Haydn's Haus

[Karl Henning]

What I revel in are the differences between conductors: what each can tell me about Haydn's music; how eternally fresh and miraculous and different it can be. I appreciate the extremes; helps me listen with fresh ears--and after listening to Haydn for over forty years now, a little grotesque is quite refreshing 

This. (Incidentally, this must also hinge upon the reason why I find unthinkable the idea that, for instance, a single Soviet-era conductor should own the music of a certain Soviet-era composer.)

[Leon]

But, heavens, why would you want to hear Haydn only one way, and the average way at that? Are you blonde by any chance? Have you ever met a family of bears?

What I revel in are the differences between conductors: what each can tell me about Haydn's music; how eternally fresh and miraculous and different it can be. I appreciate the extremes; helps me listen with fresh ears--and after listening to Haydn for over forty years now, a little grotesque is quite refreshing 

I suppose I might feel the same way if Fey were the only Haydn conductor I listened to. But he isn't. I don't overdose on anyone, not even my beloved Szell. So Fey stays fresh...and surprising-

Sarge

However, I never said I wanted to hear Haydn only one way; what I said was that there are a few ways I do not enjoy to hear Haydn played.  "Polite" is one, and "exaggerated" is another of those ways.   

But since I have not, in fact, heard any of Mr. Fey's recordings, and only read descriptions of them, I cannot for sure say that his performances fall into either of those extremes.  But I can guess that his fall close to the "exaggerated" kind that do not appeal to me.

I can and do enjoy non-PI recordings, e.g. Dorati and Szell - so this is not merely an anti-MI opinion. 

[Sergeant Rock]

What about some of the Adagios or Menuets from Fey? I find them quite lovely.

I love them. Fey finds the emotional heart in Haydn. But some reviewers find them mannered and slow...too expressive.

Sarge

[Elgarian]

Well, compared to his recordings of the earlier numbered symphonies (e.g., 39, 54) his Paris symphonies come across more "big band"--which isn't historically out of place (Paris had a large orchestra). I'd hardly call the readings polite though. Fey really brings out the dissonance and drama in, for example, the Bear's first movement. But I accept the fact that you have a different set of ears 

Yes, I think it's (a) a matter of ears; but also (b) a special use of the word 'polite' which is a kind of shorthand that I've picked up from Gurn that I think is only indirectly to do with identifiable qualities such as dissonance and drama, having more to do with attitude. If I'd listened to Fey as my first foray into Haydn symphonies, I don't think I'd have gone any further - not because it isn't any good, but because it sounded too much (but not completely of course) like the 'old' Haydn I always thought I knew.

I listened to Kuijken's La Reine today, and the experience told me (a) that I am, as I thought, not quite in the right frame of mind right now; but also (b) give me Kuijken any day. These comments are purely personal responses though - I'm not capable of understanding, let alone articulating, the musical differences that I presume I'm responding to. I'm just talking, not imparting wisdom or even insight!

[Sergeant Rock]

I listened to Kuijken's La Reine today, and the experience told me (a) that I am, as I thought, not quite in the right frame of mind right now; but also (b) give me Kuijken any day.

I bought a bunch of Kuijken recently (the Londons and the Chunnels) but, while I enjoy his performances, they never made me think: wow this is something thrilling and different (not like first hearing Solomons or Pinnock or Goodman or Norrington or Fey or Szell or Bernstein or Harnoncourt--all of whom wow'd me, and still do). Kuijken sounded, to use your phrase, like the same old Haydn to me, i.e., nothing new, nothing revelatory, and nothing I actually needed to invest in. In fact, of all the Haydn performances I own, Kuijken comes closest to being....polite.

Strange, isn't it,  how we respond to the same thing so differently.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

This. (Incidentally, this must also hinge upon the reason why I find unthinkable the idea that, for instance, a single Soviet-era conductor should own the music of a certain Soviet-era composer.)

While Rostropovich and Sanderling may be my favorite Shosty conductors, I do agree with you: neither one owns the symphonies (although Sanderling comes close with his Cleveland 15th 

Sarge

[Elgarian]

I bought a bunch of Kuijken recently (the Londons and the Chunnels) but, while I enjoy his performances, they never made me think: wow this is something thrilling and different (not like first hearing Solomons or Pinnock or Goodman or Norrington or Fey or Szell or Bernstein or Harnoncourt--all of whom wow'd me, and still do). Kuijken sounded, to use your phrase, like the same old Haydn to me, i.e., nothing new, nothing revelatory, and nothing I actually needed to invest in. In fact, of all the Haydn performances I own, Kuijken comes closest to being....polite.

