Haydn's Haus

[SonicMan46]

Has anyone had a go at those string trios? I am inordinately fond of those. I point out that the only one in the form that became the norm for the genre, that is, violin, viola & Baßo (cello?), was composed early times here, being #8 in Bb. All the rest were for 2 violins and Baßo. If these seem like an inordinately large number, keep in mind that this sort of music was nearly always collected into folios of 6 or 12, sometimes more. Thus the 12 string trios and the 6 (plus an odd one) keyboard trios are actually typical of the time.

Gurn - again, thanks for all of the additional information added since my last visit - Papa Haydn's early works are certainly not easy to sort out so all of us interested appreciate your efforts (presumably over the years!).

Concerning the 'String Trios', I cannot add much at all having not heard them yet - but I'll take a look on Amazon later and see what is available?  I suspect not much.  Also my book by Daniel Heartz arrived, but the time table beings w/ 1781, so I suspect there is much more on these early Haydn works in the previous two volumes.

Some new arrivals pertinent to a number of your comments - the early divertimenti discs w/ Huss arrived and doing a second listen this weekend; of course, most of these works are w/ winds and am enjoying completely!  Also decided to pick up the 2 5-disc boxes of the Haydn SQs w/ Quatuor Mosaiques; already had some of these discs but 10 CDs for about $50 on the Amazon MP - hard to resist! Dave

   

[Leo K.]

Leo,
Ah, so you are liking that Davies box. Great! One of the things that I am hoping to do here is to present the chronology a bit more clearly. I have put some of that info in here and there, but it's so hard to keep track of. I am very nearly tempted to start naming my ripped files as "Hob 01_037 Symphony #2 in C...." and see if that won't help me remember them a bit more. I wish the publishers would have some sort of a go at that, but not likely, I guess.

Interesting that your take on the early symphonies was the same as mine. I guess there is a variety of reactions to the early works. I happen to like the early works of many composers, Haydn and Mozart particularly. The people (and they are legion!) who won't listen to any Mozart below K 250 simply don't know what they are missing.

Oh yeah, I had forgotten to mention how much I've been enjoying the Davies Haydn box! The sound is particuarly good, well mastered and natural to the ear. The performances are PI influenced and I don't miss the fact these are modern instruments, as the performances are gritty, sensual and fun. Special mention to the horns! Great projections of sound!

I'm just starting to understand the Hob numbering and the naming/cataloging of the genres and that the numbering of works can now be vastly different (due to new discoveries of scholarship), but the old numbers remain for reference. This is helpful!

And YES, early Mozart is incredible!

[Elgarian]

My very first of the early symphonies was the Dorati/"London/Decca Weekend Classics" disk of "Morning, Noon and Night", symphonies 6-8. Wasn't at all sure what to expect when I popped it in, since my total Haydn symphony listening began with Paris and ended with London. But right from the first movement I felt right at home, with a familiar composer speaking a familiar language. I don't know for sure what being "Haydnesque" consists in structurally, but whatever it is, it was present from early on. At least to MY ear.

Yes, that's a good way of putting it for me too. When I started on the Goodman symphonies (I worked through roughly in chronological order) something like your sense of a familiar language was there from the start; except that it was a language that I didn't know I could get a grip on until I heard it, and then found all was surprisingly well. At home, you call it - yes, that's right. Actually I felt so at home, so comfy, that I listened to too many symphonies too fast; I need to go back and add some detail to the blurred memory.

I wholeheartedly believe that you will be very pleased with the Festetics. Your aesthetic sensibility seems congruent with my own, and I surely am.

I've now listened to a couple of the opus 20 quartets that I felt I knew reasonably well from the Mosaiques set, and I must say they're a joy. Thanks very much for pointing me in that direction. They bopped and scrunched all around the room. But I don't in the least regret the Mosaiques purchase; they do adopt more of a 'recital' mode, as you called it, but I don't detect  the least hint of sterility. I fancy they have a more ethereal approach, which convinces me with its own kind of healing validity, in between the party-on sessions that the Festetics seem to want to invite me to. I exaggerate of course, to stress my point, but you know by now that I'm prone to that, Gurn!

