Haydn's Haus

[Gurn Blanston]

Dave, glad you posted this, I've wanted to hear someone's reaction to it before I spent the $$ on it myself...   You are such a wonderful guinea pig.

There is little doubt that the "violin sonatas" are merely reductions of the piano trios. So the question becomes simply "did Joe do it or someone else?". As accompanied keyboard sonatas, the theory is that either or both of the string instruments could be elided and no harm would come to the music. In the case of Haydn's, that is a bit of a jump, since there are, in fact, a few obligatto passages for violin and/or cello, but not really anything that can't get covered by a very good player. The cello is probably the easiest instrument to drop off, since it basically doubles the left hand of the keyboard player.

I will offer this as my opinion, based solely on my reading and listening to masses of Haydn materials recently; he would have had no objection at all to having these works arranged for only 2 players (or even just 1 player), but he probably din't do it himself. My 2 cents.

[SonicMan46]

Dave, glad you posted this, I've wanted to hear someone's reaction to it before I spent the $$ on it myself...   You are such a wonderful guinea pig.

There is little doubt that the "violin sonatas" are merely reductions of the piano trios. So the question becomes simply "did Joe do it or someone else?".

I will offer this as my opinion, based solely on my reading and listening to masses of Haydn materials recently; he would have had no objection at all to having these works arranged for only 2 players (or even just 1 player), but he probably din't do it himself. My 2 cents.

Hello Gurn - LOL!    I believe that I got a pretty good deal on that disc but can't remember where at the moment!  But when it comes to acquiring Haydn, there seems to be no stopping, and then one wants other versions! 

The HobXV:31 & 32 works are certainly 'trio reductions' w/ the cello eliminated - the catalog states that these dated to 1794-5, when he would have been in London the second time - guess that he could have been responsible and possibly could have played?  Probably would require some detailed research of letters, etc. of the times?

I'm more curious about those other 3 works on the disc w/ that Hob.XV a N.1-3; just not sure what that 'a' means, of course, realizing that this catalog has gone through revisions - but on my brief review, I could not match up the listings w/ the keys - despite the 'controversy' the recording is still enjoyable!  Dave 

[Gurn Blanston]

Hello Gurn - LOL!    I believe that I got a pretty good deal on that disc but can't remember where at the moment!  But when it comes to acquiring Haydn, there seems to be no stopping, and then one wants other versions! 

The HobXV:31 & 32 works are certainly 'trio reductions' w/ the cello eliminated - the catalog states that these dated to 1794-5, when he would have been in London the second time - guess that he could have been responsible and possibly could have played?  Probably would require some detailed research of letters, etc. of the times?

I'm more curious about those other 3 works on the disc w/ that Hob.XV a N.1-3; just not sure what that 'a' means, of course, realizing that this catalog has gone through revisions - but on my brief review, I could not match up the listings w/ the keys - despite the 'controversy' the recording is still enjoyable!  Dave 

Well, the 'a' is only a partial mystery. Notice that "Hob. I"  is symphonies, while "Hob. Ia" is overtures (other orchestral works, IOW). And "Hob. XVII" is "Keyboard Works other than Sonatas", while "XVIIa" is keyboard works for 4 hands. So anyway, you can see the pattern, they are subdivisions of related genres. Now for the mystery part; I don't find a Hob XVa, so even though the implication is that it is simply another form of "Accompanied Sonata", my only guess is that it turns up only in an appendix (Anhang), the implication of that being that they are not considered authentic. 

BTW, I have the one in G major on a disk that has, in addition to Haydn, violin sonatas by two of his close admirers, R. Strauss and Schnittke!  There's some variety for you.

[Gurn Blanston]

As many of you know, I have been working for the last year on amassing a collection of the complete works of Haydn. Little did I know starting out the challenges that awaited me. I love that.

Needless to say, I still haven't got a complete collection of Haydn, it can't be done, at least not with any certainty. As I laid out earlier, with a good deal of research and a fair amount of faith, I have attempted to position things chronologically, not just because that's how my pedantic little mind works, but also because I want to get a great deal of pleasure out of listening, and having works in the order of Hoboken classes and by year, tends to give them the best shuffle I can do.