Strange, isn't it,  how we respond to the same thing so differently.

I think a partial answer may lie in the fact that you have long and deep acquaintance with Haydn, whereas I'm a mere Haydnistic tyro with a bee in his bonnet (verging on neurosis) about rock&roll in the classical and baroque periods. If I'd listened to as many different interpretations as you have, Sarge, then maybe I'd be less impressed by Kuijken? I really can't say. Too many variables for us to be able to resolve the issue!

Afterthought: I should say though that I don't find the same degree of rock&roll in Kuijken's Paris symphs as I do in Pinnock's Sturm&Drangs. Of course that may merely mean that I'm less of a fan of the Paris symphonies. (Sometimes, the hugeness of the quantity of things I neither know nor understand seems overwhelming.)

[Gurn Blanston]

I think a partial answer may lie in the fact that you have long and deep acquaintance with Haydn, whereas I'm a mere Haydnistic tyro with a bee in his bonnet (verging on neurosis) about rock&roll in the classical and baroque periods. If I'd listened to as many different interpretations as you have, Sarge, then maybe I'd be less impressed by Kuijken? I really can't say. Too many variables for us to be able to resolve the issue!

Afterthought: I should say though that I don't find the same degree of rock&roll in Kuijken's Paris symphs as I do in Pinnock's Sturm&Drangs. Of course that may merely mean that I'm less of a fan of the Paris symphonies. (Sometimes, the hugeness of the quantity of things I neither know nor understand seems overwhelming.)

I don't know, my own experience probably lies between yours and Sarge's. I didn't really start seriously listening to Haydn as an adult until <>20 years ago, by which time Sarge had 30 or more already in the can. But I can base my feeling about this strictly in my experience with composers in general.

Which is basically that the intangibles of a performance add up to the allure. The thing I laugh at when I read a review is that beyond the actual performance, the reviewer has facts and figures (like tempi, repeats etc) that he can objectively compare, and even a history of listening experience for that work through different performances and styles. However, when it comes down to the bottom line, he is no more able to describe what the appeal is of a performance than Alan's 'rock 'n roll' or my 'it makes me grin' descriptor. It may sound more enlightened because of a higher mastery of descriptive rhetoric, but in the end it isn't saying more than "I liked it" or "I thought it sucked". So you know, I don't worry about it. 

[Gurn Blanston]

Part 33

1784

A real year of flowering out. Commissions poured in from abroad, recent works were published and distributed, and personal life got suddenly more personal with the friendship between him and Mozart. In that year, he joined the Freemasons (although wasn't active afterwards), and spent a fair amount of his Vienna time with Mozart. It is the year of Michael Kelly's famous "Quartet Party" (First Violin: Haydn – Second Violin: Dittersdorf – Cello: Vanhal – Tenor (Viola: Mozart). And of Mozart's composition of the "Haydn Quartets" (K 465 completed Jan 1785).

We see a return (finally) to the keyboard trio (accompanied sonata). This seems to have been strictly a 'for profit' venture. Haydn had offered to write either a set of piano sonatas or a set of trios for Artaria, and the trios were chosen. Of course, one sells 3 sets of parts to the amateur social musician trade with trios...

Here also appear (written for England) the 6 divertimentos for Flute (or Violin), Flute & Cello which we saw a few years ago as part of the redistribution of the lovely music from Il mondo della Luna.

