Author Topic: Haydn's Haus  (Read 1506405 times)

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Online SonicMan46

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1540 on: December 22, 2009, 04:52:22 PM »
Not sure 'which' Haydn thread this might belong in?  Certainly not the SQs!  But just a quote from a recent post in the 'listening thread' below concerning Haydn's keyboard concertos - unfortunately, the addition of the 2-CD set from C. Shornsheim included all of the performances of the Brautigam shown below (although several on different instruments) - will keep both, but still 'incomplete' as to the entirety of Joe's output in this area -  :-\

Quote
Haydn, Joseph - Keyboard Concerti (disc 1 of 2) w/ Christine Schornsheim; set played on organ, harpsichord, & fortepiano (all three instruments on the first disc that I'm listening to @ the moment).

Now, Brautigam has a single disc out on fortepiano of some of these recordings; just looking at the liner notes, Schornsheim covers all of the Brautigam works except she uses a harpsichord on 2 of the works (vs. his fortepiano) - of course, the instruments and the interpretations will be different, so probably worth owning both sets of performances?  But, these are still NOT complete - seems that 4 CDs are needed to cover all of Haydn's works for this genre.   :D

 


Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1541 on: December 22, 2009, 06:28:21 PM »
Not sure 'which' Haydn thread this might belong in?  Certainly not the SQs!  But just a quote from a recent post in the 'listening thread' below concerning Haydn's keyboard concertos - unfortunately, the addition of the 2-CD set from C. Shornsheim included all of the performances of the Brautigam shown below (although several on different instruments) - will keep both, but still 'incomplete' as to the entirety of Joe's output in this area -  :-\

Well, Dave, you have to take both disks at their face value and be pleased that they are nice performances, because there are clearly some instrument choice issues involved.

Brautigam does 4 concertos, 2, 3, 4 & 11. Of these, 3, 4 & 11 are virtually always done on the (forte)piano. In fact, only #11 is even remotely possibly a true fortepiano work. It was composed in 1780-81, when one would expect fortepiano, but when, in fact, Haydn didn't have one yet. Still no saying that he didn't write for one, since he undoubtedly knew what they sounded like, but in all likelihood, the premiere of this work was performed on a harpsichord. And 2, 4 & 3 date from 1767, 1769 & 1771 respectively, so there is no doubt they are harpsichord concertos. But hey, they sound fine on a fortepiano, and Brautigam kicks a little ass there, I like that disk. :)

Schornsheim is far more correct in her choices of instruments, her only faux pas being to match Brautigam's with #4. If you want to hear #4 performed the way it's meant to be, I'm afraid you'll have to go to this disk:



and hear Ton Koopman and the Amsterdam Baroque do it. Which brings us to your final issue. Which is the 4 disk thing. Well, yes, if you were to combine Koopman's and Schornsheim's 2 disk sets, then you would have everything you need in the way of keyboard concerti by Haydn. Koopman doesn't include any of the organ concerti because he has them on another disk (<>$30 is you can find it ::) ). And Schornsheim doesn't include either Bob XVIII:6 (because it is a duo concerto for keyboard and violin) or anything from Hob XIV, which aren't full blown concertos, but are instead concertinos and divertimentos, while Koopman includes all of them, properly played on harpsichord. And as a bonus, you even get a (nice) harpsichord version of Hob. XVIII:11 in the event you want to be persnickety about the instrument. ;D  So for anyone in that dilemma, this would be the combination I would recommend. If you don't give a rat's patootie about any of that, get the Brautigam and enjoy some very nice playing. ;)

8)



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Online SonicMan46

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1542 on: December 22, 2009, 07:07:07 PM »
Gurn - thanks for the discussion & the Koopman recommendation - will take a look and likely add to my 'wish list' just to complete the Haydn keyboard concerti works - Dave  :D

Antoine Marchand

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1543 on: December 22, 2009, 07:28:38 PM »
... just to complete the Haydn keyboard concerti works - Dave  :D