Further recommendations noted with thanks. I'll get there one day!

[Gurn Blanston]

Gurn - again, thanks for all of the additional information added since my last visit - Papa Haydn's early works are certainly not easy to sort out so all of us interested appreciate your efforts (presumably over the years!).

You are most welcome. Yes, I started seriously researching Haydn in 2007, so it has been a while now. Between hunting for books and hunting for music, Haydn has been the biggest challenge of my composer studies. Someone wrote recently here that Haydn was the last of the admittedly great composers to be written about. I can attest to that! 

Concerning the 'String Trios', I cannot add much at all having not heard them yet - but I'll take a look on Amazon later and see what is available?  I suspect not much.  Also my book by Daniel Heartz arrived, but the time table beings w/ 1781, so I suspect there is much more on these early Haydn works in the previous two volumes.

[asin]B000CAKZJO[/asin][asin]B000M2DJTA[/asin]

I link these 2 in Amazon. If you can't find the Camerata disks (and you won't, not all of them anyway) then these are your only other choice. It isn't like you are settling for something though, they are excellent, both music and playing. 

You're right about Heartz too. Damn, I sure would like to have volume 1 of that set. The price is outrageous for a used book though. I can't imagine the publisher never having released it in trade paper though. Big boo there, since a lot of interested parties can't really pay $300 for a book...

Some new arrivals pertinent to a number of your comments - the early divertimenti discs w/ Huss arrived and doing a second listen this weekend; of course, most of these works are w/ winds and am enjoying completely!  Also decided to pick up the 2 5-disc boxes of the Haydn SQs w/ Quatuor Mosaiques; already had some of these discs but 10 CDs for about $50 on the Amazon MP - hard to resist! Dave

I was sure you would like that box. Right up your alley after all. And some real little gems, like Hob II:22 & 23, the original '2 horn' versions of the 'string quartets' that are missing from Op 2. They sure sound better with the horns, don't they?

I have those same 2 boxes by the Mosaiques, no regrets at all (although I spent a tad more on them than you did). Even though I find them to be a shade more formal than my preference (the Festetics), nonetheless, they are beautifully done by any standard, and really show off the music well. Sort of a 'Haydnisto must-have'.




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Now playing:
La Petite Bande; Sigiswald Kuijken - Hob 01_098 Symphony in Bb 3rd mvmt - Menuetto - Trio

[Gurn Blanston]

Oh yeah, I had forgotten to mention how much I've been enjoying the Davies Haydn box! The sound is particuarly good, well mastered and natural to the ear. The performances are PI influenced and I don't miss the fact these are modern instruments, as the performances are gritty, sensual and fun. Special mention to the horns! Great projections of sound!

I'm just starting to understand the Hob numbering and the naming/cataloging of the genres and that the numbering of works can now be vastly different (due to new discoveries of scholarship), but the old numbers remain for reference. This is helpful!

And YES, early Mozart is incredible!

I inferred it from your enthusiasm, nonetheless.  

If you ever completely understand Hoboken, there is really little more you ever have to learn. You will be a black belt musicologist!    And yes, despite that I use all the new numbering systems, I have never even considered jettisoning Hoboken. More than helpful, I would call it practically mandatory. Someone, somewhere, has (or is presently) cataloged nearly every composer. I hope they learned something both good and bad from Hoboken's method. It is possible that only Telemann has a larger oeuvre to sort out. 





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Now playing:
La Petite Bande; Sigiswald Kuijken - Hob 01_098 Symphony in Bb 4th mvmt - Finale: Presto

[Gurn Blanston]

Yes, that's a good way of putting it for me too. When I started on the Goodman symphonies (I worked through roughly in chronological order) something like your sense of a familiar language was there from the start; except that it was a language that I didn't know I could get a grip on until I heard it, and then found all was surprisingly well. At home, you call it - yes, that's right. Actually I felt so at home, so comfy, that I listened to too many symphonies too fast; I need to go back and add some detail to the blurred memory.