The music of 1784;

Hob 01_079 Symphony in F
   Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra / Fischer
Hob 01_080 Symphony in d
   Freiburger Barockorchester / Gottfried von der Goltz
Hob 01_081 Symphony in G
   Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra / Fischer


Hob 04_06 Divertimento á tre in D for Flute, Violin & Cello   
Hob 04_07 Divertimento á tre in G for Flute, Violin & Cello   
Hob 04_08 Divertimento á tre in C for Flute, Violin & Cello   
Hob 04_09 Divertimento á tre in G for Flute, Violin & Cello   
Hob 04_10 Divertimento á tre in A for Flute, Violin & Cello   
Hob 04_11 Divertimento á tre in D for Flute, Violin & Cello
   Ensemble Sans Souci Berlin


Hob 15_05 Trio in G for Piano & Strings   
Hob 15_06 Trio in F for Piano & Strings
   Trio 1790


Hob 16_47 Sonata #57 in F for Fortepiano
   Ronald Brautigam


Hob 26a_38 Lied with Keyboard – Der Schlaue Und Dienstfertige Pudel (The sly & obsequious Poodle)
   Elly Ameling / Jorg Demus


We see this year the second group of three symphonies that were composed originally as part of a set of six. The first three (Hob 76-78) went to Boyer in Paris, and the second three, those of the present group (79-81) went to Torricella in Vienna (who went bankrupt just then and sold them to Artaria) and to Forster in London. I am still very keen on this entire group, for whatever reason, and continue to be blistered by the unbelievable circumstance that two of them still haven't been recorded on period instruments!  I know, I couldn't believe it either. That said though, I really do like the Fischer recordings presented here, and feel that if you can't go PI,  you could do a lot worse than these. Fischer really is a good and worthy set (for MI ).

There are a good selection of these little Divertimenti á tre. Although I have yet to see one in the version with 2 flutes and cello. Here are two of them, one which I don't have and one which I do:


I have heard the Kuijkens and of course they are fabulous, and I have the Schönbrunn's and they are also very good. I finally settled on the Ensemble Sans Souci simply because they have a very buoyant and lighthearted take that is most suitable to the music, IMO. I don't see how any of them could lead you wrong, nor also the Ensemble Agora disk which I know nothing about except that it has been well reviewed.


Now comes one of my favorite streaks of keyboard trios, Hob 5 & 6 of 1784 followed in 1785 by 7-10. To me the melodic invention in this group is boundless. I think that Haydn discovered in himself a great facility to work with this particular ensemble (which I have heard to be difficult due to the balancing of instrumental weights). Anyone who falls prey to that old canard about Haydn essentially just writing piano sonatas with a string here and there is in for a surprise if he listened to these with a truly open mind and a real understanding of what other composers have done. The two things that come out of this for me; how damned good were the amateurs of those days? And how wonderfully well a fortepiano blends in with the strings. There is no holding back (or need to) and the keyboardist can just let it rip. And that's what Trio 1790 do in these works. Yes, there are others, I know, I have damn near all of them. But these are ... just right!  They rock 'n roll....

For the lovely late keyboard sonata in F major, I have chosen Brautigam. His style fits well with this work, and I think he makes the most of it. YMMV though.

And now a little standalone Lied. I like this story, I believe it is true. It has been told for 225 years so maybe it is. As an aside, the translation from the German that I had from Hoboken was "The Sly and Obsequious Poodle", which adjectives are perhaps chosen to be less than complimentary. But in looking for an online copy of the story to save me typing it all out, I happened upon it at a poodle lover's website, where the translation is a much more laudatory "The Clever and Zealous Poodle". I don't know which is correct, but in any case, here is the story, and maybe it shows a different side of The Man.

"The great Austrian composer, Franz Joseph Haydn, composed a piece of music about a poodle. In 1780, a military officer's daughter from the German town of Coburg wrote a letter to Papa Haydn, as the beloved composer was popularly known. (Coburg is now part of Bavaria, but then, it was the capital of the small duchy of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. One later member of the ruling family was Prince Albert, Queen Victoria's consort. His descendants changed the family name to Windsor, in reaction to anti-German feeling among the British people fostered by World War I.)

"In the young woman's letter, she told Papa Haydn how she and her lover, a young Captain, together with his Pudel and another friend, had taken a walk. The Captain had praised his dog's talents and offered a bet that the dog would be able to find a Thaler (a silver coin of some value, from which the English word dollar is derived) that he would hide under a bush. The friend accepted the wager. When the dog was not looking, the Captain hid the Thaler. Everybody then returned home. The captain then said to his poodle, 'Search, lost.' The dog took off immediately along the path where the party had taken their walk.