I think Dave that -as Gurn suggests- Schornsheim's discs really include the complete solo keyboard concertos. In other words, there are only eight solo keyboard concertos (currently considered authentic), but if you want to add concertinos and divertimentos with keyboard, you would need two additional discs. But these concertinos and divertimentos belong to another genre. I know: it is just a terminological issue.  :)   

snyprrr

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1544 on: December 22, 2009, 10:12:28 PM »
Just a friendly reminder that we're on Page 31, so we only have two more pages before our big Op.33 Bash when we reach 33 Pages. Everyone's invited. Perhaps we'll have games and prizes (c'mon kids, lets put on a show!)?!!

btw- we're keeping pace with the regular Haydn's Haus Thread, and I predict we overtake them after the holidays! ::) :-* ;D Once More Unto the Breach!

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1545 on: December 23, 2009, 06:14:47 AM »
I think Dave that -as Gurn suggests- Schornsheim's discs really include the complete solo keyboard concertos. In other words, there are only eight solo keyboard concertos (currently considered authentic), but if you want to add concertinos and divertimentos with keyboard, you would need two additional discs. But these concertinos and divertimentos belong to another genre. I know: it is just a terminological issue. :)   

Of course, terminological issues are what we live for, eh? :)  Certainly Hoboken thought they were a different genre, although I, and thousands of others, might not agree with him. The difference between a concertino and a concerto are hard enough to define that one doesn't find definitions just laying around loose. But relatively, it is analogous to the difference between a sonata and a sonatina, which is only a question of degree...

And then we have Haydn's favorite, the 'divertimento'. Nearly every genre he wrote in, from keyboard sonata to string trio, string quartet, piano trio and concerto, he called a divertimento at one time or another. And in the baryton works, everything from a duo to an octet is a divertimento too! :D

But anyway, in terms of being 'full-blown' concertos, Hob XVIII has them all, I guess. Back in those days there is a lot less of a 'cut and dried' flavor to the music. We modern bin-keepers would have been suicidal at all that untidiness!  ;)

8)
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Offline rubio

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1546 on: December 23, 2009, 06:18:16 AM »
I just noticed that Bruno Weil has recorded some of the London symphonies. How does this compare to his earlier Haydn releases?

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Offline Que

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1547 on: December 23, 2009, 06:22:26 AM »
I just noticed that Bruno Weil has recorded some of the London symphonies. How does this compare to his earlier Haydn releases?



Great news! :o :) Weil didn't record these symphonies for Sony, which were with Tafelmusik instead of the Capella Coloniensis BTW. This goes on the list forthwith. 8)

Q

Antoine Marchand

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1548 on: December 23, 2009, 07:02:02 AM »
But anyway, in terms of being 'full-blown' concertos, Hob XVIII has them all, I guess. Back in those days there is a lot less of a 'cut and dried' flavor to the music. We modern bin-keepers would have been suicidal at all that untidiness!  ;)

Certainly all these things are debatable because classifications are just verbal conventions. However, I agree with the criteria used by Hoboken to define in this case the works considered “concertos”, especially paying attention to the almost undisputed prominence of the keyboard and the role and nature of the “orchestra” in these works of the Hob. XVIII. Personally, I see the concertinos and divertimentos more like chamber music, not just for the size of the forces (finally not so different in some cases), but for the more egalitarian nature of the communication among the instruments.  :)

snyprrr

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1549 on: December 24, 2009, 09:39:22 PM »
Well, sooomeone sent me the Festetics Op.20, and, for the first time since I heard about them 6 months ago on This Very Thread, I was able to hear them. I gotta tell you that hearing them simply makes me think of the months I fantasized what they might sound like, and all the ways they've been talked about. "Leisurely" certainly came to mind, haha! But please, let me give you my 100% TOOL (Totally Objective Opinionated Longwindedness):



My non-musical friend is familiar with Op.20/2 in C Major. When the Festetics came on, it wasn't 20 seconds later that she said, "It sounds like old men,... picking up young girls!" And I laughed, remembering the "spirited amateurs" comment. This was no cut, though, and indeed, the Festetics do sound like a mature group to my virgin ears. Of course, the mellow sound of the tuned down gut strings, and, may I say "unbuttoned"? approach (though, at one point my friend said "schoolmasters"), lends these interpretations a very "lived in" and yet spontaneous "live" feel.

