Haydn's Haus

[SonicMan46]

The Klöcker set is another fine box of entertainment. It has the pathological defect of having virtually none of the works actually being by Haydn, but I don't let that stop me enjoying it, nor should anyone else. The Huss box pictured there has only works that are verifiable as by Haydn. So many nice things are left off. But some things that show up are real rarities, like that "String Quintet" I mentioned, which this is the only extant recording of it, and Hob 14_01 which is the only one of those works for keyboard, 2 violins and bass that has 2 horns added in. It is an expensive little box, but I recommend it wholeheartedly to one and all. Damn, it is very nice!

Gurn - unclear from the limited liner notes by Klocker on that box regarding the authenticity of the works, but just curious how many are like wrongly attributed to him?  At any rate I had a $50 Amazon Gift Certificate sitting on the table next to my den chair (and getting itchy to use it!) - so, put in an order for the Huss box you recommended and also the book by Daniel Heartz Mozart, Haydn and Early Beethoven: 1781-1802, which I've been contemplating for quite a while - feel like I'm getting both for half price!     Dave

[Gurn Blanston]

Gurn - unclear from the limited liner notes by Klocker on that box regarding the authenticity of the works, but just curious how many are like wrongly attributed to him?  At any rate I had a $50 Amazon Gift Certificate sitting on the table next to my den chair (and getting itchy to use it!) - so, put in an order for the Huss box you recommended and also the book by Daniel Heartz Mozart, Haydn and Early Beethoven: 1781-1802, which I've been contemplating for quite a while - feel like I'm getting both for half price!     Dave

Dave,
Well, it is an unfortunate fact that Hoboken II is just loaded with "add-ons". Hoboken was faced with the fact that over the years practically every divertimento ever written was attributed to Haydn at one time or another. Rather than list things out, let me approach it the easy way.

Attributions are handled by Hoboken like this. He puts the Roman for the section, and then he does like this;  Hob II:3. This is a normal regular section work, in this case a divertimento in G for 2 Oboes, 2 Horns and 2 Bassoons from 1758. OK, well if it was merely attributed to Haydn, it would look like this; Hob II:G7  This would be a divertimento for 4 or more instruments also, but the second part would be saying this; "this is the 7th work of this class that I've cataloged in G major".

OK, now that is cleared up, there are only 2 works in Hob II that have been authenticated since Hoboken wrote the catalog. They are D22 and G1. D22, can you believe that?    Anyway, now if you look at Klocker, you can automatically exclude all the works in that category.

Now for the ones in the main part of Hob II. The only ones verified as authentic are 1, 2, 3, 6 has been moved to Hob III, 7, 8, 9, 11, 14-17 and 20-24. Then 25-32 are the notturnos, and 33-38 are the scherzandos. And that's it. The feldparthie in the 40's are not by Haydn (despite Brahms' best hopes).

And finally the Deest ("doesn't appear in") items. Who knows? Maybe yes, maybe no.

Still, this totally doesn't mean that we shouldn't listen to them and enjoy them too. I certainly do. I think people that used to like certain music before they found out that someone else wrote it are rather hurting themselves more than anything else.

Great about that book. I am now on page 500. What a monster! And I really think you will like that box set too.

[Leon]

Some Haydn that is a bit off the beaten track, at least for me, that I have recently acquired and enjoyed very much:

[asin]B000004437[/asin]

[asin]B00000443H[/asin]

[asin]B0000057DU[/asin]

[Gurn Blanston]

Yes, those are some disks that I have looked at for a long time but not picked up yet. All of the Hoboken 4 (IV) stuff is the real deal, and no doubt wonderfully played. It's nice music in any case, and a great group of players.

The Hob II pieces are a perfect illustration of the discussion in the previous posts. They are nice works and well worth listening to. Only if it makes a difference to you should it be mentioned that they are probably not by Haydn. It is highly likely that I will get them anyway....   

