Haydn's Haus

[Opus106]

Is this the appropriate moment to mention that I abandoned indexing of Gurn's posts early on?  

[Gurn Blanston]

No.22 "The Philosopher" is a great symphony. Is it significant in any way that it was composed in the "church sonata" format? Or was this just a purely musical choice for this particular movement layout? I know other works such as No.49 "La passione" were also composed this way, but was always curious about the structure.

Inspired to listen now to...

Interesting question, Greg. Thanks for making me look it up, now I have an idea about it too.  

Like nearly all questions related to music history, this one has answers that are both interpretive and ambivalent. One would infer from the name that a 'church sonata (sonate da chiesa)' is composed for use in church. And it's true, by the middle of the 17th century that in Italy the instrumental sonata had replaced extended organ solos as part of the mass proper. Since not all music was deemed suitable to play during mass, a form gradually evolved due to the fact that music directors would pick and choose parts of works to use, for propriety's sake. By the mid-18th century, that is, in Haydn's time, the standard had at least evolved to being a long slow movement followed by an allegro and then a mixed bag, depending on how many movements there were. What is important here is only that the standard, 'textbook' definition of 'church sonata', by Haydn's time, was a cycle of instrumental movements beginning with a slow movement.

However concurrently, the form itself moved outside of church circles (by 1720, apparently), and so by 1760's there seems to have been no more or less likelihood that a sonate da chiesa would be used in church than would a symphony beginning with an allegro. There certainly are some symphonies that were composed for church use, #30 'Alleluia' is an example, but with some clear exceptions that are not suitable, most of them could have been, whether in that old form or not. It seems lore likely that Haydn was just paying tribute to the old styles than specifically writing church music.

A neat thing about #22, getting back to that for a moment, is that it is the only symphony ever written by anyone at any time that loses the oboes and replaces them with English horns. The fact that it makes a brilliant effect in the first movement, but maybe less so in the remaining 3 may be the reason why this innovation became a one-off. I am delighted that he tried it though. Uniqueness is a good thing, whether in success or failure. Or in between. I think that is one of the roots of his greatness; he wasn't afraid to try new stuff, and if it failed, so be it. Most things didn't fail, it would seem.



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Now playing:

  Vienna Haydn Sinfonietta \ Huss - Hob 10_12 Divertimento Octet #7 in G for Baryton, Winds & Strings 3rd mvmt - Finale: Presto

[Gurn Blanston]

Is this the appropriate moment to mention that I abandoned indexing of Gurn's posts early on?  

And it would have been so easy if you had just kept after it!   

[SonicMan46]

The baryton trio disk (well, I needed another one ) promises, by all I've read, to also be a winner. The barytonist, Balestracci, is reputed to be an actual virtuoso on the instrument. How rare is that?  We'll see shortly. The liner notes were highly interesting with a brief discussion of actually playing the instrument. I can't remember any baryton disk that went that direction before. Hope it lives up to my expectations, I'll let you know tomorrow.

Gurn - LOL!    Guess I need another baryton disc like a hole in the head!   

Let's see I have the BIG BOX, the 2 Hsu discs, 1 CD on Hugaroton w/ Kakuk, and the 2-disc set on Ricercar - many of the works on the above recording are also on the Hsu & Kakuk CDs, BUT I did enjoy reading Bruno's comments on Amazon HERE - SO, what do you think, i.e. worth adding to my collection?  If so, are the liner notes needed (vs. a MP3 download) - thanks!  Dave

[TheGSMoeller]

Interesting question, Greg. Thanks for making me look it up, now I have an idea about it too.  

Like nearly all questions related to music history, this one has answers that are both interpretive and ambivalent. One would infer from the name that a 'church sonata (sonate da chiesa)' is composed for use in church. And it's true, by the middle of the 17th century that in Italy the instrumental sonata had replaced extended organ solos as part of the mass proper. Since not all music was deemed suitable to play during mass, a form gradually evolved due to the fact that music directors would pick and choose parts of works to use, for propriety's sake. By the mid-18th century, that is, in Haydn's time, the standard had at least evolved to being a long slow movement followed by an allegro and then a mixed bag, depending on how many movements there were. What is important here is only that the standard, 'textbook' definition of 'church sonata', by Haydn's time, was a cycle of instrumental movements beginning with a slow movement.