My next impression is is that the Festetics "sound" NOT like a HIP band at all, but one of those more old fashioned 1950s type quartets. Yea, maybe they use minimal vibrato (their take on this is the easiest on the ears of any HIP band I've heard), but, IMHO ::), they sound to me like the "play" what I would just call the "natural" style. I mean, to me, it just sounds like a modern quartet, except that when chords and notes are held out, I can hear that non-vibrato buzz/fuzz, though in a very natural way, very pleasant. So, this way a big revelation to me. I haven't heard the Tatrai, but I would rather compare the Festetics to them, rather than to Mosaiques.

The very smallish "pleasant sounding" (my words) room, and fairly upfront recording, make this "afternoon merry music making" interpretation even more "right there in the room with you." It literally sounds as if the Festetics are right over there, and you're eavesdropping on their perfect practice session. This is about the most intimate Haydn you're probably ever going to get. The smile factor is pretty high.

So, how do they play the music of Op. 20, to my ears? Well, all this talk of "leisurely" I can understand, but I fail to hear it that much (the only first mvmt that seemed a touch less than was No.6 (compared to Lindsays, very much so)). I thought, though by no means speed demons (Lindsays, London Haydn Qrt), their tempos appeared to be right about the sweet spot all the time. They appeared extremely dependable to deliver the same thing over and over (hence, the allusion to old fashioned, "dependable" quartets). Sure, they are an ultra fine hair slower than most everybody all the way around (because of the "unbuttoned" approach), but, within that framework, everything sounds right. There WERE a few spots where I did feel drag though, mostly, I supposed in the meneuts or finales. I gotta say that I like my finales for all they're worth, and it was here that I found my most extreme compares.

Of course, I had to check out the first mvmt of No.5 right away to see if they did the big melody they way I like, and... no, and... I think it must be a HIP thing, that they don't allow themselves the overt expression, like I hear in first violin Cropper of the Lindsays. Neither the Mosaiques or the Festetics play the melody as impassioned as the Lindsays, but, beyond that, both do just fine. And, the Festetics do get it a bit better than the QM, IMHO, in this crucial part ( in the QM, the lead violin goes more into the texture, rather than soaring out front; the Festetics give the violin a little more spotlight, but the player won't allow his notes to really pierce my soul). Other than that, the Festetics' slightly folksy approach imbues this mvmt with a deliciously rustic feel (also enhanced by the close recording) that "sounds" totally different than, say, the Lindsays' more Heroic approach which is married to their sumptuously modern-icy-cool-warm ASV recording.

In fact, I thought the Festetics made No.5 sound like late Beethoven. Does anyone else hear this? And, of course, I mean it in the good way.



Concerning my other obsession, Op.20/2, I thought the close recording hampered true enjoyment for me. Not that I didn't enjoy the music, but the recording made this piece sound to "big" for me, too upfront, and I've got to have a little space in No.2. This is the same situation that I thought worked so well for No.5.

I had a direct compare in No.4 with the Esterhazy (who, btw, sound totally HIP to me, whilst the Festetics sound like the Festetics), and, ultimately, both bands play the music pretty much the same, which then led to the one observation about the Festetics that may generate some controversy (and, also something I don't recall being mentioned that strongly about the QF). When compared to the kaleid...oh, how do you spell it?, you know,... sound of the LHQ, or the very glittering soundworld of the Esterhazy, the Festetics do appear, just a bit by comparison, bland in their general ensemble tone. Individuals will make interesting sounds here and there (the cello is very deep sounding), but, generally, there appears to be a general "curtain" over the whole tonal landscape. PLEASE don't let anyone get their panties in a bunch here, it's JUST AN OBSERVATION. Perhaps I'm wrong ;D!

