Haydn's Haus

[Todd]

I've started my long journey through Dennis Russell Davies' new complete cycle with the Stuttgarter Kammerorchester on Sony.  So far I've made it through the first four discs.  The recordings are in up-to-date sound (would Daimler Benz have funded it and accepted anything else?), and the playing is all extremely polished and attractive.  That written, they lack just a bit of the verve of Adam Fischer's cycle.  And can they be too polished?  Could a little more scruffiness, if you will, sound even better?

The recordings were all made live over the course of 11 years, and it appears that the audiences were small along with the orchestra.  That small orchestra, presuming it stays with its current dimensions, may hamper the late symphonies.

Looks like I made the right call to order it a couple months ago; the price has already jumped from $74 to $130 at Amazon.  Will it have been worth the outlay, and do I need to hear a second complete cycle?  I'm betting yes on both counts.

[Gurn Blanston]

I've started my long journey through Dennis Russell Davies' new complete cycle with the Stuttgarter Kammerorchester on Sony.  So far I've made it through the first four discs.  The recordings are in up-to-date sound (would Daimler Benz have funded it and accepted anything else?), and the playing is all extremely polished and attractive.  That written, they lack just a bit of the verve of Adam Fischer's cycle.  And can they be too polished?  Could a little more scruffiness, if you will, sound even better?

The recordings were all made live over the course of 11 years, and it appears that the audiences were small along with the orchestra.  That small orchestra, presuming it stays with its current dimensions, may hamper the late symphonies.

Looks like I made the right call to order it a couple months ago; the price has already jumped from $74 to $130 at Amazon.  Will it have been worth the outlay, and do I need to hear a second complete cycle?  I'm betting yes on both counts.

Ah, Tod, thanks for sharing this with us. Not sure if anyone else is hearing these yet.

Well, as for polish, you probably would get some argument, but IMO, yes indeed, they certainly can have a bit too much. This has been a topic of discussion concerning the quartets, and it is equally applicable to the symphonies.

The first 2/3 or 3/4 of them should do quite nicely with a small group. Until 1773 or 74 (so, symphonies up through 72 or so), when Esterhazy got its own opera company, he was only writing for 15-18 players anyway. That number enlarged a little then, up to 25-28 at best. The Paris symphonies saw a bit of a jump and then the London's of course, where you could really go with a full orchestra (if you were an musical animal!  ). So you're right, unless he grows it a bit, 15-20 players will work their butts off with 'Military"...

It sounds as though you have already heard the Fischer, or at least some of it. I think the style of that cycle is pretty darn good for modern instruments, so if you want to look for contrasting performances, that should be your choice. Just my opinion.

[Opus106]

I think the style of that [Fischer] cycle is pretty darn good for modern instruments

I listened to the clip of an early symphony a couple of hours ago and was surprised/pleased(?) to find the use of a harpsichord in the background. I think I read that Mackerras used a harpsichord for the early Mozart symphonies in his cycle. That's a nice touch.

[Antoine Marchand]

Antoine I have been very pleased recently buying many items you feature in your posts, keep up the great recommendations and I will be sure and check them out......the people in Haydn Haus thread have recently cost me a small fortune 

That's great, DarkAngel! The kindest of all composers - a real friend like Haydn - deserves that small fortune. 

[Antoine Marchand]

Antoine,
Well, both your question about 7 last words and DarkAngel's about Op 17 catch me in a bad way. I only have one version currently of 7 last.... and that is the Kodaly's, and I don't like it. It seems weightless. On Que's recommendation, I am going to hunt down the Terpsychore's version, but it requires going to Europe for, so I haven't done it yet. I would be curious to know YOUR favorite version, since you seem to have plenty from which to choose!

Hi, Gurn. For some reason I feel a deep and special connection with The Seven Last Words of Our Lord on the Cross; that's the reason because I have 13 different versions of this work: 6 for string quartet, 2 choral, 4 on fortepiano and one orchestral version.

During awhile my favorite string quartet version was by the Quatuor Mosaïques because of its like-orchestral (even "symphonic") style, IMO rather suitable for this specific work. But currently my preferences are with the Kuijken String Quartet. IMO its performances are totally placed into the string quartet genre; with every voice preserving its individuality, but in perfect communication with the other voices. Without to mention an all-stars ensemble: Sigiswald Kuijken (1st violin), François Fernandez (2nd violin), Marleen Thiers (viola) and Barthold Kuijken (violoncello)... Cheap, but unfortunately only available in Japan, AFAIK.  

HERE A LINK  



P.S.: Certainly Wieland, not Barthold Kuijken. 

[Gurn Blanston]

Which is your favorite ensemble in the string quartet version, Gurn?

Well, by odd coincidence, my post about not having another version of this for SQ became invalid about an hour ago, when the Quatuor Terpsycordes suddenly became available as a download on Amazon. Just queuing it up now, so we'll see. If I love it, I'll order the disk, even if I have to go all the way to Holland for it...