[TheGSMoeller]

Some Haydn that is a bit off the beaten track, at least for me, that I have recently acquired and enjoyed very much:

[asin]B0000057DU[/asin]

That is a great disc, especially the Harpsichord Concerto with Pinnock at the keys.
Another gold star from my collection with only duplicate is the Trumpet Concerto...

[asin]B000006MB8[/asin]

[Elgarian]

Oh my. Leo, where are you?

My copy of the Queyras cello concertos arrived yesterday, and I can't get it out out of the player, just listening to the 1st concerto over and over.

These guys take this music and fly. It doesn't sound like music through speakers. It sounds like they're in the room - hands and arms flying, bow slapping and crunching on gut. The third movement is particularly exhilarating ... no, wait: 'exhilarating' is too posh. It's raw, it's in yer face, it's eighteenth-century rock&roll, mid-50s Elvis, Beatles first album kind of raw. Precise, in its way, and by no means uncontrolled, yet giving the impression of being always on the edge of wild abandon.

My only reservation (and it may fade with more listening) is that they don't quite get the second movement as exquisite as I think I'd like. Now the problem here is that my only point of comparison is du Pre/Barbirolli - a million miles from HIPdom, it's true, but even so when du Pre plays that second movement I hear the music bleed. Of course that may not be right: it may be a du Pre extravagance. I don't know. Maybe someone will tell me.

But set that aside; this cello concerto recording just blows my furniture out of the room. It's not possible to have it playing and do anything else but listen to it. And punch the air. And dance - yes, dance - feet tapping, eyes closed, bopping all over the carpet.

Leo, I salute you, Sir. Rock on.

[Gurn Blanston]

Oh my. Leo, where are you?

My copy of the Queyras cello concertos arrived yesterday, and I can't get it out out of the player, just listening to the 1st concerto over and over.

These guys take this music and fly. It doesn't sound like music through speakers. It sounds like they're in the room - hands and arms flying, bow slapping and crunching on gut. The third movement is particularly exhilarating ... no, wait: 'exhilarating' is too posh. It's raw, it's in yer face, it's eighteenth-century rock&roll, mid-50s Elvis, Beatles first album kind of raw. Precise, in its way, and by no means uncontrolled, yet giving the impression of being always on the edge of wild abandon.

My only reservation (and it may fade with more listening) is that they don't quite get the second movement as exquisite as I think I'd like. Now the problem here is that my only point of comparison is du Pre/Barbirolli - a million miles from HIPdom, it's true, but even so when du Pre plays that second movement I hear the music bleed. Of course that may not be right: it may be a du Pre extravagance. I don't know. Maybe someone will tell me.

But set that aside; this cello concerto recording just blows my furniture out of the room. It's not possible to have it playing and do anything else but listen to it. And punch the air. And dance - yes, dance - feet tapping, eyes closed, bopping all over the carpet.

Leo, I salute you, Sir. Rock on.

So you like it then?   0:)

If you want something to compare to it that's not big band post-romantic, this is a good choice. Sorry Amazon's picture sucks so badly;

[asin]B000001TVM[/asin]

Tafelmusik/Bylsma is delightful. As is this one, of Le Petite Bande / Suzuki;

[asin]B0000665YH[/asin]

They are well contrasted with each other too. IMO, Bylsma is more like a solo concerto with a band, while Suzuki is more like a nice chamber work with a soloist leading the way. 2 very interesting interpretations.

But only if you were looking for a contrast.... 

[Elgarian]

So you like it then?

Well, the one thing I couldn't call it is 'quite nice'.

Thanks for the alternative suggestions Gurn. I could easily imagine collecting several versions of this, now. But I can't imagine anything beating this for sheer bum-smacking, gut-thumping scrunchification. (This is one of those occasions where you just have to resort to technical language, I'm afraid.)

Footnote 1: Just discovered I've been misreading the small print on my du Pre box set for years. Her recording of the 1st concerto (see my post above) is with Barenboim, not Barbirolli. (Her no.2 is with Barbirolli.) It's still not rock and roll though.

Footnote 2: The Suzuki is as cheap as chips on Amazon UK, so I've ordered one.