"In the meantime, by happenstance, a tailor, who was on a journey, had sat down in the shadow of the bush under which the Captain had hidden the Thaler. When the tailor saw the Thaler, he picked it up, and put it in his pocket. Soon thereafter, the Pudel arrived at the scene, smelled the Thaler in the man's pocket, and flattered the tailor. The tailor, delighted at having found within an hour both a Thaler and a fine Pudel, took the dog with him to his lodging in town. The Pudel watched over the tailor the whole night. But early in the morning, when the door to the room was opened, he snuck out with the tailor's trousers and brought them, with the Thaler still in the pocket, to his true master.

"This little adventure was set in verse with the title, 'Der schlaue und dienstfertige Pudel' (The Clever and Zealous Poodle). In her letter, the young woman asked Papa Haydn to set the verses to music. She described her limited financial means, and said that she had heard high praises of the composer's good heart. So, she wrote, she hoped that he would accept the Ducat (another coin) that she had enclosed, as payment for the musical composition. Haydn immediately composed the music, and sent both the manuscript and the Ducat back to the young woman, along with a letter of explanation. Haydn wrote that he did not want the young woman to think that he would only use his talent for monetary compensation, especially for someone as charming as she. So, he asked for a pair of knit garters instead. The ribbons in red and white silk with a painted garland of forget-me-nots arrived a while later, and Papa Haydn preserved them carefully amongst his other treasured possessions.

So. 1784. Another good year. The Legend grows...

As always, feedback welcomed.

[TheGSMoeller]

Another great post, Gurn!

I noticed this recording of No.80 made your post for music of 1784, this is a fantastic disc. I really love No.80, I find it so unique. Its D Minor opening resembling Sturm und Drang and then into such a delicate B Flat Major Adagio. The Menuetto and Finale finish with a light and refreshing quality. The only other recording of No.80 I own is the Orpheus C.O. which I find to be quite good.

[Elgarian]

Which is basically that the intangibles of a performance add up to the allure.

Oh yes. And those intangibles can be very intangible indeed. I feel a story coming on:

Couple of years ago, I attended a blisteringly fine concert performed by the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment (mostly Handel and Purcell), and in the interval I approached one of the performers (still at her place, sorting something out) to say thank you. From the response, you might have thought I'd approached offering a chest of gold. I was whisked off to the dressing room and spent the whole of the interval talking to these lovely people, eventually emerging with my programme signed by every member of the orchestra (they'd been passing it around while I was engaged in chat).

Now the effect of that experience is not only intangible - it's indelible. I'd fight battles to defend the OAE. And when, last January, I noticed that Kuijken's Haydn Paris discs were recorded with the OAE, I clicked the Amazon 'Buy' button at something close to the speed of light. Yes, yes, I know that almost certainly none of the players I met were present at a recording made 20 years ago. And yes, I also know that the OAE is not a specific group of players, but an umbrella that covers a wide variety of particular performers. And yes, I know that if you asked me to determine which was which, on blind switching between an OAE recording and some other bunch of HIPsters, I couldn't do it. No matter. Art has never been, for me, just a matter of listening with ears or looking with eyes (and certainly not of passing some sort of test) - it's a matter of listening or looking with the heart too, and welcoming all the helpful associations that I can bring to bear. At the end of all discussion, the thing comes down to this human being, here, engaging with that piece of music, there, using whatever resources can be mustered to enhance and enrich the experience. I don't believe in a separate objective 'best' between Fey's and Kuijken's Paris symphonies. The only entities that count for anything, for me, are those we might call 'Sarge listening to Thomas Fey', 'Elgarian listening to Kuijken', and 'Gurn listening to [insert your favourite here]'. It's not a case of 'All must have prizes': it never was any kind of contest. Rather it's that 'All are a cause for celebration'.

[Que]

Rather it's that 'All are a cause for celebration'.

Thanks for sharing that.

And if anything this forum and this very thread is living proof of the fact we enjoy music, and in this case Haydn's art, immensely - irrespective of the performance.

Q

[Florestan]

here is the story

Se non è vero, è ben trovato - but it might very well be. Sounds so much fiting in the era and Haydn's gentlemanish personality.

[Florestan]

Oh yes. And those intangibles can be very intangible indeed. I feel a story coming on:

[...]

Wonderful, Alan! Thanks for sharing.

It's not a case of 'All must have prizes': it never was any kind of contest. Rather it's that 'All are a cause for celebration'.

QFT.

[Karl Henning]

Nice.

