Haydn's Haus

[SonicMan46]

Just starting listening to the 3-CD set of Staier doing the Sonatas & Variations on fortepianos (two different instruments rebuilt in the 1980s after originals from the early 1790s) - enjoying these performances (although I already own three 'complete' versions of these works, two on period instruments) - but was somewhat annoyed by a review on MusicWeb by Michael Cookson - I completely disagree w/ his comments on the instruments used?  Although he claims to love 'period' instruments, I don't think that he is a fan of the fortepiano - I can't believe that Staier would play on an instrument that did not reflect his ideal of doing these works on a piano of the times - would enjoy any thoughts from others - thanks!  Dave - 
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[Gurn Blanston]

Just starting listening to the 3-CD set of Staier doing the Sonatas & Variations on fortepianos (two different instruments rebuilt in the 1980s after originals from the early 1790s) - enjoying these performances (although I already own three 'complete' versions of these works, two on period instruments) - but was somewhat annoyed by a review on MusicWeb by Michael Cookson - I completely disagree w/ his comments on the instruments used?  Although he claims to love 'period' instruments, I don't think that he is a fan of the fortepiano - I can't believe that Staier would play on an instrument that did not reflect his ideal of doing these works on a piano of the times - would enjoy any thoughts from others - thanks!  Dave - 
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  IOW: "I love the fortepiano, especially when it sounds just like a modern grand piano..."   

Um, duh! Well, no matter. The question, Dave, is what do YOU think of it? Personally I think they are fine sounding instruments, not even requiring the tag "an acquired taste". I definitely have some in that category, so I know the difference. As do we all, I suspect.

You like what you've heard so far? I am quite keen on those disks, always been a Staier fan.




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Listening to:
L'Estro Armonico / Solomons - Hob 01 058 Symphony in F 2nd mvmt - Andante

[SonicMan46]

  IOW: "I love the fortepiano, especially when it sounds just like a modern grand piano..."   

Um, duh! Well, no matter. The question, Dave, is what do YOU think of it? Personally I think they are fine sounding instruments, not even requiring the tag "an acquired taste". I definitely have some in that category, so I know the difference. As do we all, I suspect.

You like what you've heard so far? I am quite keen on those disks, always been a Staier fan.

Good evening Gurn - of course, you know that I love the fortepiano (obviously, a good instrument recorded well!) - so far, I'm certainly enjoying the Staier recordings - I was just annoyed by the review of a person who obviously does not like the instrument - now, I don't know this particular reviewer's usual comments, so was more curious if he is reflecting his own dislike or giving an 'honest' opinion - my feeling is the former?  Dave 

[Gurn Blanston]

Good evening Gurn - of course, you know that I love the fortepiano (obviously, a good instrument recorded well!) - so far, I'm certainly enjoying the Staier recordings - I was just annoyed by the review of a person who obviously does not like the instrument - now, I don't know this particular reviewer's usual comments, so was more curious if he is reflecting his own dislike or giving an 'honest' opinion - my feeling is the former?  Dave 

Oh yes, quite agree with that. Clearly the former. Where I chuckle, Dave, is that whenever anyone states their dislike for a particular period instrument sound, they nearly always preface it with something along the lines of "I love period instruments, but...".   Either you like it or you don't. Of course I know that you like it, you are a stalwart companion on that road. In fact, you like a heck of a lot of stuff that I don't care for, so I can but admire the breadth of your taste.



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Listening to:
L'Estro Armonico / Solomons - Hob 01 059 Symphony in A 1st mvmt - Presto

[mc ukrneal]

Oh yes, quite agree with that. Clearly the former. Where I chuckle, Dave, is that whenever anyone states their dislike for a particular period instrument sound, they nearly always preface it with something along the lines of "I love period instruments, but...".   Either you like it or you don't. Of course I know that you like it, you are a stalwart companion on that road. In fact, you like a heck of a lot of stuff that I don't care for, so I can but admire the breadth of your taste.

I think that saying 'You like it or you don't' is not nuanced enough (at least for me). If one takes the reviewer at his word, he likes period performances, but feels one of the weakest instruments is the fortepiano. I can't evaluate his honesty, but assume he is being honest for the sake of argument. Still. I dislike when a reviewer takes a biased position even if it agrees with my position (which is what apears to be happening here, as he openly admits a bias against the sound - indidentally, if he had just left the first statement in the first paragraph, he would have been ok as it is a sensible recomendation for any disc). Then again, word smithing the discussion of the sound produced is a tricky business and can rub people the wrong way (don't I know it!  )

But having said that, and this is coming from a person who prefers modern instruments, I can sometimes enjoy period instruments. The keys are: 1) The quality of the intonation, 2) The quality of the sound produced (which covers all the rest). After that, there are the usual questions on style, energy, dynamics, etc. If the sound produced convinces on those two factors, I would consider buying it (yes, even fortepiano, although most of them will fail on one of those two factors for my taste). I recently bought a period performance (Handel) that seems to solve those two issues above as well as providing a good performance (and it even includes the dreaded harpsichord!  ). We'll see.