That's perfectly OK. You have plenty of time to dwell on them too. I have listened to the entire cycle at least a dozen times, and I still hear something new every time. Actually, I like it that way. Apparently I have attention issues, despite my best efforts. So I always have something to look forward to next time 'round.

I've now listened to a couple of the opus 20 quartets that I felt I knew reasonably well from the Mosaiques set, and I must say they're a joy. Thanks very much for pointing me in that direction. They bopped and scrunched all around the room. But I don't in the least regret the Mosaiques purchase; they do adopt more of a 'recital' mode, as you called it, but I don't detect  the least hint of sterility. I fancy they have a more ethereal approach, which convinces me with its own kind of healing validity, in between the party-on sessions that the Festetics seem to want to invite me to. I exaggerate of course, to stress my point, but you know by now that I'm prone to that, Gurn!

Further recommendations noted with thanks. I'll get there one day!

Ah, I was sure you would like those. They suit your personality as I perceive it. As for the Mosaiques, I think my reply to Dave sums up my feelings about them. You are quite right. Absolutely nothing wrong with them whatsoever. Merely a different approach. Sometimes it suits me better than others. One needn't always rollick.   I will certainly continue this series to the end. I am very pleased that some of my discoveries are working for others too. It isn't always that way.




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Now playing:
Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss - Hob 08_03 March in Eb 'For the Prince of Wales'

[Leo K.]

Yes, that's a good way of putting it for me too. When I started on the Goodman symphonies (I worked through roughly in chronological order) something like your sense of a familiar language was there from the start; except that it was a language that I didn't know I could get a grip on until I heard it, and then found all was surprisingly well. At home, you call it - yes, that's right. Actually I felt so at home, so comfy, that I listened to too many symphonies too fast; I need to go back and add some detail to the blurred memory.

I've now listened to a couple of the opus 20 quartets that I felt I knew reasonably well from the Mosaiques set, and I must say they're a joy. Thanks very much for pointing me in that direction. They bopped and scrunched all around the room. But I don't in the least regret the Mosaiques purchase; they do adopt more of a 'recital' mode, as you called it, but I don't detect  the least hint of sterility. I fancy they have a more ethereal approach, which convinces me with its own kind of healing validity, in between the party-on sessions that the Festetics seem to want to invite me to. I exaggerate of course, to stress my point, but you know by now that I'm prone to that, Gurn!

Further recommendations noted with thanks. I'll get there one day!

I too, absolutely LOVE the Mosaiques Haydn set. You describe the experience of their sound better than I! Excellant!

[Gurn Blanston]

Part the 6th;

OK, I see you guys aren't going to do my research for me. I sure wanted to know more about that concertos-in-church thing. Guess I'll have to find a book...

Well, let's move forward to 1757. I'm not sure I understand the sudden appearance of so many works, beginning in this year. Did Haydn suddenly find his muse? Or conversely, is it a case of manuscripts being preserved where previously they weren't? My personal belief is that his expanding social circle, which now included the likes of the famous Countess Thun and the Fürnburg family (for whom he wrote his first divertimentos/string quartets) served the dual purpose of spurring on his composing as well as providing an environment in which his music could survive. I haven't seen a better explanation than that, although there possibly is one.

And speaking of those divertimentos, we here encounter something that will plague us for the next 2 decades, so I might as well explain my solution here now. The dates listed for these works, which were NOT composed as sets but merely assembled into Op 1 & 2 many years later when they were published, are narrowed down to the years 1757-61. In order to put a representation across that time line, I took the 10 authentic works and placed 2 in each of the 5 years. Who can possibly know the actual order of composition? Possibly it was 3 in '57, 3 in '59 and 4 in '61!?!   So I just went with what gave the best representation. If that invalidates this entire list, then it's time to bail out right now.