[Karl Henning]

I like this story, I believe it is true.

Hast seen the garters? : )

It has been told for 225 years so maybe it is. As an aside, the translation from the German that I had from Hoboken was "The Sly and Obsequious Poodle"

Makes you wonder if the tailor had been Hoboken's ancestor . . . .

[Gurn Blanston]

Another great post, Gurn!

I noticed this recording of No.80 made your post for music of 1784, this is a fantastic disc. I really love No.80, I find it so unique. Its D Minor opening resembling Sturm und Drang and then into such a delicate B Flat Major Adagio. The Menuetto and Finale finish with a light and refreshing quality. The only other recording of No.80 I own is the Orpheus C.O. which I find to be quite good.

Thanks, Greg. Yes, I really like that version and that symphony. We had a discussion recently about the violin concerto being a little lifeless sounding, but that certainly doesn't ecxtend to the 2 symphonies on this disk.

[Gurn Blanston]

Oh yes. And those intangibles can be very intangible indeed. I feel a story coming on:

Couple of years ago, I attended a blisteringly fine concert performed by the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment (mostly Handel and Purcell), and in the interval I approached one of the performers (still at her place, sorting something out) to say thank you. From the response, you might have thought I'd approached offering a chest of gold. I was whisked off to the dressing room and spent the whole of the interval talking to these lovely people, eventually emerging with my programme signed by every member of the orchestra (they'd been passing it around while I was engaged in chat).

Now the effect of that experience is not only intangible - it's indelible. I'd fight battles to defend the OAE. And when, last January, I noticed that Kuijken's Haydn Paris discs were recorded with the OAE, I clicked the Amazon 'Buy' button at something close to the speed of light. Yes, yes, I know that almost certainly none of the players I met were present at a recording made 20 years ago. And yes, I also know that the OAE is not a specific group of players, but an umbrella that covers a wide variety of particular performers. And yes, I know that if you asked me to determine which was which, on blind switching between an OAE recording and some other bunch of HIPsters, I couldn't do it. No matter. Art has never been, for me, just a matter of listening with ears or looking with eyes (and certainly not of passing some sort of test) - it's a matter of listening or looking with the heart too, and welcoming all the helpful associations that I can bring to bear. At the end of all discussion, the thing comes down to this human being, here, engaging with that piece of music, there, using whatever resources can be mustered to enhance and enrich the experience. I don't believe in a separate objective 'best' between Fey's and Kuijken's Paris symphonies. The only entities that count for anything, for me, are those we might call 'Sarge listening to Thomas Fey', 'Elgarian listening to Kuijken', and 'Gurn listening to [insert your favourite here]'. It's not a case of 'All must have prizes': it never was any kind of contest. Rather it's that 'All are a cause for celebration'.

That is a great experience, Alan! Not hard to see how that sort of behavior on the part of musicians makes fans. And how that all too rare behavior on the part of fans makes a musician's life choices feel justified.

Upon reflection, the reason that I enter discussions of favorites whilst totally avoiding those of greatest's is precisely what you are saying here; I don't really believe int he entire concept of greatest performance. One of the reason's that I spent so much time in the preparation phase of these essays has to do with my inability to choose from among so many truly fine performances. In most cases I was able to struggle onward, but if pressed I could easily change my mind and go with the "loser"...   Wait til you see MY list of Paris Symphonies....

[Gurn Blanston]

Hast seen the garters? : )

Makes you wonder if the tailor had been Hoboken's ancestor . . . .

Se non è vero, è ben trovato - but it might very well be. Sounds so much fiting in the era and Haydn's gentlemanish personality.

Well, the story was originally told by Haydn directly to A.C. Dies on May 12, 1806, and reported in Dies book "Biographical Notes on Joseph Haydn" which I have in translation in Haydn: Two Contemporary Portraits along with the Biographical Notice about (über) Joseph Haydn by Georg Greisinger. The story is much longer and more charmingly told there, but also ends in a tragic sort of way, as Haydn has the lady dying after sending the garters, as opposed to living happily ever after. In any case, it is a good story, and I prefer, like Florestan, to believe it entire. Haydn wouldn't lie, after all...

[Florestan]

Haydn has the lady dying after sending the garters

Vedi Napoli Garter Haydn e poi mori!...