Haydn's Haus

[Gurn Blanston]

But...so...uh...are the Alberni being HIP here?

I mean, I'm not bashing, just asking. They "sound" like a "normal" (get the lawyer) group, with judicious vibrato and everything. Does their instrumental sound make them HIP here, or, are they just "normies" who decided to play Original Instruments because they were available?

All I'm saying is, the Alberni don't sound like Fabio Biondi's group, that's for sure, but they doooo appropriate the "sound" of the KittyKat strings, so, I'm just asking what kind of category are they in? They sound like the Salomon, but play like the ABQ. How does this compare with what the Buchbergers are doing (maybe not a good question)?

You guys!

Woot woot!

Well, snipper, I've never heard (of) them so I don't know. If they are using period instruments (old doesn't mean "period"; shorter, flatter necks on the fiddles, lower bridges and gut strings are a closer approximation), and they do things like catch all the repeats, use a moderate amount of vibrato (no vibrato = bullshit), and avoid things like portamento and big slides, and are usually more articulated than legato, then I would say that they are at least trying to approximate historic accuracy. Of course, I'm no expert, it's one of those things that you know it when you see/hear it.



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Listening to:
Hans Ludwig Hirsch - Hob 16 21 Sonata in C for Keyboard 2nd mvmt - Adagio

[Antoine Marchand]

An interesting –and very cheap- CD dedicated to different dances of Haydn's time. Below a complete review with some details on this recording:

Haydn: Zingarese. Ländler. Nocturnes
Ensemble Bella Musica de Vienne
Michael Dittrich
harmonia mundi 1981, 2006
AAD

Tracklist:
Huit Zingarese Hob. IX:28
Länder des "Saisons"
Cinq Contredanses, Quadrille, Menuet Hob. IX:29 & 24    
Minuetti da Ballo 1-6 H. 9:4
Notturni per due flauti e due corni Hob. II:D5   
Six Danses allemandes H. IX:12    

Total Time: 45'45

Review:

The re-release of Michael Dittrich and the Ensemble Bella Musica de Vienne's Harmonia Mundi disc Haydn: Zingarese -- Ländler -- Nocturnes in the spruced up Musique d'abord series returns to the catalog an important album that has not been available in a long time. Recorded in 1980, Haydn: Zingarese -- Ländler -- Nocturnes was popular as an LP and was featured in the soundtrack of the Austrian telefilm Maria Theresia. The compact disc version of this album was one of the first CDs made by Harmonia Mundi, but it was short-lived; the cassette version of the album issued along with the LP was at one point easier to find than the CD. Public radio stations in the United States avidly program material from Haydn: Zingarese -- Ländler -- Nocturnes with some regularity as end-of-the-hour filler, and some have jealously guarded their vinyl LP copies of the album for want of a compact disc version.

At the time Haydn: Zingarese -- Ländler -- Nocturnes was made, the Ensemble Bella Musica de Vienne was barely two years old. Dittrich founded the ensemble with the idea of applying period practice to Viennese "light" music, a move that his contemporaries in Vienna hardly felt was necessary, as performance practices among Viennese dance orchestras have changed so little in the time that Johann Strauss II was still pumping out waltzes one right after another. Nevertheless, Dittrich was right -- a significant difference between Viennese performance traditions established under "Johann II," and those that preceded him. Natural horns are used, as are wooden flutes and a cimbalom in the Zingarese, played expertly by Martha Fabian. With its driving Verbunkos rhythm and glittering cimbalom, this represents Viennese dance music at its most arcane, but manages to be dramatically compelling, gleefully intoxicating, and evocative of what gypsy music must have sounded like in the court toward the end of the eighteenth century. The remainder of the dances are equally enjoyable, if not exotic, but the imitation of a hurdy-gurdy in the last of the Minuetti da Ballo 1-6, Hob. IX: 4, is another detail of which one takes notice apart from the rest.

The one slight problem with Haydn: Zingarese -- Ländler -- Nocturnes is that Franz Josef Haydn did not write the Zingarese. It is not even a question as to whether or not this attribution to Haydn is "uncertain" or "doubtful"; according to those best equipped to know, Haydn did not write it -- period. The Zingarese appears in a print dated 1800 under Haydn's name, but literally hundreds of other prints from that time having nothing to do with Haydn likewise bear an ascription to him -- Haydn was so popular that publishers of the day put Haydn's name on everything. Although Harmonia Mundi could easily have revised the notes to accommodate this information, which is not new, it either decided not to deliberately or somehow missed the opportunity. Haydn: Zingarese -- Ländler -- Nocturnes is a great disc, and one should not hesitate to seek it out and enjoy it. Just bear in mind that Haydn did not compose the Zingarese, and you should be fine. ~ Uncle Dave Lewis, All Music Guide

Images of the original cover (dated 1981) and the current cover (from 2006).