[Franco]

That Kuijken String Quartet recording (and any others) is something I would want to hear.

[Gurn Blanston]

Hi, Gurn. For some reason I feel a deep and special connection with The Seven Last Words of Our Lord on the Cross; that's the reason because I have 13 different versions of this work: 6 for string quartet, 2 choral, 4 on fortepiano and one orchestral version.

During awhile my favorite string quartet version was by the Quatuor Mosaïques because of its like-orchestral (even "symphonic") style, IMO rather suitable for this specific work. But currently my preferences are with the Kuijken String Quartet. IMO its performances are totally placed into the string quartet genre; with every voice preserving its individuality, but in perfect communication with the other voices. Without to mention an all-stars ensemble: Sigiswald Kuijken (1st violin), François Fernandez (2nd violin), Marleen Thiers (viola) and Barthold Kuijken (violoncello)... Cheap, but unfortunately only available in Japan, AFAIK.  

HERE A LINK  



P.S.: Certainly Wieland, not Barthold Kuijken. 

So, that's what I get for typing slowly.

Well, that looks interesting, I am always interested in the work of the Kuijken's. If this current version doesn't work out for me, I will give this other a try. I have been wanting something by the Terpsychordes for a while now, this seemed like the perfect opportunity.

[greg]

Most of the works are in A, D, or G major. And no minor scale works -- these were clearly meant for dinner music.

Well, it is Haydn after all...

[Antoine Marchand]

Well, by odd coincidence, my post about not having another version of this for SQ became invalid about an hour ago, when the Quatuor Terpsycordes suddenly became available as a download on Amazon. Just queuing it up now, so we'll see. If I love it, I'll order the disk, even if I have to go all the way to Holland for it...

I have a Schubert's Death and the Maiden by them. Nice performance, but not "too much" HIP, although they play on period instruments. 

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, it is Haydn after all...

Yeah, can you imagine trying to eat to Xenakis?

[greg]

Yeah, can you imagine trying to eat to Xenakis?

That would be an interesting experience. Especially with one of his string ensemble works.
You'll hear some crunching and wonder if you just broke a tooth...

[karlhenning]

Yeah, can you imagine trying to eat to Xenakis?

Maybe some stuffed grape-leaves.

[rubio]

I managed to find a copy of this set. Not excacctly cheap, but worth it (for me that is ). This is traditional Haydn, but with such sensitive style from Woldike and the Vienna Stae Opera Orchestra. There are plenty of poise, elegance and subtle nuances to be savoured. Nice dancing rhythms and beautiful playing there is as well.

[SonicMan46]

Well, first I've become somewhat reluctant to post to this thread - just too much animosity and unnecessary personal argumentative responses (now out to 27+ pages!); yes, I know that many of these posts are likely 'kindly jests' but really does not help the novice in making decisions on choosing these recordings.  Haydn's String Quartet output is unique and wonderful - many recordings are available of these compositions, most already mentioned & discussed w/ overtly wrought opinions, at least in my mind.  Papa Joe's contribution to this genre is amazing and most offerings warrant a balanced and calm analysis; all have their merits and negatives; and of course personal preferences will be strong influences for all of us, i.e. likely just 'one interpretation' will not due - these works are just opened to so many performance options.  Just suggesting some unifying opinions, esp. for those who may be reading this thread and trying to make some 'first' decisions - 

Second, I've been refining my own collection of Haydn's String Quartets - now I've been collecting these works first on LP since the 70s and then on CD in 1984 to the present. so plenty of listening & culling over those decades.  My recent purchases are shown below (all already discussed in these pages); the Buchberger Box on the Brilliant label is a great bargain, if one wants the entire collection; however, reviews & comments here have been quite mixed, both excellent & derogatory - are the latter really deserved?  Over the weekend I've listen to the Op. 9 - Op. 20 recordings of both groups below - the Buchberger Quartet have been in existence since 1974 - 35 years!  They have been concentrating on this Haydn genre, both in recordings and in live performances - the lead violinist is a Professor who has obviously researched this material for a third or more of a century - I just feel that this group understands these works and have made choices as to their performances regarding instruments, repeats, tempos, etc. - I've attached four screen captures from the CDROM that comes in this box which describes some of their 'reasons' for performing these works - these are really not BAD musicians with no experience w/ this repertoire - they know these works well and decided to perform them as to their understanding - I accept & appreciate this approach; so far, I'm enjoying these performances - are they my favorite?  Don't know - but if one wanted a 'box set' of Haydn's SQs, I would suggest this one as an option.