Yes, this post will cut up into weekly installments ::)!



I'm almost done, but I want to make sure I say everything I want to say. After thinking about the Festetics for 6 months, it's almost anti-climactic hearing them. I find them kind of plain-jane in the grand scene of things, but it is this very casual approach of theirs that is their total charm. The unbuttoned performances coupled with the living room recording give an extremely "homey" and happy impression. They seem solid, rugged, manly (as opposed to, perhaps, the Esterhazy's more feminine approach). Dependable. Smile worthy.

Though, by themselves, there is no real downside (there was much instance of intonation wondering in the slow mvmt of No.1 that I would need someone elses' opinion on (could it have just been the no vibrato thing?)), when compared with others, the Festetics seem to appear a shade bland. This is the same thing I see in the Kodaly. They are a great base interpretation on which to base other interpretations.

I'll be honest. I thought I was having problems with the Lindsays' Op.20, with a couple of particular intonation guessing sections, but, after this compare, I have come away so totally impressed with the Lindsays here. Their enthusiasm is UNMATCHED. Perhaps their leader's almost idiot-savant enthusiasm gets the best of him in microscopic places (I still don't know if I'm hearing anything wrong, or not), but, honestly, the Lindsays seem to do everything light years beyond everybody but the LHQ.

The Quartetto Esterhazy], also, has the most magical, Christmassy "sound" to their recordings of Nos. 2 & 4. Crackling notes break off like crackling sparks in a fluffy church ambience that leaves a halo around the intruments. And, their performances are the epitome of HIP delicacy. This sounds the most like four musicians playing in a castle hundreds of years ago. So cuddly!



Anyhow, I'm glad I finally heard the Festetics. By default of their recording (coupled with their approach) they have a sound just as distinguishable as the Mosaiques. They have their own Haydn niche, which no one else really comes anywhere near. They are the most "conversational" sounding group I've heard. Everything is extremely low key, even though they can generate the requisite heat. I think the word "leisurely" set me up. I don't find them "really" leisurely, but their approach is so genial, what other words can you use?

The bottom line is that, for me, the close up recording and "Sunday afternoon salon" unbuttoned approach combine to make you think your uncle and his friends are  playing in the same room with you(though, not in the audiophile way). You definitely get a certain thing with this set. Personally, I wouldn't want their close up recording for every opus number (not for Op.20 (more reverb!), but maybe I'd like their dry sound more in something less dramatic and more motivic, such as Op.50, where their drier sound would help clarify lines better, perhaps?).

I remembered Jens friend scrunching her nose whenever the Festetics came on. I didn't have that reaction here. No real vinegar thing at all here, I thought.

Still, if you didn't tell me they were HIP, it would take me a while to hear the super little vibrato. They just play too naturally, and sound,...well...modern! Why haven't I heard this from anyone? I thought they weren't HIP.

Festetics= solid, dependable..., "not much this-not too little that"... dry, upfront acoustic (pleasant, not harsh)... your uncle, the schoolmaster, and a couple of beers.

I think Haydn would like em.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2009, 10:05:39 AM by snyprrr »

snyprrr

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1550 on: December 24, 2009, 09:41:06 PM »
Of course, I'm ASSuming that their approach and sound are consistant throughout the cycle.

Offline Que

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1551 on: December 25, 2009, 01:12:53 AM »
Of course, I'm ASSuming that their approach and sound are consistant throughout the cycle.

Their style will be, and in that respect I think you picked up on their Hungarian string playing heritage - which is for me as important as their general HIP credentials and gives them that decidedly different flavour that suits Haydn like a glove IMO.
 
But I think you'll find that they will treat the middle and the late quartets appropriately different.