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, the one thing I couldn't call it is 'quite nice'.

Must be even better than I remember then! I'm not a fan of 'nice'.

Thanks for the alternative suggestions Gurn. I could easily imagine collecting several versions of this, now. But I can't imagine anything beating this for sheer bum-smacking, gut-thumping scrunchification. (This is one of those occasions where you just have to resort to technical language, I'm afraid.)

Footnote 1: Just discovered I've been misreading the small print on my du Pre box set for years. Her recording of the 1st concerto (see my post above) is with Barenboim, not Barbirolli. (Her no.2 is with Barbirolli.) It's still not rock and roll though.

Footnote 2: The Suzuki is as cheap as chips on Amazon UK, so I've ordered one.

I recall liking that version, although it was many years ago. I also liked Rostropovich you know. I thought the English Chamber Orchestra was nicely restrained in that effort. But then, I used to be rather fonder of Romanticized versions than I am now.

I think you will like the Suzuki. He is a lovely player, and the orchestra sounds like a small chamber group. It makes a nice effect. It is rather the same style that is adopted in the horn concerto by L'Archibudelli/Koster that we discussed a couple of posts ago. Given that the 2 works were composed within a year of each other, the similarity in the performance styles is wonderful to hear. Like being in the Prince's salon.

[Gurn Blanston]

Part 5

1756

So now we are starting to get down to some music we know. Haydn is working 16-18 hours a day, giving lessons, accompanying the voice students of Porpora as they practiced, and starting the early mornings with organ playing at masses about town. And studying composition, it must be remembered. It was around this time that he discovered CPE Bach. According to Griesinger; "About this time Haydn came upon the first six sonatas of Emanuel Bach; 'I did not leave my clavier until I had played them through, and whoever knows me thoroughly must discover that I owe a great deal to Emanuel Bach, that I understood him and studied him with diligence. Emanuel Bach once paid me a compliment on that score himself'.

One of the influences on Haydn at this time, and in ways that are both subtle and very deep, was with Joseph Felix von Kurz, a well-known comic actor (under the stage-name Bernardon) and minor impresario active at the Kärntnertortheater, for whom Haydn supplied music to Der krumme Teufel (The Crooked Devil), a comedy of the Hanswurst type. It was apparently given its première in the 1751–2 season and revived in May 1753, with considerable success. Neither libretto nor music of this, his earliest stage work, survives; a libretto does survive for a later version of 1759, often called Der neue krumme Teufel, but, again, there is no music. It has been speculated that many anonymous numbers in contemporary Viennese collections of theatrical songs stem from this work or others that Haydn might have composed, although documentation is lacking. In other sources, Haydn speaks at length about Kurz. He observed him practicing before a mirror one day, and this led to long discussions about the nature of comedy in performance. Despite the fact that this period of Haydn's life is frequently sped through, and Kurz is mentioned only because of the lost music to The Crooked Devil, I believe that it would be very fruitful to investigate and analyze the roots of Haydn's comedy and how they were fed early on by Kurz. Another project for my list.

1756 also saw the expansion of Haydn's contacts into very nice business opportunities. Griesinger tells us;  "At first Haydn received only two gulden a month for giving lessons, but gradually the price rose to five gulden, so that he was able to look about for more suitable quarters. While he was living in the Seilerstätte, all his few possessions were stolen ... Haydn soon saw his loss made good by the generosity of good friends ... [he] recovered through a stay of two months with Baron Fürnberg, which cost him nothing."

A 150% increase in fees has to be a good thing by anyone's standards. Not only more immediate income, but probably more advertising by happy patrons. And indeed, his list of contacts shows now some nobility as well as musicians. The most important figure was Baron Carl Joseph Fürnberg (1720–67), who employed him as music master to his children (he lived near the Seilerstätte), (and later on  (after 1756, that is)) commissioned his first string quartets and eventually recommended him to Morzin. Important as well was the elder Countess Maria Christine Thun, who (according to Framery) took singing and keyboard lessons from Haydn.