A word here about how I did some things. In the early years, when dating is uncertain (he was a bastard that way, he didn't date things ) usually a range is given. So if there is a group of 12 works for the same ensemble, and the date range is given as e.g. - 1765-67, then I put 4 works in each year. This tends to make the big chunks a bit smaller, and probably is a more realistic reflection of how he composed (he was not simply  going to sit down and write 24 consecutive baryton trios, he had lots of other things to do!).

So for the next few days, I am going to start posting a bit at a time. Tonight is easy, I can get the whole first decade in there (based on what I have, of course, not on what he might actually have produced). I invite your feedback, input, questions, answers, corrections, suggestions, all that stuff. I am doing this to learn some stuff. Happy to share that with anyone who wants to do the same.



----------------
Listening to:
Hamburg Soloists / Emil Klein - Hob 03 05 Divertimento in Eb for Strings Op 1 #5 "Op 0" 1st mvmt - Presto

[Gurn Blanston]

1749            
Hob 22_03 Missa 'rorate coeli desuper'

1750
Hob 23_01 Missa Brevis in F
Hob 23c_5a Motets of the Holy Sacrament

1751

1752                  
Hob 17_07 5 Variations in D for Keyboard

1753
Hob 02_02 Divertimento in G for String Quintet
Hob 18_02 Concerto in D for Harpsichord
Hob 18_10 Concerto in C for Organ

1754
Hob 18_05 Concerto in C for Harpsichord
Hob 18_08 Concerto in C for Organ

1755   

1756
Hob 18_01 Concerto in C for Organ            
Hob 18_06 Concerto in F for Keyboard & Violin
Hob 23b_01 Salve Regina

1757      
Hob 02_20 Divertimento in F 2 oboes, 2 Horns, 2 violins, 2 violas and bass   
Hob 03_01 Divertimento in Bb for Strings Op 1 #1                  
Hob 03_02 Divertimento in Eb for Strings Op 1 #2                  
Hob 03_03 Divertimento in D for Strings Op 1 #3                  
Hob 03_04 Divertimento in G for Strings Op 1 #4
Hob 15_01 Trio in g for Keyboard & Strings                  
Hob 15_37 Trio in F for Keyboard & Strings                  
Hob 15_41 Trio in G for Keyboard & Strings                  
Hob 15_C1 Trio in C for Keyboard & Strings

1758      
Hob 01_001 Symphony in D                  
Hob 01_037 Symphony in C         
Hob 02_18 Divertimento in D for Wind Sextet            
Hob 03_05 Divertimento in Eb for Strings Op 1 #5 Op 0                  
Hob 03_06 Divertimento in C for Strings Op 1 #6                  
Hob 03_07 Divertimento in A for Strings Op 2 #1

1759   
Hob 01_107 Symphony in Bb      
Hob 02_11 Divertimento in C for Winds & Strings
Hob 02_D5 Notturno for 2 Flutes & 2 Horns               
Hob 03_08 Divertimento in E for Strings Op 2 #2                  
Hob 03_10 Divertimento in F for Strings Op 2 #4                  
Hob 03_12 Divertimento in Bb for Strings Op 2 #6
Hob 15_34 Trio in E for Piano & Strings                  
Hob 15_35 Trio in A for Piano & Strings

[Florestan]

Nice job, Gurn! Thank you and keep it going!

1757      
Hob 15_01 Trio in g for Keyboard & Strings            
Hob 15_37 Trio in F for Keyboard & Strings            
Hob 15_41 Trio in G for Keyboard & Strings            
Hob 15_C1 Trio in C for Keyboard & Strings

               
1759   
Hob 15_34 Trio in E for Piano & Strings            
Hob 15_35 Trio in A for Piano & Strings

Why this difference?

[Opus106]

My guess: you can choose between the harpsichord, clavichord and the forte-piano depending upon your mood.

[Florestan]

My guess: you can choose between the harpsichord, clavichord and the forte-piano depending upon your mood.

This works for keyboard, but piano is different from all of the above.

[Opus106]

This works for keyboard, but piano is different from all of the above.

