-), that will derail this Haydn talk. Do they all have the same "basic" approach, or are there radically differing points of entry?

If that question could be answered by comparing all four HIP Op.77s, that would be an interesting "review". Who has the slowest basic speeds, or are they all of similar length? Do they all play "slower" than modern SQs? This is the reason why I've been harping ONLY on Op.77: because these two valedectory (and stately) SQs generally aren't as "quick" as some other Haydn SQs, and as such might be easier for me to appreciate the more "stately" mode of playing exhibited by the HIP movement?

And also because Op.77 seems to be the one with the most HIP choices. The Smithson really intrigues me, but I would like some confirmation.

I'm trying not to feel guilty about skipping that Festetics Op.77 auction.

OCD-be gone!

[Antoine Marchand]

I had mentioned the Smithson SQ as I saw it, but I didn't know that they were HIP, or that it was Jaap's SQ. That makes 4 (four) HIPs for Op.77 (QM, FQ, L'Archibudelli, Smithson).

Hi, snyprr. I own another HIP version by the Kuijken String Quartet: Sigiswald Kuijken, violin (Giovanni Grancino, Milano ca. 1700); François Fernandez, violin (Bart Visser, after Rombous, 1992); Marleen Thiers, viola (anonymous, North-Italy, end 17th century) and Wieland Kuijken, violoncello (attributed to Andrea Amatti, Cremona ca. 1570).

Contents:

I-IV: String Quartet, Op.77 No.1
I. Allegro moderato 6:47
II. Adagio 7:11
III. Menuetto; Presto 4:44
IV. Finale; Presto 5:56

V-VIII: String Quartet, Op.77 No.2
Allegro moderato 7.25
Menuetto presto 4.42
Andante 6.56
Finale vivace assai 6.04

IX-X: String Quartet, Op.103
IX. Andante graciozo 6.22
X. Menuetto;  Ma non troppo presto 5:17

Total time: 61:24

DENON Aliare, 2006

Recorded: Doopsgezinde Kerk, Haarlem, The Netherlands, May 4-6, November 20, 1998

[snyprrr]

Just updating my current Haydn SQ survey ("*" indicates library):

Op.20: Mosaiques*
Op.20/2,5,6: Lindsays

Op.33/3,4,6: Kodaly*

Op.54/Endellion

Opp. 71, 74, 76, 77: Amadeus*
Op.76/4-6: Kodaly*
Op.76/4 + ?: Amati?*

"Rider"/"Emperor": Alban Berg

This is quite a motley crew, but some of the comparisons have been relevatory (QM vs Lindsay). The most exciting thing for me is the "lone wolf" String Quartet groups that only record one or two sets. Op.77 has four HIP contenders, which I find daunting, but...

I'm still curious about the Smithson SQ(Jaap Schroeder) in 54/77.

[SonicMan46]

Gurn - LOL!    So, I'm to be the Guinea Pig!      However, I am tempted, but will give the Brautigam the first try!  Dave 

 

Today - the Brautigam disc of PCs just arrived - did a quick listen and enjoyed tremendously! But, I've not decided on purchase of the larger set as discussed in a previous post - price is just not right for me @ the moment!   

[Gurn Blanston]

Today - the Brautigam disc of PCs just arrived - did a quick listen and enjoyed tremendously! But, I've not decided on purchase of the larger set as discussed in a previous post - price is just not right for me @ the moment!   

Yeah, thought you would like that, Dave. It's a really fine disk. Well, I'll just wait out the other one. I read a nice review at Arkiv of the "Big Box" and the guy says that the keyboard concertos are among the best in the box, so if I finally decide to pull the trigger on it, I'll have that covered (again...).



----------------
Listening to:
Chiara Banchini - Ensemble 415 - Boccherini Op 23 #5 Sextet in D for Strings 2nd mvmt - Allegro brioso assai

[FideLeo]

"Essential" like is essential to know a good description of any product before to buy. Information for people who doesn't own the product yet, but who is considering it. Not a replacement for the thing itself, but an extremely accurate description (although not your quotation) to decide (or not) the buying.