Q

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1552 on: December 25, 2009, 07:34:51 AM »
Snips,
Well, the things that struck you are precisely those which I mentioned as being the ones that their appeal to me consists in. IMHO, for the 4tets through Op 50, that's the impression they should give, given the fact that this is what the music was composed for. Glad yuo finally got to hear them, now you know what I was talking about. :)

8)

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jlaurson

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1553 on: December 25, 2009, 08:55:20 AM »
Great news! :o :) Weil didn't record these symphonies for Sony, which were with Tafelmusik instead of the Capella Coloniensis BTW. This goes on the list forthwith. 8)

Q

There had been confusion about Capella Coloniensis in its original spelling. Fortunately that has been rectumfied, since.

Offline Que

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1554 on: December 26, 2009, 06:41:08 AM »
There had been confusion about Capella Coloniensis in its original spelling. Fortunately that has been rectumfied, since.

Indeed. Cappella it is... 8)

Q
« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 01:29:07 AM by Que »

snyprrr

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1555 on: December 27, 2009, 03:31:44 PM »
I'm waking up to the results of my bingeing... I have my first (and hopefully last) knucklewrap.

I saw this Ulbrich Qrt. cd, and, though I could find no info on them, I deduced that they were probably a '70s band. And so, they are. This set was recorded in 1973, though, that's all the info in the cruddy little booklet. Perhaps someone has an anectdote.



So, I had to go straight to the first mvmt. of No.5. Well, from the first notes, I'm feeling pretty good, though the recording is showing its' age, and the performance itself seems a slight bit reserved. Then, the first transition to the major key, that important descending canonic, is played very elegantly indeed, and yes, they even slightly spotlight the lead violin in the big melody (though... still not very passionate at all, grrmph). However, this is where individual touches end for me. The rest of the cd, the cd as a whole, suffers from a very "good" performance, but, as I'm now beginning to feel about Haydn SQs, "good" is the enemy of "Great"! It's all very selfless, but, some (or,...more than) of the excitement is missing. I will say that ALL of the timings are the shortest I've seen anywhere. Nos. 1 & 6 both clock in under 15 mins.! Still, this does not translate into anything appreciable.

Really, there's nothing else to say here. I could barely finish the listen. I just have no tolerance for "good" any more in Haydn. Does anyone want this? I'll send it.

Jeeves, bring me my slippers!

RIP

jlaurson

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1556 on: December 28, 2009, 04:08:20 PM »
What a lovely instrument that is, Dave. The keys are beautiful! Tortoiseshell you reckon?

There isn't an endangered species that Adlam wouldn't kill in the pursuit of keyboard beauty.  ;D

I ordered mine with the hammers covered with leather made of baby-panda snout. There simply is nothing like it, even if it is quite pricey at three pandas per octave. (Roughly.)



But seriously, folks: Haydn to Have! http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=556


Haydn 2009 – Haydn Recordings to Own





jlaurson

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1557 on: December 28, 2009, 04:10:11 PM »
Not a best of the year, but a "Best of Haydn" on a single (or double) disc... in celebration of the Haydn celebrations of 2009.

Haydn to Have! http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=556


Haydn 2009 – Haydn Recordings to Own

jlaurson

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1558 on: December 28, 2009, 04:11:14 PM »
The sunglasses on your smiley... splatter-guard????  ;D

Back to topic, if tangentally:

Not a best of the year, but a "Best of Haydn" on a single (or double) disc... in celebration of the Haydn celebrations of 2009.

Haydn to Have! http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=556


Haydn 2009 – Haydn Recordings to Own

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #1559 on: December 28, 2009, 06:09:32 PM »
There isn't an endangered species that Adlam wouldn't kill in the pursuit of keyboard beauty.  ;D

I ordered mine with the hammers covered with leather made of baby-panda snout. There simply is nothing like it, even if it is quite pricey at three pandas per octave. (Roughly.)



But seriously, folks: Haydn to Have! http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=556


Haydn 2009 – Haydn Recordings to Own


Now, that is cool! Do you suppose you can use the fur off the hinders for the black keys? True, it might need shaved down a bit, but it seems like you could kill more pandas with each stone... ;)

8)

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