[Gurn Blanston]

A very good choice, Antoine. I have that disk, to my considerable enjoyment. And FWIW, while it is very true that the Zingarese (Hungarian Dance) is not by Haydn, it is nonetheless a pleasure to hear, whoever wrote it.

One thing I would like to know from anyone who might have a handle on it; are there other disks of Haydn dances out there? I have Dorati's "24 Minuets" (Hob IX:16), and then I have found a few others in piano transcription. But that not only doesn't cover all of them, but certainly doesn't satisfy like the disk that Antoine mentions. I think Hob. VIII (Marches) and IX (Dances) are among the most ignored part of his output. Pity really, since with my other favorite composers (Mozart, Beethoven & Schubert) these are among my favorite little gems and I'm sure they would be with Haydn too.



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Listening to:
Hans Ludwig Hirsch - Hob 16 22 Sonata in E for Keyboard 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato

[Antoine Marchand]

One thing I would like to know from anyone who might have a handle on it; are there other disks of Haydn dances out there? I have Dorati's "24 Minuets" (Hob IX:16), and then I have found a few others in piano transcription. But that not only doesn't cover all of them, but certainly doesn't satisfy like the disk that Antoine mentions. I think Hob. VIII (Marches) and IX (Dances) are among the most ignored part of his output. Pity really, since with my other favorite composers (Mozart, Beethoven & Schubert) these are among my favorite little gems and I'm sure they would be with Haydn too.

Those numbers have been very neglected by the discography indeed. I only know about the existence of one additional recording: a CPO disc (Capella Istropolitana/Peter Gurth), which unfortunately covers the same minuets recorded by Dorati. 

[Gurn Blanston]

Those numbers have been very neglected by the discography indeed. I only know about the existence of one additional recording: a CPO disc (Capella Istropolitana/Peter Gurth), which unfortunately covers the same minuets recorded by Dorati. 

Ah, I hadn't even seen that one, but the Dorati is really very good for its time, so replacing it is low on my list. I have also found various disks of mixed marches that will have 1 or 2 Haydn works on them (usually, the one he wrote for the Royal Society of Musicians, IIRC). Well, if we weren't treated to these this year, when will we ever be?

[Herman]

I looked inside the booklet. Original Instruments have their own credits!!! Is this going to be HIP??? Oh, the,...



ok, it's like this. The Albernis appear to play just as well as both the Auryn and the ABQ (yes, I just noticed all the "A"s, too, haha). The inhabit a world at once a beautiful compromise between the Auryn and the ABQ (many of eithers' strengths, without their weaknesses), and then also with an added inspired touch of their own, with a gentle playfulness that is different than the Auryns. Added on to this the sound of the,...trumpets please!... Original Instruments

Strad 'The Maurin', Cremona 1718
Ruggieri, Cremona 1695
Maggini, Brecia c1600
Grancino, Milan 1706

Snips, vintage instruments doesn't mean HIP. Heifetz had a 1742 Guarneri and he sure wasn't playin' HIP styles.

I haven't researched this, but I assume most HIP players use modern copies, since there aren't enough instuments to go around.

The famous Strad and Guarneri fiddles and cellos big name musicians can afford (if they aren't loaned to them) have all been refitted to meet modern demands.

[snyprrr]

Well, snipper, I've never heard (of) them so I don't know. If they are using period instruments (old doesn't mean "period"; shorter, flatter necks on the fiddles, lower bridges and gut strings are a closer approximation), and they do things like catch all the repeats, use a moderate amount of vibrato (no vibrato = bullshit), and avoid things like portamento and big slides, and are usually more articulated than legato, then I would say that they are at least trying to approximate historic accuracy. Of course, I'm no expert, it's one of those things that you know it when you see/hear it.



----------------
Listening to:
Hans Ludwig Hirsch - Hob 16 21 Sonata in C for Keyboard 2nd mvmt - Adagio

Snips, vintage instruments doesn't mean HIP. Heifetz had a 1742 Guarneri and he sure wasn't playin' HIP styles.

I haven't researched this, but I assume most HIP players use modern copies, since there aren't enough instuments to go around.