What an essentialist statement.  "Extremely accurate."  So says you.  

My last post in this thread to argue over your loose semantics as well.

[FideLeo]

That's very interesting. I'm afraid if I ask about different "schools" of HIP SQ playing (QM, QF, Archi-, Smith-), that will derail this Haydn talk. Do they all have the same "basic" approach, or are there radically differing points of entry?

Hmm, you are leaving the Brits out of the comparison, who were the first plays in the field so to speak

The Salomon Quartet had recorded quite a bit of Haydn over the years, including Opp.77 and 103, for Hyperion but they don't seem to get much mention in discussions about HIP SQ playing these days.  To me, the key reason for their relative neglected status is that the group usually gives less inflected performances when compared to the later comers, and local inflections count as much as tempi in music of this period.  To my ears again the Festetics are simply not as articulate as the Mosaiques, checked phrase by phrase, even if the basic tempi they use are not that much different.

[Que]

Yeah, thought you would like that, Dave. It's a really fine disk. Well, I'll just wait out the other one. I read a nice review at Arkiv of the "Big Box" and the guy says that the keyboard concertos are among the best in the box, so if I finally decide to pull the trigger on it, I'll have that covered (again...).

WOW!
Who are doing the keyboard concertos in that set BTW?

Q

[Gurn Blanston]

WOW!
Who are doing the keyboard concertos in that set BTW?

Q

The piano concertos (Hob XIII:11, 4, and 3) and violin concertos (Hob VIIa:1, 4, and 2) are played by a gorgeous period-instrument ensemble, L'Arte dell'Arco. Jolanda Violante's fortepiano is equally lovely, and she delivers spirited, sensitive performances. Her phrasing is individual enough to spark interest but never too much so, and she adds her own touches to the cadenzas. The violin concertos are more problematical. Right from the opening ritornello, the phrasing is stiff and square, and yet the tonal beauties of the ensemble and of Federcio Guglielmi's 1757 Gennaro Gagliano violin are exquisite. There is more life and sunshine in the recent Naxos recordings (Fanfare 32:1), even though the modern instruments of the Cologne Chamber Orchestra are less appealing. The two issues complement each other.

The Organ Concertos (Hob XVII:1, 2, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 10) are played by Anton Holzapfel, with Ensemble Dolce Risonanza (an aptly named period-instruments ensemble) led by Florian Wieninger. The trumpets and drums of two C-Major concertos ring out gloriously in the extremely live acoustics of churches in Vienna and Eisenstadt—we are not told what was recorded in which church. All the performances are excellent. Filling out these two CDs are the Double Concerto for Violin and Organ, Hob XVII:6, with Susanne Sholz joining the performers, and—a special delight—13 brief pieces for flute-clock (Hob XIX), played by Holzapfel with convincing flute and wind stops.

I have no problem plugging in my Walffisch VC's in the appropriate place...



----------------
Listening to:
Czech PO \ Kletzki - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 1st mvmt - Allegro, ma non troppo, un poco maestoso

[snyprrr]

Amadeus SQ/Haydn Op.77:

No.1

Allegro moderato 5:45
Adagio 6:02
Menuet. Presto 4:00
Finale.Presto 4:03

No.2

Allegro moderato 5:40
Menuet. Presto 4:28
Andante 6:58
Finale. Vivace assai

Op.103

Andante grazioso 5:20
Menuetto ma non troppo Presto 5:16

As you can see, there are great differences. As I recall, the Kujiken timings were similar to the Festetics, and that's why I was wondering if other HIPsters (QM, Smithson, Archibudelli, Solomon) had the same types of tempos. Anyone else like to contribute?

I don't find these Amadeus tempos "perfect". I can see where you might want to expand No.1/1 or 1/2. I did think their Menuet 1/3 could have been a touch faster, also. And so forth...