When the Gurnatron says piano with reference to Haydn, he probably means the fp. But I'll wait for him to confirm or refute my statement.

[Florestan]

When the Gurnatron says piano with reference to Haydn, he probably means the fp.

I too suspect that's what he wanted to type but had instead one of the worst Freudian slips a HIP-ster could have. 

[Gurn Blanston]

Nice job, Gurn! Thank you and keep it going!

Why this difference?

Thanks.

Well, totally my bad. I bought and ripped those 2 disks about a year apart and ran into some continuity issues in the tagging. In fact, all of those are played on harpsichord, which was why I eventually opted for the more generic "keyboard".    Thanks for pointing it out, I'll fix it tonight.

[Gurn Blanston]

1749            
Hob 22_03 Missa 'rorate coeli desuper'

1750
Hob 23_01 Missa Brevis in F
Hob 23c_5a Motets of the Holy Sacrament

1751

1752                  
Hob 17_07 5 Variations in D for Keyboard

1753
Hob 02_02 Divertimento in G for String Quintet
Hob 18_02 Concerto in D for Harpsichord
Hob 18_10 Concerto in C for Organ

1754
Hob 18_05 Concerto in C for Harpsichord
Hob 18_08 Concerto in C for Organ

1755   

1756
Hob 18_01 Concerto in C for Organ            
Hob 18_06 Concerto in F for Keyboard & Violin
Hob 23b_01 Salve Regina

1757      
Hob 02_20 Divertimento in F 2 oboes, 2 Horns, 2 violins, 2 violas and bass   
Hob 03_01 Divertimento in Bb for Strings Op 1 #1                  
Hob 03_02 Divertimento in Eb for Strings Op 1 #2                  
Hob 03_03 Divertimento in D for Strings Op 1 #3                  
Hob 03_04 Divertimento in G for Strings Op 1 #4
Hob 15_01 Trio in g for Keyboard & Strings                  
Hob 15_37 Trio in F for Keyboard & Strings                  
Hob 15_41 Trio in G for Keyboard & Strings                  
Hob 15_C1 Trio in C for Keyboard & Strings

1758      
Hob 01_001 Symphony in D                  
Hob 01_037 Symphony in C         
Hob 02_18 Divertimento in D for Wind Sextet            
Hob 03_05 Divertimento in Eb for Strings Op 1 #5 Op 0                  
Hob 03_06 Divertimento in C for Strings Op 1 #6                  
Hob 03_07 Divertimento in A for Strings Op 2 #1

1759   
Hob 01_107 Symphony "A" in Bb      
Hob 02_11 Divertimento in C for Winds & Strings
Hob 02_D5 Notturno for 2 Flutes & 2 Horns               
Hob 03_08 Divertimento in E for Strings Op 2 #2                  
Hob 03_10 Divertimento in F for Strings Op 2 #4                  
Hob 03_12 Divertimento in Bb for Strings Op 2 #6
Hob 15_34 Trio in E for Piano & Strings                  
Hob 15_35 Trio in A for Piano & Strings

Some interesting points about the early works. His first complete work was a mass. When we get there, we will see that his last complete work was a mass also, the Harmoniemesse. In a rut, apparently...

Here, you also find the majority of his keyboard concerti. Some were plainly written for organ (Hob 18_01, for example) but others could have been for harpsichord equally well.

The other keyboard works, accompanied sonatas and variations, are harpsichord works. Even though there were some very early Hammerflügel and their relatives around Vienna at the time, there is no suggestion of evidence that Haydn ever saw or heard one, much less had access to one, so harpsichord is pretty much it.

By 1757-58 we see the influence of Count Morzin, his first employer. The first string quartets (divertimenti of course) date from then, and also, finally, the first symphonies. Note that Symphony #37 is actually #2, or even #1. Hoboken jumps around like a crazy monkey in the early works.

The hardest part about this is that I am very sure that there are more works that could fit in this time slot, but information is so thin that I don't even know what I don't have. Pity, really. 

Well, coming up are some years where a single year has twice the output of this entire decade!

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, here are the next 2 years. In 1760, we were still working for Count Morzin, but that was petering out rapidly. In 1761, our contract was optioned out to the Esterhazy team and all of a sudden the sky was the limit!