So it is starting to look pretty good now for Haydn. In fact, he is so busy it is hard to see how he was able to keep up! In addition to the lessons, he was still playing and/or singing in at least three churches every day! And making music with his friends, like Karl Ditters, with whom he went out serenading (gassatim which gives us the root word for Cassation) in the evenings for money. And finally, he wrote some music which has survived.

Here is the music of 1756;

Hob 02_G1 Divertimento in G for 2 Oboes, 2 Horns, 2 Violins, 2 Violas & Basso
Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss



Hob 16_16 Sonata in Eb for Keyboard  (Cembalo)
Christine Schornsheim



Hob 18_01 Concerto in C for Organ   
New Dusseldorf Hofmusik / Utiger   Christine Schornsheim



Hob 18_06 Concerto in F for Cembalo & Violin   
Accademia Bizantina / Dantone  Montanari (Violin) / Dantone (Cembalo)
Hob 18_06 Concerto in F for Organ & Violin   
Divertimento Salzburg / Haselböck


Hob 23b_01 Salve Regina   
Hob 23b_03 Ave Regina   
Tafelmusik / Bruno Weil



OK, a quick Hoboken lesson since this is our first 'add-on'. The lovely Divertimento in G for 9 instruments, Hob II:G1. At the time that Hoboken wrote up the divertimentos for 4 or more instruments, he was aware of the existence of this work. However, he didn't know if it was actually by Haydn or merely an attribution, so instead of a 'normal' Hoboken number, he called it Hob II (the right group that it belongs to) and then gave it the second part "G1", which means that it is the first work on the list in G major. There is a cottage industry in divertimentos in D major, I think that the highest number I've seen is in the 30's. But the only one proven genuine is D22!  So, since we will see numbers of this type again, now we know what it means.

We turn yet again to Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss for their rendition of this large divertimento. Their playing is faultless as always, and this large orchestral work is right down the middle of their field. Yet again I urge you to check this disk out. The original incarnation of it, on Koch/Schwann went OOP very early on, and it was selling for $100-200/disk for each of the 4 or 5 available disks. BIS did us all a huge service in buying up the rights and reissuing the entire set.

Once again we also turn to Christine Schornsheim for this year's sonata, the one in Eb. It is a common trait of several of the early keyboard works that they only exist in one copy with Haydn's name on it, and many of them are quite individual in their expression. As a result, many experts, who of course tend towards conservatism, want to have a picture (a painting would do, but a photo would be better) of Haydn actually writing the notes. And why not? There have been many mistakes made in the past, and caution is warranted. However, the logic behind forging Haydn's name on works that are clearly early, and probably intended for his students to play, doesn't really make sense. In any case, Schornsheim and Oort are the only two who have recorded this pleasant little piece. Since Oort uses a fortepiano (and very nicely, I must say) and Schornsheim a cembalo, I give her the nod here.

Hob. 18:01 is the only keyboard concerto for which there is a dated, autograph manuscript. He is believed to have written it for the church service in which his first love, Therese Keller, took the veil (became a nun, for us heathens). The parallels with Mozart are stunning; fell in love with a lady, lost her, married her sister. Fortunately, Mozart's marriage was a happy one. Haydn went on in later years to call his wife 'The Infernal Beast'.    In any case, this is a broad, rich work, unlike the leaner early concerti. Schornsheim and the Dusseldorfer's do a very nice job with this work, so a perfect time to turn to them yet again.

Hob 18:06, the double concerto, was likely written for church service too, which is why it is equally well performed using either a harpsichord (for which it was eventually published) or the organ (which the earliest surviving parts appear to be written). Chances are very good that this is the first piece that we have covered so far that most of us have heard before. Both of these versions do it good justice. Montanari & Dantone have replaced my earlier recommendation of Koopman, I do like their rendition a lot. They play it in the more Italianate style, lighter and perhaps a bit fleeter too. And Haselböck's version is as good as ever, certainly has an entirely different feel with the organ than the cembalo.