1757
Hob 01_001 Symphony in D
The Hanover Band / Goodman


Hob 01_037 Symphony in C
Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood


Hob 02_20 Divertimento a nove Stromenti in F for Strings & Winds   (2 Oboes, 2 Horns, 2 Violins, 2 Violas & Basso)
Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss


Hob 03_01 Divertimento in Bb for Strings Op 1 #1   
Hob 03_02 Divertimento in Eb for Strings Op 1 #2   
Hamburg Soloists / Emil Klein


Hob 05_01 Divertimento á tre in Eb for 2 Violins & Bass   
Hob 05_02 Divertimento á tre in F for 2 Violins & Bass   
Hob 05_06 Divertimento á tre in Eb for 2 Violins & Bass
Hob 05_08 Divertimento á tre in Bb for Violin, Viola & Bass
Hob 05_11 Divertimento á tre in Eb for 2 Violins & Bass
Hob 05_13 Divertimento á tre in Bb for 2 Violins & Bass
Hob 05_15 Divertimento á tre in D for 2 Violins & Bass
Das Wiener Philharmonia Trio


Hob 05_03 Divertimento á tre in b for 2 Violins & Bass   
Hob 05_04 Divertimento á tre in Eb for 2 Violins & Bass   
Hob 05_07 Divertimento á tre in A for 2 Violins & Bass   
Hob 05_10 Divertimento á tre in F for 2 Violins & Bass   
Hob 05_12 Divertimento á tre in E for 2 Violins & Bass   
Camerata Berolinensis


Hob 15_01 Trio (Divertimento) in g for Keyboard & Strings   
Hob 15_34 Trio (Divertimento) in E for Keyboard & Strings   
Hob 15_35 Trio (Divertimento) in A for Keyboard & Strings   
Hob 15_37 Trio (Divertimento) in F for Keyboard & Strings   
Hob 15_38 Trio (Divertimento) in Bb for Keyboard & Strings   
Hob 15_40 Trio (Divertimento) in F for Keyboard & Strings   
Hob 15_41 Trio (Divertimento) in G for Keyboard & Strings   
Hob 15_C1 Trio (Divertimento) in C for Keyboard & Strings   
Trio 1790


Hob 16_G1 Sonata (Divertimento) #4 in G for Keyboard   
Yuko Wataya



The first symphonies are here, the first symphonies are here!!! If you haven't listened to them, then on your first listen please tell me if I'm the only one who felt that they were recognizably Haydn. This seems to have been an arena in which his unique voice could be heard right from the start. In these earliest ones, the only readily available PI choices are Goodman & Hogwood. I chose one of each because I like them both and wanted good representation. You could go with either one if you are still shopping and not feel at all slighted whichever you ended up with. Except, of course, Goodman's use of a (barely audible to me) harpsichord continuo while Hogwood disparaged the concept.

All of the disks mentioned are PI with the exception of the Klein quartets and the Vienna Philharmonia String Trio. If there is a PI version of these works, I haven't seen it yet. I do have 2 of them on a different disk, but neither of these is included. We can discuss some differences when we get there though. There are some.

Please inundate me with feedback, comment, complaint, question etc. It makes me think and I appreciate that.

I bump this here because there are some other points I wanted to make and it is rapidly slipping away from us. 

[Que]

[asin]B000CAKZJO[/asin][asin]B000M2DJTA[/asin]

I link these 2 in Amazon. If you can't find the Camerata disks (and you won't, not all of them anyway) then these are your only other choice. It isn't like you are settling for something though, they are excellent, both music and playing. 

Those two Berolinensis disc are jaw droppingly gorgeous IMO! It's a BIG downer that they didn't continue their series  - would be a nice project for Brilliant as a follow up tot the baryton trios set!