For those who don't know what a "Scherzando" is, don't feel badly. They are miniature 4 movement symphonies. Just like a full symphony with sonata first movement, minuet in its place etc. but only 7-10 minutes each. This set of 6 of them are believed to be the first things that he wrote for Prince Esterhazy, and they were sort of to show what he could do.




1760
Hob 01_027 Symphony in G
Hob 01_032 Symphony in C
Hob 01_033 Symphony in C
Hob 02_01 Divertimento in G for Winds & Strings
Hob 02_15 Divertimento in F for Wind Sextet
Hob 02_16 Divertimento in F for Winds & Strings
Hob 02_22 Divertimento in D for 2 Horns & Strings
Hob 14_03 Concertino in C for Keyboard
Hob 14_07 Divertimento in C for Keyboard
Hob 14_09 Divertimento in F for Keyboard
Hob 14_11 Concertino in C for Keyboard
Hob 15_36 Trio in Eb for Keyboard & Strings
Hob 15_40 Trio in F for Keyboard & Strings
Hob 15_f1 Trio in f for Keyboard & Strings
Hob 16_01 Sonata #10 in C for Keyboard
Hob 16_02 Sonata #11 in Bb for Keyboard
Hob 16_03 Sonata #14 in C for Keyboard
Hob 16_04 Sonata #9 in D for Keyboard

1761
Hob 01_006 Symphony in D
Hob 01_007 Symphony in C
Hob 01_008 Symphony in G
Hob 01_108 Symphony B in Bb
Hob 02_14 Divertimento in C for 2 Clarinets & 2 Horns
Hob 02_33 Scherzando #1 in F
Hob 02_34 Scherzando #2 in C
Hob 02_35 Scherzando #3 in D
Hob 02_36 Scherzando #4 in G
Hob 02_37 Scherzando #5 in E
Hob 02_38 Scherzando #6 in A
Hob 07a_04 Concerto in G for Violin
Hob 24b_01 Aria for Soprano Costretta a piangere

[SonicMan46]

Hob 15_01 Trio in g for Keyboard & Strings                  
Hob 15_37 Trio in F for Keyboard & Strings                  
Hob 15_41 Trio in G for Keyboard & Strings                  
Hob 15_C1 Trio in C for Keyboard & Strings

1758      
Hob 01_001 Symphony in D                  
Hob 01_037 Symphony in C         
Hob 02_18 Divertimento in D for Wind Sextet            
Hob 03_05 Divertimento in Eb for Strings Op 1 #5 Op 0                  
Hob 03_06 Divertimento in C for Strings Op 1 #6                  
Hob 03_07 Divertimento in A for Strings Op 2 #1

1759   
Hob 01_107 Symphony in Bb      
Hob 02_11 Divertimento in C for Winds & Strings
Hob 02_D5 Notturno for 2 Flutes & 2 Horns               
Hob 03_08 Divertimento in E for Strings Op 2 #2                  
Hob 03_10 Divertimento in F for Strings Op 2 #4                  
Hob 03_12 Divertimento in Bb for Strings Op 2 #6
Hob 15_34 Trio in E for Piano & Strings                  
Hob 15_35 Trio in A for Piano & Strings

Gurn - great effort!  As we discussed earlier regarding those Hob. XV 'trios', abbreviations for the keyboards and strings are used in the catalog I own (New Grove bio book) - occasionally, hpd/pf or pf indicating as you and others state that either a variety of keyboard instruments could have been chosen or the fortepiano.  Looking forward to more of your posting of these works & years!  Dave 

[Opus106]

By 1757-58 we see... the first symphonies. Note that Symphony #37 is actually #2, or even #1. Hoboken jumps around like a crazy monkey in the early works.

Phew! I'm glad I caught this early. I have very little Haydn to (music file) tag right now, yet I keep shuffling between tag formats:

From <genre> in <key> [No. ,] [Op. [No. ]], Hob. / to one without the opus number.

[I even had a debate with myself whether to use Hob. #:# or Hob. #/#. I then decided on the latter since the other one would introduce yet another colon. And Hob. # No. # just won't do because it would make the tag just too damn long!]