Finally, we turn back to some sacred music, not a mass yet, but some adjunct things, a Salve Regina and an Ave Regina. Tafelmusik / Weil do their standard excellent job with these 2 works for soprano, chorus and strings.

Hope that this interested you enough to want to hear some of these early works. Sometimes taking the plunge takes a bit of effort, but perhaps it will be a new avenue for you.

[kishnevi]

Yes, those are some disks that I have looked at for a long time but not picked up yet. All of the Hoboken 4 (IV) stuff is the real deal, and no doubt wonderfully played. It's nice music in any case, and a great group of players.

The Hob II pieces are a perfect illustration of the discussion in the previous posts. They are nice works and well worth listening to. Only if it makes a difference to you should it be mentioned that they are probably not by Haydn. It is highly likely that I will get them anyway....   

So this is the real deal:

which arrived today from Arkivmusic as part of an order otherwise devoted to Wolf-Ferrari concertos and Onslow chamber music.  I'll probably be listening to it tomorrow.  The trio is apparently a baryton trio arragned for flute trio.

[Elgarian]

I think you will like the Suzuki. He is a lovely player, and the orchestra sounds like a small chamber group. It makes a nice effect.

Not so much bum-smacking and gut-thumping, then? Maybe not so much Beatles first album, as Dylan's live acoustic set, Manchester '66....

If anyone out there is familiar with du Pre's recording, I'd really like to know if the heart-bleeding passion she injects into the slow movement is justified by Haydn's score, or if she's doing her own thing, as it were.

[Gurn Blanston]

So this is the real deal:

which arrived today from Arkivmusic as part of an order otherwise devoted to Wolf-Ferrari concertos and Onslow chamber music.  I'll probably be listening to it tomorrow.  The trio is apparently a baryton trio arragned for flute trio.

Yes, in fact that is the disk I am using right now for these works. I really like the playing, and when we get to it later on, we can talk about the music which is interesting too. I am not entirely sure who arranged the baryton trio for this combination. Chances are huge that it was someone hired by a publisher to do it. It makes an interesting sounding take on the baryton work though.

[Gurn Blanston]

Not so much bum-smacking and gut-thumping, then? Maybe not so much Beatles first album, as Dylan's live acoustic set, Manchester '66....

If anyone out there is familiar with du Pre's recording, I'd really like to know if the heart-bleeding passion she injects into the slow movement is justified by Haydn's score, or if she's doing her own thing, as it were.

Oh, don't go by my adjectives, amigo. I tend toward the usual British reserve. Rather more than some Brits I know...

As a rule of thumb in Classical works, you can figure that "heart-bleeding passion" = player / listener, not composer. It wasn't an aim of the (non-operatic) composer for another 50 years after that work was composed. 

[Gurn Blanston]

Not fair to drive me crazy, Senor Haynd...

[Elgarian]

As a rule of thumb in Classical works, you can figure that "heart-bleeding passion" = player / listener, not composer. It wasn't an aim of the (non-operatic) composer for another 50 years after that work was composed.

That's what I assumed, more or less, and I know that the historical perspective requires that. So maybe the expression 'heart-bleeding passion' is more a description of my response than of anything else; and yet ... what troubles me is this: is du Pre inventing this piercing and poignant emotion that she evokes? That is, is she manipulating the score in ways that are entirely her own? Or is the potential there in the music, and she's discovering it?

(No use me looking at the score - might as well be hieroglyphics. In fact I might do better with hieroglyphics!)

[Gurn Blanston]

That's what I assumed, more or less, and I know that the historical perspective requires that. So maybe the expression 'heart-bleeding passion' is more a description of my response than of anything else; and yet ... what troubles me is this: is du Pre inventing this piercing and poignant emotion that she evokes? That is, is she manipulating the score in ways that are entirely her own? Or is the potential there in the music, and she's discovering it?

(No use me looking at the score - might as well be hieroglyphics. In fact I might do better with hieroglyphics!)