Q

[Opus106]

Those two Berolinensis disc are jaw droppingly gorgeous IMO! It's a BIG downer that they didn't continue their series  - would be a nice project for Brilliant as a follow up tot the baryton trios set!

Q

Why is Haydn cursed with so many incomplete sets?

[Gurn Blanston]

Those two Berolinensis disc are jaw droppingly gorgeous IMO! It's a BIG downer that they didn't continue their series  - would be a nice project for Brilliant as a follow up tot the baryton trios set!

Q

Yes, they are awfully damned good, I guess I am rather irked that they got to volume 2 and then stopped. Even reviews and sales were good, it is nonsensical to me.   I always hoped Brilliant would buy up the project and finish it for a projected Big Box II; the Sequel. There are certainly enough works missing from Big Box I to make that happen.   

[Gurn Blanston]

Why is Haydn cursed with so many incomplete sets?

My guess is that he is right on the border of popularity where everyone admits he is Top 5 material, but not so many want to pay Top 5 prices. The Hogwood symphonies, for example, were really expensive. A 3 disk set going for $58 (which they did when new) is not going to have the sales of a Naxos or Brilliant box. Bach, Beethoven and sometimes Mozart are the only composers that can sustain those prices over time. I think a good example is the Hyperion/Goodman. If I'm not mistaken, the budget Helios releases have far outsold the original Hyperion disks. At less than half price, why not? But anyway, you are nearly always talking about a large number of disks, whether it is a complete set of symphonies, or string quartets, or piano trios or whatever genre he dabbled in. I can just imagine how far the Brilliant Baryton set would have gotten if it had been released one disk at a time at even mid-price...




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Now playing:
Minnesota Orchestra; Vanska - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 3rd mvmt - Adagio molto e cantabile

[Opus106]

I don't know how the frequency at which the recordings took place compares to that at which the discs were released, but these series seem to have stopped right about the time they were near completion; not a third- or even at the half-way point. Had they waited a little longer, they likely would have made money out of 'reasonably priced' boxes of complete works (in a genre).

[Gurn Blanston]

I don't know how the frequency at which the recordings took place compares to that at which the discs were released, but these series seem to have stopped right about the time they were near completion; not a third- or even at the half-way point. Had they waited a little longer, they likely would have made money out of 'reasonably priced' boxes of complete works (in a genre).

Certainly. I think they made some horrible business decisions, in the sense that Decca, for example, recorded all the way up to #77, and then, right at the point where the most popular and best selling symphonies were due to be recorded, they stopped. The sales on a set with the Paris Symphonies alone would have recouped any losses that were owing to the lesser known volumes. And then, as you say, the complete set sales later on, and the prestige that accrued to them in having the only complete PI set of Haydn symphonies would have been far greater than any temporary inconvenience they were suffering. I can't say how low I hold them in my esteem for that extremely poor business decision. I try not to speak that way in public.

[Gurn Blanston]

I bump this here because there are some other points I wanted to make and it is rapidly slipping away from us. 

I see at this point that Haydn is dipping his toes into a few new genres;

Symphonies
String Quartets
String Trios
Keyboard Trios

The only holdover styles right now are the divertimento for strings and winds, and the keyboard solo sonata. I would very much like to know why this might be. The underlying difficulty of that, of course, is that we are standing on shifting ground with chronology issues. If we postulate that by 1756 he has learned much (an easy supposition to make no matter) and also that he is hanging out with a different crowd (also easily verifiable), are these two things on their own enough to be able to say that suddenly he started writing in 4 new genres, and 3 of them turned out to be those which he carried on to the end of his life and made his fame and fortune with?  Or can we actually suppose that he wrote some of these even earlier (I would suggest the first keyboard trios for this honor, and possibly some of the string trios)?  His manuscripts, when they exist at all, are notoriously difficult to date because he didn't usually write a date on them. But if all is as written right now, then 1757 was a watershed year for Haydn. In a very short time he would find his first regular employment, and musicians would actually be asking for copies of his works. The rough years of being a Vienna student/apprentice were nearly over. Time for the master craftsman to emerge!