However concurrently, the form itself moved outside of church circles (by 1720, apparently), and so by 1760's there seems to have been no more or less likelihood that a sonate da chiesa would be used in church than would a symphony beginning with an allegro. There certainly are some symphonies that were composed for church use, #30 'Alleluia' is an example, but with some clear exceptions that are not suitable, most of them could have been, whether in that old form or not. It seems lore likely that Haydn was just paying tribute to the old styles than specifically writing church music.

A neat thing about #22, getting back to that for a moment, is that it is the only symphony ever written by anyone at any time that loses the oboes and replaces them with English horns. The fact that it makes a brilliant effect in the first movement, but maybe less so in the remaining 3 may be the reason why this innovation became a one-off. I am delighted that he tried it though. Uniqueness is a good thing, whether in success or failure. Or in between. I think that is one of the roots of his greatness; he wasn't afraid to try new stuff, and if it failed, so be it. Most things didn't fail, it would seem.

Wonderful reply. I wasn't very familiar with the term "church sonata" until I heard Haydn's #22 and #49, there was something very striking for me hearing these two works for the first time. Mainly due to the dramatic Adagio openings. I always find myself drawn to works that separate themselves from a common compositional structure. (#26, #45, #60...)
Looking forward to the future installments of Haydn's history here at the Haus.
Thanks again, Gurn.

[Gurn Blanston]

Gurn - LOL!    Guess I need another baryton disc like a hole in the head!   

Let's see I have the BIG BOX, the 2 Hsu discs, 1 CD on Hugaroton w/ Kakuk, and the 2-disc set on Ricercar - many of the works on the above recording are also on the Hsu & Kakuk CDs, BUT I did enjoy reading Bruno's comments on Amazon HERE - SO, what do you think, i.e. worth adding to my collection?  If so, are the liner notes needed (vs. a MP3 download) - thanks!  Dave

Hey, Dave,
Yeah, sometimes it is a case of 'want' rather than 'need'.   But I read about this one and wanted it. Of course, there is nothing new for us music-wise here, however, I will say that the reviews are right on. They really do make the music more alive, in short, they play the hell out of it! If we didn't have all that music already, we would probably be saying 'wow, baryton trios are cool!'.

The notes are quite interesting, but not indispensable. Since they are in several languages, the net gain is only a couple of pages. Unless a hard copy collection is important to you, I would be happy with the MP3's, I think. As you know, with me, I have a goal of having hard copy of all my Haydn. Other composers though, not so much. Also, possible to check Ricercar's website and the notes may be downloadable.

[Bogey]

Gurn - LOL!    Guess I need another baryton disc like a hole in the head!   

Let's see I have the BIG BOX, the 2 Hsu discs, 1 CD on Hugaroton w/ Kakuk, and the 2-disc set on Ricercar - many of the works on the above recording are also on the Hsu & Kakuk CDs, BUT I did enjoy reading Bruno's comments on Amazon HERE - SO, what do you think, i.e. worth adding to my collection?  If so, are the liner notes needed (vs. a MP3 download) - thanks!  Dave

Well, I have always thought of you fondly as Baryton46, Dave.....so get on with the purchase!

[Gurn Blanston]

Wonderful reply. I wasn't very familiar with the term "church sonata" until I heard Haydn's #22 and #49, there was something very striking for me hearing these two works for the first time. Mainly due to the dramatic Adagio openings. I always find myself drawn to works that separate themselves from a common compositional structure. (#26, #45, #60...)
Looking forward to the future installments of Haydn's history here at the Haus.
Thanks again, Gurn.

Hey, Greg, glad it answered your question. I learned something from looking it up too, so it was win:win!   Somewhere previously we all talked about Haydn's facility with adagios. One tends to think of 2nd or 3rd movements there, but like, the opening movement adagio of #49 is 12 minutes long! And the 7 adagios of the 7 Last Words total 55 minutes without wearing you out! I agree with you, the uncommon structural things always gain my ear too. On the opposite side are the works that do extraordinary things in an ordinary framework. Haydn was great at both.