I don't know that I would call it invention, it smacks of a negativism that possibly shouldn't be attached. She plays it as though it were a Romantic piece that is written to be heart-rending, despite that it isn't. I think that a good player can do that with any piece of music. That is the kernel of interpretation, after all. And also the real difference of what we as listeners feel is our personal taste. I think that if you polled the listeners on this board, you would probably get more (so it seems to me) who prefer Romantic playing even in Classical works, because it simply suits their personal taste. Look at the number of folks who think Böhm is the last word in Mozart symphonies. Same thing. Emotion is written into the score in rather subtler ways, oftentimes the tempo indication at the beginning means a heck of a lot more than just how fast to play it.

[SonicMan46]

Yes, those are some disks that I have looked at for a long time but not picked up yet. All of the Hoboken 4 (IV) stuff is the real deal, and no doubt wonderfully played. It's nice music in any case, and a great group of players.

The Hob II pieces are a perfect illustration of the discussion in the previous posts. They are nice works and well worth listening to. Only if it makes a difference to you should it be mentioned that they are probably not by Haydn. It is highly likely that I will get them anyway....   

Hi Gurn - not been posting much because of this inability to link my uploaded pictures, but at any rate, I've been sorting through some of my own discs regarding these earlier works & their authenticity?  For example, I have the 2 lower CDs in Arnold's post but not the one on the London Trios - as you mentioned above and in checking Amazon HERE, more than half of the listings question their composition by Haydn - still probably a great set because of the performers who I enjoy!

Now a CD that I do own stating The London Trios w/ another favorite group, i.e. Camerata Koln (and shown below) contains trios for Piano, Flute, & Cello (Hob. XV:15-17) & Trios for Two Flutes and Cello (Hob. IV:1-4) - assume that these are authentic works of Papa Joe?  And just curious where the 'Opus 5' came from?  Assume Haydn's or someone else numbering these works?  Dave

[asin]B00011MK5Q[/asin]

[Gurn Blanston]

Hi Gurn - not been posting much because of this inability to link my uploaded pictures, but at any rate, I've been sorting through some of my own discs regarding these earlier works & their authenticity?  For example, I have the 2 lower CDs in Arnold's post but not the one on the London Trios - as you mentioned above and in checking Amazon HERE, more than half of the listings question their composition by Haydn - still probably a great set because of the performers who I enjoy!

Now a CD that I do own stating The London Trios w/ another favorite group, i.e. Camerata Koln (and shown below) contains trios for Piano, Flute, & Cello (Hob. XV:15-17) & Trios for Two Flutes and Cello (Hob. IV:1-4) - assume that these are authentic works of Papa Joe?  And just curious where the 'Opus 5' came from?  Assume Haydn's or someone else numbering these works?  Dave

[asin]B00011MK5Q[/asin]

Hey, Dave,
Well, images are back now anyway, hope you saw my reply to your last, and the next installment of the saga.

Yes, that;s a fine disk, and those are definitely the real deal from Papa Joe. The Op 5 is attached by one of his publishers. I don't know that one specifically, since he had dozens of them over the years and there is no telling which ones were seized on by posterity. Possibly Artaria, although I doubt a low Op# from them at that late date. Unlike Beethoven (or Leopold Mozart), Haydn had no interest in assigning Op numbers.

[SonicMan46]

Hey, Dave,
Well, images are back now anyway, hope you saw my reply to your last, and the next installment of the saga.

Yes, that;s a fine disk, and those are definitely the real deal from Papa Joe. The Op 5 is attached by one of his publishers. I don't know that one specifically, since he had dozens of them over the years and there is no telling which ones were seized on by posterity. Possibly Artaria, although I doubt a low Op# from them at that late date. Unlike Beethoven (or Leopold Mozart), Haydn had no interest in assigning Op numbers.

Yes, I noticed others using the image icon, so just posted in the listening thread - 

But, I've been keeping up w/ this thread - concerning the Keyboard Concerti, I do have the 2-CD set w/ Schornsheim and also a single disc w/ Brautigam - do not have these works either on a modern piano (probably not interested) or a harpsichord (might be a choice for me depending on the recording - not even sure 'how many' might be available but will check!) - Dave