The famous Strad and Guarneri fiddles and cellos big name musicians can afford (if they aren't loaned to them) have all been refitted to meet modern demands.

In the bold, you both pointed to HIP being not an "instrument" issue, but a "fittings" issue (as far as the instruments per se are concerned), which makes the best sense to me. Now I understand? I'm also curious about Herman's underlined point.

Do the Alberni fit the bill? According to what I've underlined in Gurn's statement,... well, the vibrato's the thing here,... I mean, WHAT IS "natural"? They just sound "natural", like you, me, or Haydn would say, Hey guys, soundin' good!

One of my probs is the idea that if Haydn heard, say, the Kodaly's version of Op.77 (which is pretty straighforwardly beautiful, as far as things go, I think), that he wouldn't just be overjoyed that his music was being made to sound like angels with angelic instruments,... I mean, to Haydn's ears, of course. What WOULD Haydn's reaction to the ABQ be? Would he say, They sound TOO good? Or would he cry tears of joy at the sheer beauty of sound? I get the feeling we (whomever "we" are, haha) act as though we know how Haydn would react to different performances of his music.

My theory is is that people like Haydn or Beethoven would have welcomed the innovations of the last 200 years. I would really really really like to know what they would say about about HIP vs. Modern. What if Haydn himself preferred the Kodaly?



I'm not laying any judgment, I'm just curious about the discussion. My next post will explain. I wish there was someone out there who could comment on the Alberni. When Gurn says, "I would say they are AT LEAST TRYING to historic accuracy." In that case, it really does sound to me that the Alberni are at least aware of, and thinking of, and I suppose (if they really are using gut strings (what else makes THAT sound, though?)) implementing HIP principles, even though, to my ears, their actual playing sounds as unobstrusively innocuous as anything could be, as if they aren't,...oh, I so get in trouble with my bad words choices, haha...

I don't know,... I need a cocoa break! Hold on...

[snyprrr]

ok, you guys sent me over the cliff. Remember that LHQ I say at Border's the other day? Yea, haha, take about addiction principle!

LONDON HAYDN QUARTET OP.17
So, I'm sitting in the car after purchace, crackin it open, and all the ink that has been spilled over these guys is going through my head, and leading the way is Hurwitz's comment of no-vibrato being "lacerating". But, I'm on a mission, my inner Haydn crackhead has been awakened, and I MUST HAVE HIP HAYDN!!!

...throwing money at the problem...
So, I'm sitting there in the car, hands getting clammy, breathing... difficult...wrapper...hard...

air...air...AIR!!!

And finally, the first long held note of the c minor, and, and, and... and WHAAAT???

excuse me, Mr. Hurwitz, you have a problem with THIS???



My first reaction is is that I'm listening to a HIP quartet. After that, it's just pure delight, really. All the talk which has made me paranoid against them melts away. Of course, I've never even heard the music before, so, what do I know? How do the Festetics compare to this, I wonder? These guys aren't as extreme sounding to me as I had been led to believe. I'm on track 11 and it all sounds just fine now that I'm acclimated. Nothing sounds overtly bizarre. Yes, there is the no-vibrato, surgery laser intonation thing, but it's not really anything at all to my ears. It DOES sound like "old fashioned" music, but, hey, give me a break!

They certainly are inside every note.

Uh...I'm sold. Did I mention that as soon as got back to the house, I blindly ordered the Op.9? Yea, I turned zombie real quick, haha! Hey,...I wasn't possibly going to last through the weekend, haha.



So, I'm sitting here writing this, and listening to this really great, vibrant, full of life music that's really just a joy. Ah, now on to disc 2...

ahhh...wow, this E major SQ is 33mins.!!!



Well...guys...the mystery is over for me. I had been laboring under some fear there, and now, hearing this...gamble...well, I do think that it has payed off in spades! Anyone who is on the fence here, IMHO, should not hesitate. If you are a sensitive, mature listener, what can you lose?

If these guys are "extreme", or whatever, than so be it, but to my ears, Hurwitz's comments about thin, vinegary tone are absolutely his own personal problem. Pretty much, what-e-ver, Daveid.

You know, I keep hearing Op.20/5 sprinkled all throughout this set.

ok, now I want to sit with the cool kids in The Diner! No,...uh, on second thought,... hold that, mayo!



Wow, I'm just thinking about all the ink in the last couple of months,...for this?...haha,...there is just so much fear out there. No sharks in this water, IMO.

In a way, the sound like a surgical Biondi unit, perhaps?