As for the symphonies, I have 21 of them, starting at No. 41 and ending up at 90 (the Weil/Tafelmusik box). I decided that only the Hoboken number would do and stuck to tagging them as Symphony in <key>, Hob. I/#. Doesn't that look nice? But now that has to change, to make way for a more consistent system when I get the early symphonies.

[Gurn Blanston]

Gurn - great effort!  As we discussed earlier regarding those Hob. XV 'trios', abbreviations for the keyboards and strings are used in the catalog I own (New Grove bio book) - occasionally, hpd/pf or pf indicating as you and others state that either a variety of keyboard instruments could have been chosen or the fortepiano.  Looking forward to more of your posting of these works & years!  Dave 

Thanks, Dave. I was sort of torn on how to represent the keyboard. In reality what I should have done with all of them is used "Klavier", since that means keyboard generically, and was the term of the day. But the listing is made up from my actual flac & MP3 file names, and when I did them originally I started to use the actual instrument in the recording, and then I thoughtlessly backed off to just "keyboard". Well, never too late to improve.

I am moving slowly because I am still getting new disks nearly every day. Yesterday I got 4 operas, so ripping is a big job. And I have a couple other cantatas on the way too, so it is an ongoing process.

[Gurn Blanston]

Phew! I'm glad I caught this early. I have very little Haydn to (music file) tag right now, yet I keep shuffling between tag formats:

From <genre> in <key> [No. ,] [Op. [No. ]], Hob. / to one without the opus number.

[I even had a debate with myself whether to use Hob. #:# or Hob. #/#. I then decided on the latter since the other one would introduce yet another colon. And Hob. # No. # just won't do because it would make the tag just too damn long!]

As for the symphonies, I have 21 of them, starting at No. 41 and ending up at 90 (the Weil/Tafelmusik box). I decided that only the Hoboken number would do and stuck to tagging them as Symphony in <key>, Hob. I/#. Doesn't that look nice? But now that has to change, to make way for a more consistent system when I get the early symphonies.

Navneeth,
I actually spent a year thinking about how to tag and organize these things. I'm tellin' ya, Haydn'll drive you crazy!  

I dumped the Roman numerals so that I could have things automatically organize numerically. I dumped the colon (which I loved) in favor of the underscore because it is an illegal character and tagging software automatically changes it anyway when you create the file name from the tag.

With the symphonies, I ended up dropping any hint of a "Symphony #XX" because even the best system (Robbins-Landon) doesn't work out right. And when you look at the 3 symphonies of 1760 and find 27, 32 & 33, and then 1761 becomes 6, 7, 8 & 108, well, obviously Hoboken is out too.

I won't claim that every single item on this list is 100% accurate, but based on a heck of a lot of research I will say it is the best I can make it, barring personal errors which I am correcting as I find them. So please, make use of anything that's useful, toss out anything that isn't.

[karlhenning]

. . . I'm tellin' ya, Haydn'll drive you crazy!

I knew it! ; )

[Opus106]

I dumped the Roman numerals so that I could have things automatically organize numerically. I dumped the colon (which I loved) in favor of the underscore because it is an illegal character and tagging software automatically changes it anyway when you create the file name from the tag.

Ooh, good idea to drop the Roman numerals! As for these guys ::::, I'd like to use them too -- it looks neat. But then, immediately after that follows ': Movt#. Tempo marking.'

Oh, and I actually use this for the Title tag; I really don't care what the file's name is.

With the symphonies, I ended up dropping any hint of a "Symphony #XX" because even the best system (Robbins-Landon) doesn't work out right. And when you look at the 3 symphonies of 1760 and find 27, 32 & 33, and then 1761 becomes 6, 7, 8 & 108, well, obviously Hoboken is out too.

I simply can't wait to get my hands on a cycle and start tagging them!

based on a heck of a lot of research I will say it is the best I can make it, barring personal errors which I am correcting as I find them. So please, make use of anything that's useful, toss out anything that isn't.

And I'm thankful for that.

[Gurn Blanston]

I knew it! ; )

(Of course, so will Henning... just sayin').