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Now playing:

  James Griffett (Tenor) \ Bradford Tracey (1798 Broadwood Fortepiano) - Hob 26a_33 Original Canzonettas  Book II  'Sympathy'

[Bogey]

Added this one to my Xmas wish-list:



Not only did the reviews here move me toward it, but I believe that there is also something to be said about an ensemble/orch. when thay have only done one disc worth of music by a performer (at least I believe this is the case here).  Shows a passion for a piece or two. 

Might be an interesting conversation.  What discs do you enjoy where the group only took on one discs worth of Haydn's music and recorded nothing else by him?

[Antoine Marchand]

Added this one to my Xmas wish-list:



Not only did the reviews here move me toward it, but I believe that there is also something to be said about an ensemble/orch. when thay have only done one disc worth of music by a performer (at least I believe this is the case here).  Shows a passion for a piece or two. 

Might be an interesting conversation.  What discs do you enjoy where the group only took on one discs worth of Haydn's music and recorded nothing else by him?

This is a superb example:

[asin]B0000029VW[/asin]

The Quartetto Esterházy was an ensemble leaded by Jaap Schröeder. They also recorded some interesting Boccherini. 

[Gurn Blanston]

Here a a couple more, IMO:




True, the Schuppanzigh's did 2 disks, but they are all over in opus numbers, and clearly they did just 6 quartets that they liked a lot.

Trio Goya is an excellent disk, and strictly a one-off, so far anyway.

Immerseel and Anima Eterna haven't touched Haydn beyond this, and did a very nice job with these. Certainly they could have done more if they wanted to.

Then there are the groups that never do "completes' anyway, they pick some really nice works and do a great job with them, then move on to another composer. Like these:



The common thread there is Beths & Bylsma (Mr. & Mrs.). I think they had a yen to do some Haydn and they teamed up with other great PI musicians to make it happen. 3 different genres, 1 each.




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Now playing:
  Academy of Ancient Music; Hogwood - Hob 01_022 Symphony in Eb 1st mvmt - Adagio

[Karl Henning]

True, the Schuppanzigh's did 2 disks, but they are all over in opus numbers, and clearly they did just 6 quartets that they liked a lot.

Nothing wrong with that, bien sûr!

[Opus106]

Some of those could have been the result of funding issues also, you know.

[The new erato]

Each time I see this thread I always misread it as Harry's House and expect to see something like this:

[Gurn Blanston]

Nothing wrong with that, bien sûr!

No, absolutely! That was the point, I think. Bill was asking about one-hit-wonders in the Haydn discography.

Some of those could have been the result of funding issues also, you know.

True, although in these cases, L'Archibudelli has done every composer this way, so I figure it was their intent from the start. And the Schuppanzigh's call their disks "Anthology Vol 1 and 2" so that probably is their intent too. With Immerseel and the Esterhazy Quartet I just don't know any back story.

[Gurn Blanston]

Each time I see this thread I always misread it as Harry's House and expect to see something like this:

There is simply nothing to be said about this one. I think you hit the nail on the head first try. This IS in the Netherlands, yes?

[Antoine Marchand]

Immerseel & Anima Eterna also recorded this tempting disc:



I recalled these excellent just-one-Haydn:

[Gurn Blanston]

Immerseel & Anima Eterna also recorded this tempting disc:



I recalled these excellent just-one-Haydn:

There you go, live and learn. I didn't know about that mass recording.

I was going to put the Gaia Scienza disk on MY list too, but I had several others already. It is certainly a fair choice for it. My favorite of those works.

Tell me more about the Rincontro disk, Antoine. I have been looking at that for a while.

[Antoine Marchand]

Tell me more about the Rincontro disk, Antoine. I have been looking at that for a while.

It is time for lunch! I will write something later. 

[Gurn Blanston]

It is time for lunch! I will write something later. 

Important things first. Since our Haus kitchen is shut down for the holiday, you will have to arrange for yourself. See you later.