I say, this is "bracing" and "antiseptic" in the GOOD GOOD way. I makes me feel April fresh! I like it, you will too!

Vroom vroom, party starta!!!

[jlaurson]

In the bold, you both pointed to HIP being not an "instrument" issue, but a "fittings" issue (as far as the instruments per se are concerned), which makes the best sense to me. Now I understand?

HIP with a violin is not a matter of the age of the instrument (the instrument's body, to be precise), but primarily the bow and the strings (gut strings). And it's a matter of the angles of the strings/fingerboard/neck. The bridge was lower (generally speaking) and thicker, the fingerboard was accordingly flatter, the neck shorter and at the same angle as the violin's body.



There's a great website (where I found and from where I took above image) that gets you all the basics:

http://www.themonteverdiviolins.org/baroque-violin.html

[SonicMan46]

Synprrr - first, your posts are almost impossible to read - too long, too disjointed, and making no sense; please try to improve your editing and content (I've been a medical writer for 30+ years and you would be considered a disaster - can't imagine the amount of time that I would spend editing your manuscripts!  )

Second, please try to be more specific in your comments and the questions that you want to address - this of course relates to the above comments.

Finally, HIP instrument playing as Jens alluded to is certainly open to question, debate, and various opinions.   String instruments were being perfected in the Baroque period (Antonio Stradivari (1644-1737) lived then, as did others, so the issue is not the instrument (or modern reproductions), but different aspects of the playing, e.g. the use of 'pure' gut strings, the bows regarding their production, shapes, etc., and the ways that the instruments were played; there is likely no definitie answer to these questions, but in combination there is a difference of approach in performing these works.

And I must say that for many of these transitional compositions that may 'bridge' this era of different performance practices, I can enjoy either types of interpretation. 

So take a deep breath, have a glass of wine (if you partake), and just listen; much is to be enjoyed regardless of how the performers want to play the music!  Dave

[Gurn Blanston]

Have I ever mentioned on this forum that I refuse to become a member of a performer worshiping cult of personality? If not, I apologize for the oversight. Just sayin'....



----------------
Listening to:
New Dusseldorf Hofmusik / Utiger   Christine Schornsheim - Hob 18 01 Concerto in C for Organ 1st mvmt - Moderato

[Antoine Marchand]

Listening to:
New Dusseldorf Hofmusik / Utiger   Christine Schornsheim - Hob 18 01 Concerto in C for Organ 1st mvmt - Moderato

Are you enjoying that recording, Gurn? 

[Gurn Blanston]

Are you enjoying that recording, Gurn? 

Yes, actually. Just got it a couple days ago. I like the variety of instruments, a Schornsheim trademark, of course. The band plays pretty well too. Other than playing #4 on fortepiano instead of harpsichord (which does give the whole recording better balance), the instruments are correct for the works played, a rarity these days.



----------------
Listening to:
Ensemble Cristofori / Schoonderwoerd - 01 Wilms Op 3 Concerto in E for Fortepiano 1st mvmt - Allegro

[snyprrr]

Synprrr - first, your posts are almost impossible to read - too long, too disjointed, and making no sense; please try to improve your editing and content (I've been a medical writer for 30+ years and you would be considered a disaster - can't imagine the amount of time that I would spend editing your manuscripts!  )

Second, please try to be more specific in your comments and the questions that you want to address - this of course relates to the above comments.Dave

uh... after looking over the last two posts, I think I can appreciate your concern! No, I noticed I wasn't too concerned about finishing sentences earlier today. I think I'm just exhausted from all this discovery lately. I will try to work on the synyaxtical grammatosis.



My main question surrounded the Alberni SQ, a "Modern" quartet playing Britten, who, on the surface of their Haydn recording, "sound" (in that gut string type way) just like a HIP group. Even their playing and attack kind of exhibit the HIP traits I hear in avowed HIP groups, though very mild. They certainly play with a normalish vibrato.

a) there is nothing that makes that "buzzy" sound other than the gut strings, no?

b) if the Alberni are indeed using gut strings, then is their playing really HIP influenced, as if this was to be a HIP project? It was recorded in 1990, after all. Perhaps HIPping it was the craze in 1990? Honestly, I'd maybe be willin to lend the Alberni to someone if that's what it takes to find out.


The Buchberger have the same "buzzy" sound (especially in the cello), but I thought they used regular strings? Do they get the buzzy sound from the no-vibrato held out chord (the proverbial Hurwitz "lacerating" effect)?