Now, as to the Quatuor Festetics discs below - just finished up on those listenings - really enjoy this group (obviously favored by some our esteemed members on this forum) - their tone is somewhat 'warmer' and more melodious vs. the Buchberger Quartet; however, the later is more edgy & aggressive - personally, I don't mind either approach - this music is so well composed that a number of interpretative approaches will do for me - I'll keep both recordings.  HERE, the music is the important issue, the way the works are performed is secondary in my mind (others will obviously disagree, but w/o having Haydn here to give us his opinion - who knows?).  Now, I did enjoy the QF recordings that I plan to order another 3 sets to replace some of my other recordings of late Opus numbers - this is indeed a superb group and some excellent recordings; thus, I must join those here that have recommended this group!   


 

 

[Antoine Marchand]

I listened to the clip of an early symphony a couple of hours ago and was surprised/pleased(?) to find the use of a harpsichord in the background. I think I read that Mackerras used a harpsichord for the early Mozart symphonies in his cycle. That's a nice touch.

Some time ago I did read an interesting article by Jamie James (October 2, 1994, New York Times) , which discuses the use of continuo, especially harpsichord, in Haydn symphonies. This issue was especially controversial when Christopher Hogwood and Roy Goodman assumed antagonic positions in his own cycles.

I recalled it today when I was listening to these superb Haydn symphonies with continuo:

[Gurn Blanston]

Some time ago I did read an interesting article by Jamie James (October 2, 1994, New York Times) , which discuses the use of continuo, especially harpsichord, in Haydn symphonies. This issue was especially controversial when Christopher Hogwood and Roy Goodman assumed antagonic positions in his own cycles.

I recalled it today when I was listening to these superb Haydn symphonies with continuo:

Interesting article, Antoine. I'm pleased that it ended as it did, with no "positively must be this way" sort of assertion. There is no right or wrong of it. It's quite true, continuo was going away at that time, it may well even be that for some symphonies he wanted it and for others not. it is generally conceded that Haydn himself played the violin at Esterhazy performances (Wyn Jones "Oxford Companion "Haydn" - Performance Practice), so he wouldn't have been writing it to give himself something to do.    I think Hogwood's argument that the music room where these were played was too small to accommodate a harpsichord, and didn't have one in any case, does rather deliver a blow. That said, I do rather enjoy the continuo in the Goodman versions....



----------------
Listening to:
Apollo Ensemble \ Hsu - Hob 01 044 Symphony in e 4th mvmt - Finale: Presto

[Antoine Marchand]

Interesting article, Antoine. I'm pleased that it ended as it did, with no "positively must be this way" sort of assertion. There is no right or wrong of it. It's quite true, continuo was going away at that time, it may well even be that for some symphonies he wanted it and for others not. it is generally conceded that Haydn himself played the violin at Esterhazy performances (Wyn Jones "Oxford Companion "Haydn" - Performance Practice), so he wouldn't have been writing it to give himself something to do.    I think Hogwood's argument that the music room where these were played was too small to accommodate a harpsichord, and didn't have one in any case, does rather deliver a blow. That said, I do rather enjoy the continuo in the Goodman versions....



----------------
Listening to:
Apollo Ensemble \ Hsu - Hob 01 044 Symphony in e 4th mvmt - Finale: Presto

I totally agree with you, Gurn. Both positions can produce fine musical results and to argue historical reasons. 

What's your opinion about that Apollo Ensemble that you are listening to? 

[Gurn Blanston]

I totally agree with you, Gurn. Both positions can produce fine musical results and to argue historical reasons. 

What's your opinion about that Apollo Ensemble that you are listening to? 

Oh, they're brilliant. They put me in mind of the Solomons group. No continuo in sight... 



----------------
Listening to:
Tafelmusik / Bruno Weil - Hob 23b 02 Salve Regina pt 1 - Salve Regina: [Adagio]

[SonicMan46]

Some time ago I did read an interesting article by Jamie James (October 2, 1994, New York Times) , which discuses the use of continuo, especially harpsichord, in Haydn symphonies. This issue was especially controversial when Christopher Hogwood and Roy Goodman assumed antagonic positions in his own cycles.

Antoine - thanks for the link above - enjoyed the article and controversial discussion that may never be resolved?  But, obviously these works can be performed and enjoyed in a number of ways - 

Interesting article, Antoine. I'm pleased that it ended as it did, with no "positively must be this way" sort of assertion. There is no right or wrong of it. It's quite true, continuo was going away at that time, it may well even be that for some symphonies he wanted it and for others not. it is generally conceded that Haydn himself played the violin at Esterhazy performances (Wyn Jones "Oxford Companion "Haydn" - Performance Practice), so he wouldn't have been writing it to give himself something to do.    I think Hogwood's argument that the music room where these were played was too small to accommodate a harpsichord, and didn't have one in any case, does rather deliver a blow. That said, I do rather enjoy the continuo in the Goodman versions....

Gurn - agree w/ the statement in bold at the end of your quote above - I have about a half dozen of the Goodman discs and have always enjoyed them - these are on the Helios label - curious if this cycle was completed and whether a Hyperion 'box set' might be the future?  Dave