[SonicMan46]

Those two Berolinensis disc are jaw droppingly gorgeous IMO! It's a BIG downer that they didn't continue their series  - would be a nice project for Brilliant as a follow up tot the baryton trios set!

Gurn & Q - those two discs have peaked my interested but are going for $16 each on Amazon (could get them both as MP3 downloads for $20) - now concerning the number, how many discs would be needed to complete a String Trio cycle by Haydn?

Another completely incoherent review of one of those discs on Amazon (3* rating only) - Check HERE; now just may be me misunderstanding the reviewer but do the comments make any sense?  Thanks for any input - Dave

[Gurn Blanston]

Gurn & Q - those two discs have peaked my interested but are going for $16 each on Amazon (could get them both as MP3 downloads for $20) - now concerning the number, how many discs would be needed to complete a String Trio cycle by Haydn?

Another completely incoherent review of one of those discs on Amazon (3* rating only) - Check HERE; now just may be me misunderstanding the reviewer but do the comments make any sense?  Thanks for any input - Dave

You mean this one, of course:

While the project of recodings all the authentic Divertimenti for String Trio by Joseph Haydn is very commendable. The performance by "Das Wiener Philharmonia Trio" is marred by their misunderstanding of the variable "eighth note" appogiaturas in early Haydn before he came in contact to C.P.E. Bach's treatise on performing on keyboard instruments. Conseguently, particulary in the cadences of the Minuet and "Tempo di Menuetto" movements, we are shocked to hear a short appogiatura which should last two-thirds of the main note value. In other words, the "eighth-note" appogiatura preceeding a dotted half should be performed as a half note appogiatura, resovling to a quarter note. I tried to readjust my inner ear to the correct projecture, but find it very annoying to constanting hearing the overquick gliding over what should be the expressive appogiatura note, missing the impact of what was intended by Haydn

Well, to start with, he isn't even reviewing the disk in question. "Das Wiener Philharmonia Trio" is a modern instrument group that records on Camerata Records. Note my post above. Second, the issue that he is talking about, if it even exists there, is highly debatable as to its actual validity. The extent to which Haydn's study of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Versuch ("The True Art of Playing the Keyboard") affected his writing for strings is totally unknown. So if this guy's 'inner ear' is affected to the point of making him loony, I would propose that he is nearly there already.




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Now playing:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03_72 Quartet in C for Strings Op 74 #1 4th mvmt - Finale: Vivace

[SonicMan46]

Well, to start with, he isn't even reviewing the disk in question. "Das Wiener Philharmonia Trio" is a modern instrument group that records on Camerata Records. Note my post above. Second, the issue that he is talking about, if it even exists there, is highly debatable as to its actual validity. The extent to which Haydn's study of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Versuch ("The True Art of Playing the Keyboard") affected his writing for strings is totally unknown. So if this guy's 'inner ear' is affected to the point of making him loony, I would propose that he is nearly there already.

Thanks Gurn for the quick reply - that was my thought exactly, i.e. wrong disc!  Dave

[Gurn Blanston]

Gurn & Q - those two discs have peaked my interested but are going for $16 each on Amazon (could get them both as MP3 downloads for $20) - now concerning the number, how many discs would be needed to complete a String Trio cycle by Haydn?

Oops, sorry, forgot this part.

I see them for $12 at Allegro Music. Look in the Marketplace section. Skip MovieMars, of course. Allegro is actually the importer and supplier of these. They are 100% reliable. I paid $11.99/disk when they were released, price has bumped a bit.

The Wiener Philharmonia Trio has 6 disks. However, they include all the "attributed to" ones too. The first 4 disks have all the Hob regular numbered ones. The last 2 have all the "G2  C11 D3" ones. Some of which are authentic, but there is little enough written about them to leave you wondering.

[Bogey]

Why is Haydn cursed with so many incomplete sets?

See: Fall of man