Basically, is it a free-for-all in HIP land? All groups basically "sound" the same because of the instrumental set-up used, but the actual playing can range from very mildly "informed" (like I hear in the Alberni), to balls out informed, a la Biondi's group, or the LHQ?



Honestly, it's late and I'm tired, so I know this post isn't going to make any sense either!

Have I ever mentioned on this forum that I refuse to become a member of a performer worshiping cult of personality? If not, I apologize for the oversight. Just sayin'....

The LHQ's reputation totally preceded them, but what I hear coming out of the speakers is just really glorious to listen to.

I was fully prepared to somehow SuperGlue the factory seal back on and return it to Borders if it sucked! I totally could have gone either way the moment I heard the first notes, but the LHQ weren't the purveyors of manic meyhem that I thought they might have been. I was genuinely pleasantly surprised.

I really think you'd like it, Gurn.

I don't think I would be a LHQ vs. Festetics guy in Opp. 9/17. I can already tell by the LHQ's clinical HIPness what I imagine the more "leisurely" Festetics would sound like (along with tuning down), and I can't wait for that day. The LHQ are snappy enough where a more leisurely approach might be also needed for compare. I can't imagine what this music sounds like with the Kodaly (sailing oceans of buttery vibrato, as Jens said, I think!).

Can't we all just get along?

[Herman]

Synprrr - first, your posts are almost impossible to read - too long, too disjointed, and making no sense; please try to improve your editing and content (I've been a medical writer for 30+ years and you would be considered a disaster - can't imagine the amount of time that I would spend editing your manuscripts!  )

uh... after looking over the last two posts, I think I can appreciate your concern! No, I noticed I wasn't too concerned about finishing sentences earlier today. I think I'm just exhausted from all this discovery lately. I will try to work on the synyaxtical grammatosis.

It's not just a matter of the last few posts, Snips. People have been saying this for ages. DavidW, did on several occasions before he gave up on you, and I recall other posters (including myself) saying you're taxing other posters' patience with this habit of just dumping brain vomit and expecting, if not demanding, a response  -  even though your enthusiasm is appreciated. It should be possible to think first and then post. Other people do this too. Or you could edit your posts for clarity. I do that too, as you can tell.

[jlaurson]

It's not just a matter of the last few posts, Snips. People have been saying this for ages. DavidW, did on several occasions before he gave up on you, and I recall other posters (including myself) saying you're taxing other posters' patience with this habit of just dumping [thoughts] and expecting, if not demanding, a response  -  even though your enthusiasm is appreciated. It should be possible to think first and then post. Other people do this too. Or you could edit your posts for clarity. I do that too, as you can tell.

Just think of a puppy, 3 months old, with a brush tied to its tail, expressing itself in acrylic on a crumpled canvas. That helps me ignore the jumble of a form, when I don't ignore the post altogether. If nothing else, foam-at-the-mouth still beats "I have that recording. It cost me $X.xx. I haven't listened to it yet." -type of comments.

[Gurn Blanston]

Jens,
Amen to that last!

Herman,
You've always been an optimist...

Snipper,
No, the Buchbergers play with gut strings, they are just not tuned down to 18th century tonal range (they are the modern A = 440 rather than A = 415-430).



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Listening to:
Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra / Ferenc Fricsay - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 1st mvmt - Allegro ma non troppo, un poco maestoso

[snyprrr]

It's not just a matter of the last few posts, Snips. People have been saying this for ages. DavidW, did on several occasions before he gave up on you, and I recall other posters (including myself) saying you're taxing other posters' patience with this habit of just dumping brain vomit and expecting, if not demanding, a response  -  even though your enthusiasm is appreciated. It should be possible to think first and then post. Other people do this too. Or you could edit your posts for clarity. I do that too, as you can tell.

I'm sorry, but I can't quite understand what you're saying.

[Brahmsian]

I like Snyprrr's posts and ultra-enthusiasm.  Doesn't mean I read every single word, all the time. 

[snyprrr]

I like Snyprrr's posts and ultra-enthusiasm.  Doesn't mean I read every single word, all the time. 

Does anyone think I want to go back and re-read my own page long posts to edit them?

Hahahahahahahaha ...

I am but a Voice Crying in the Wilderness saying Let My CDs Go! My posts are not for your Wretched Fiddles, but for One Greater Who Comes After, Who Alone will be able to make sense of all my drivel!




Listen not to every word, lest you hear your own servant curse thee!

-Proverbs