[sTisTi]

Another super cheap Haydn keyboard sonatas set (piano) has surfaced, 9 CDs for 13 euros........check some samples, sounds very good to me. (USA buyers beware of high JPC shipping costs)

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Joseph-Haydn-S%E4mtliche-Klaviersonaten-Vol-1-3/hnum/3567959

Anyone have this by chance......hard to go wrong at that price

I have that box, it's great and it would really be madness not to buy it for 13 EUR...

While we're at it, maybe another interesting offer (I don't own it yet) at jpc? DECCA 10 CD box of Haydn's sacred works for 15 EUR:
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Joseph-Haydn-Die-gro%DFen-geistlichen-Werke/hnum/3537193

[DavidW]

I agree with uknreal, like it or not is just too black and white.  I don't see why one has to like all period instruments, looks like Cookson happens to like all but the fortepiano which he considers an abomination.

The truth to the matter is that the fortepiano sound is variable and a blanket these sound awful is not cool since they vary from almost harpischord sound to almost modern piano sound.  I thought the Walter was closer to the latter, so I'm not sure why Cookson hated the sound that much much but still...

There seem to be many that are allergic to the sound of the fortepiano, so it did behoove Cookson to mention it.  There certainly would be people reading the review who wouldn't know it was PI from the cover.  Staier's recent recordings have been on the front page of itunes, so there are more prospective buyers than there are in the know forumites, many of which might not know that they were not piano recordings.

[Gurn Blanston]

I agree with uknreal, like it or not is just too black and white.  I don't see why one has to like all period instruments, looks like Cookson happens to like all but the fortepiano which he considers an abomination.

The truth to the matter is that the fortepiano sound is variable and a blanket these sound awful is not cool since they vary from almost harpischord sound to almost modern piano sound.  I thought the Walter was closer to the latter, so I'm not sure why Cookson hated the sound that much much but still...

There seem to be many that are allergic to the sound of the fortepiano, so it did behoove Cookson to mention it.  There certainly would be people reading the review who wouldn't know it was PI from the cover.  Staier's recent recordings have been on the front page of itunes, so there are more prospective buyers than there are in the know forumites, many of which might not know that they were not piano recordings.

Yes, but the entire basis of Dave's complaint (as I understand it) and of my reply to him is that Staier's fortepiano is so totally inoffensive that warning people off from it verges on idiocy. Now, if the same had been written about John Khouri's fortepiano in Hummel or Clementi, or Alexei Lubimov's in the first Beethoven disk, then I would have completely agreed, in fact, I would have said "only seasoned fortepiano lovers need apply". However, one can scarcely say the same about Staier's. Or even close. In addition, there are other features of fortepiano playing than the sound, I would enjoy for once to read a review by someone who could talk intelligently about how the pianist was able to take the trills effortlessly which he/she couldn't have done on a modern piano. It's like OK, they sound different. Get over it. Concentrate on some other aspect.



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Listening to:
Orchestra of the 18th Century \ Brüggen - Lvb Op 125 Symphony in d 2nd mvmt - Molto vivace

[DavidRoss]

I don't see why one has to like all period instruments, looks like Cookson happens to like all but the fortepiano which he considers an abomination.

The truth to the matter is that the fortepiano sound is variable and a blanket these sound awful is not cool since they vary from almost harpischord sound to almost modern piano sound.

Agree.  My introduction to fortepiano was with one of those thin, tinny instruments that sounds like the bastard offspring of a modern piano and one of Beecham's harpsichords.  I'm not sure I've ever fully overcome that prejudice, but in trying to keep an open mind I've kept listening...and recordings I've heard recently by both Staier and Brautigam may have done the trick.  Listen, for instance, to this Staier Mozart sonata sample on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HADtL7a6wxg

[DavidW]

That youtube link does sound charming Dave.  He really lets the music breath, so it sounds effortless and enchanting.

[DarkAngel]

Just a reminder to those buying the Staier sonatas.......there is an excellent CD with 3 Haydn concertos equally as brilliant, in case you have any doubts listen to Staier take flight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVjY4QQzCJw&feature=PlayList&p=D3E78CC038EDF509&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=2

[Bulldog]

Oh yes, quite agree with that. Clearly the former. Where I chuckle, Dave, is that whenever anyone states their dislike for a particular period instrument sound, they nearly always preface it with something along the lines of "I love period instruments, but...".   Either you like it or you don't. Of course I know that you like it, you are a stalwart companion on that road. In fact, you like a heck of a lot of stuff that I don't care for, so I can but admire the breadth of your taste.



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Listening to:
L'Estro Armonico / Solomons - Hob 01 059 Symphony in A 1st mvmt - Presto

You're right on target.  Cookson's own words tell us that he does not appreciate the fortepiano.  With that in mind, his review is a waste of time for those who do fully appreciate the instrument.

[DarkAngel]

I have that box, it's great and it would really be madness not to buy it for 13 EUR...

Took my own advice and placed order a few days ago......even though shipping to USA cost more than CDs did, samples sound better than my Jando/Naxos piano set, will report my findings

[Antoine Marchand]

Now, if the same had been written about John Khouri's fortepiano in Hummel or Clementi, or Alexei Lubimov's in the first Beethoven disk, then I would have completely agreed, in fact, I would have said "only seasoned fortepiano lovers need apply".

Well, additionally both of them are interesting and sensible fortepianists, Gurn; although I would say that  John Khouri is rather (unfairly) unknown. I don't have that Beethoven by Lubimov, but I have collected almost every disc by John Khouri and he deserves a lot of credit not only as a performer, but also as a scholar (his liner notes and historical investigation are excellent). My last purchase was his 3-CD set with the complete sonatas for solo piano by Anton Eberl (Music & Arts), where several pieces are played on a pedal piano! One or two critics -maybe nobody else has listened to these discs - have also claimed for a stabler and robust instruments; apparently the Steinway D concert grand is hard to forget. 

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, additionally both of them are interesting and sensible fortepianists, Gurn; although I would say that  John Khouri is rather (unfairly) unknown. I don't have that Beethoven by Lubimov, but I have collected almost every disc by John Khouri and he deserves a lot of credit not only as a performer, but also as a scholar (his liner notes and historical investigation are excellent). My last purchase was his 3-CD set with the complete sonatas for solo piano by Anton Eberl (Music & Arts), where several pieces are played on a pedal piano! One or two critics -maybe nobody else has listened to these discs - have also claimed for a stabler and robust instruments; apparently the Steinway D concert grand is hard to forget. 

Ooh, I'd like that (the Eberl), haven't seen it yet, but will.  Anyway, I completely agree with you, Khouri is a very interesting fortepianist, and I am delighted to have those of his disks that I do have. But you will admit, I'm sure, that his pianos are not making any compromise in the way of trying to sound modern or mainstream, or whatever it is that lovers of modern pianos find conciliatory in some fortepianos. And the music is better for it, IMO. But meanwhile he will be unjustly obscure. So it goes.

Lubimov uses an original 1806 Broadwood in his disk with Op 13, 27 #2 & 53 on it (Erato 4509-94356-2). It is another case of an instrument that makes no compromises towards modern tastes. Lubimov is a heckuva player though and this is a nice disk. Anyway, this is all off the track of Haydn, but stuff happens.



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Listening to:
Orchestra of the 18th Century / Brüggen - LvB Op 055 Symphony #3 in Eb 2nd mvmt - Marcia funebre: Adagio assai

[Gurn Blanston]

You're right on target.  Cookson's own words tell us that he does not appreciate the fortepiano.  With that in mind, his review is a waste of time for those who do fully appreciate the instrument.

Thanks, Don, for summing up what I was wanting to say but struggling with, apparently. I guess I would rather aim at critics in general than anti-PIons in particular: if you don't like something generically, then why do you bother critiquing it for those who do? It would be like me writing criticism of Stockhausen...

[Antoine Marchand]

Ooh, I'd like that (the Eberl), haven't seen it yet, but will.  Anyway, I completely agree with you, Khouri is a very interesting fortepianist, and I am delighted to have those of his disks that I do have. But you will admit, I'm sure, that his pianos are not making any compromise in the way of trying to sound modern or mainstream, or whatever it is that lovers of modern pianos find conciliatory in some fortepianos. And the music is better for it, IMO. But meanwhile he will be unjustly obscure. So it goes.

I totally agree about Khouri. He is a hard-HIPster.

Lubimov uses an original 1806 Broadwood in his disk with Op 13, 27 #2 & 53 on it (Erato 4509-94356-2). It is another case of an instrument that makes no compromises towards modern tastes. Lubimov is a heckuva player though and this is a nice disk. Anyway, this is all off the track of Haydn, but stuff happens.

It's also -to some degree- the case with his Mozart piano sonatas; one of my favorite cycles. 

Coming back to the topic: What do you think about Carole Cerasi? Talking about the instruments, I loved that clavichord. 

[Antoine Marchand]

... if you don't like something generically, then why do you bother critiquing it for those who do? It would be like me writing criticism of Stockhausen...

I would say two or three things about Mahler... 

[SonicMan46]

Well, what an abundance of responses to the Staier review on MusicWeb - thanks all!   

Having been a subscriber to Fanfare & American Record Guide the last few years, I've just found that sometimes CDs are sent to reviewers who obviously may not like the music and/or the instrumentation, and if I sense this ambivalence, trying to read 'between the lines' is not always easy; and trying to decide if such a review is 'positive', 'negative', or 'well, not sure' can be frustrating, esp. in deciding on a purchase - I just did not think that Cookson's review left the reader (particularly one not too familiar w/ a fortepiano) w/ enough of a definite opinion on trying to decide to buy the recording - Dave 

[Gurn Blanston]

Coming back to the topic: What do you think about Carole Cerasi? Talking about the instruments, I loved that clavichord. 

I have listened to the clavichord sonata several times now and am very pleased with it. She has a lighter touch than Adlam, for example, and brings out a lot of the feeling in that piece. I haven't listened to the fortepiano sonatas yet...   (but I will!)