Haydn's Haus

[mc ukrneal]

Ah, a time of innocence and grand visions. A time when:
- women were often valued for their ability to have baby boys
- slaves were accepted and even bred
- some people were born to wealth and thus entitled to the pleasures of life
- censors ruled the day on whether a work could be published
- jokes could land you in jail
- bathrooms were as clean as....(they were clean?)...(there were bathrooms?)....
- religious freedom was a dream, but not a reality
- taxes were high and politicians...(I guess some things don't change)...

Ah yes, the good old days! 

[Florestan]

Well, I can wish that the common denominator was wealth....

Wishful thinking, my friend... if it were only that it would be a mere trifle... 

It's true though, what you say. I do have an advantage over you in that I don't listen to post-Classical music any more.

Any more --- that says it all. Once heard it, always heard it

I suppose one can't un-ring a bell,

Suppose? Unringing a bell is as sure a thing as the Sun rising from the East... 

but when it comes to listening to later music, I've forgotten most of it now.

No kidding? 

Let's face it, Gurn: Nikolaus Eszterhazy never heard any of Beethoven's works, let alone what came after him. He never used any cellphone, credit card, car, plane, electric power, running water etc; of HIP he knew absolutely nothing whatsoever; comparing multiple recordings and choosing the one that pleased him the most was inconceivable to him; your way of life would be as alien to him as is yours compared to a South African bushman... and you're still trying to convince me you have something in common? 

[Florestan]

Ah, a time of innocence and grand visions. A time when:
- women were often valued for their ability to have baby boys
- slaves were accepted and even bred
- some people were born to wealth and thus entitled to the pleasures of life
- censors ruled the day on whether a work could be published
- jokes could land you in jail
- bathrooms were as clean as....(they were clean?)...(there were bathrooms?)....
- religious freedom was a dream, but not a reality
- taxes were high and politicians...(I guess some things don't change)...

Ah yes, the good old days! 

I'm afraid you've missed my point completely... 

[Florestan]

taxes were high and politicians...(I guess some things don't change)...

That's perhaps the only things we have in common with that bygone era... 

[mc ukrneal]

I'm afraid you've missed my point completely... 

Oh good! Because mine was so depresssing!

[Karl Henning]

Finally, finally got around to watching the Playing the Room feature from the Beghin box.  Most interesting and enjoyable (I admit I enjoyed the instrument-making bits more than the 'acoustical architecture' bits). Puttered just a bit with the 7X9 matrix.

[Gurn Blanston]

Wishful thinking, my friend... if it were only that it would be a mere trifle... 

Any more --- that says it all. Once heard it, always heard it

Suppose? Unringing a bell is as sure a thing as the Sun rising from the East... 

No kidding? 

Let's face it, Gurn: Nikolaus Eszterhazy never heard any of Beethoven's works, let alone what came after him. He never used any cellphone, credit card, car, plane, electric power, running water etc; of HIP he knew absolutely nothing whatsoever; comparing multiple recordings and choosing the one that pleased him the most was inconceivable to him; your way of life would be as alien to him as is yours compared to a South African bushman... and you're still trying to convince me you have something in common? 

I already said you were right, what more can I add to that? I have been making the same point for years, despite that many seem oblivious to it. 10 years ago on these very pages I beseeched people to try to put things in context; straight-up comparing the piano trios of Brahms to those of Mozart, for example, was a ludicrous exercise. Contextually and in all other ways except 2 of the instruments, they are from different worlds. And so it is with listening to 18th century music. However, to say that you can't appreciate it at all because you haven't got an 18th century mindset begs this question (from me): as someone born after the middle of the 20th century, how could YOU possibly appreciate any music other than Elmer Bernstein and Stockhausen (and Reich, et al)?  The 19th and early 20th centuries are also totally culturally different from 'modern times', even though one may feel more akin to them, that is a delusion too. 

[Florestan]

to say that you can't appreciate it at all because you haven't got an 18th century mindset begs this question (from me): as someone born after the middle of the 20th century, how could YOU possibly appreciate any music other than Elmer Bernstein and Stockhausen (and Reich, et al)?  The 19th and early 20th centuries are also totally culturally different from 'modern times', even though one may feel more akin to them, that is a delusion too. 

I don't say that at all, it would be sheer lunacy. I just say that we appreciate it in a different way than the 18th-century-people did and all attempts at recreating a physical and intellectual setting for appreciating it exactly as it was done back then are illusory. 

[Karl Henning]

O Freunde, nicht diese Töne . . . .

[Gurn Blanston]

I don't say that at all, it would be sheer lunacy. I just say that we appreciate it in a different way than the 18th-century-people did and all attempts at recreating a physical and intellectual setting for appreciating it exactly as it was done back then are illusory. 

O Freunde, nicht diese Töne . . . .

It's OK, Karl, I'm just giving back a little of what I get. There have been a few times in the recent past when I was wanting to answer "I don't say that at all, it would be sheer lunacy" to a thing or two, so I was being intentionally provocative in order to place the shoe on the other foot.

That's a lovely German phrase, maybe you could work it into some sort of Lied or something....   

[Florestan]

Suppose we lived in the second half of 18th century.

What were the chances we heard a Haydn symphony or SQ in our whole life?

What were the chances we heard the same Haydn symphony or SQ twice or more times in our whole life?

What were the chances we heard a Haydn symphony in the order we hear it today, i.e. all 4 movements in a row, uninterrupted by fragments of other composer's work?

In those circumstances hearing once in a lifetime Haydn's music would have been either the experience of your lifetime or just an entertaining event like any other. 

[Gurn Blanston]

Suppose we lived in the second half of 18th century.

What were the chances we heard a Haydn symphony or SQ in our whole life?

What were the chances we heard the same Haydn symphony or SQ twice or more times in our whole life?

What were the chances we heard a Haydn symphony in the order we hear it today, i.e. all 4 movements in a row, uninterrupted by fragments of other composer's work?

In those circumstances hearing once in a lifetime Haydn's music would have been either the experience of your lifetime or just an entertaining event like any other. 

Your premise is only true depending on the answers to the questions. Who you were (your station in life) and where you lived (Paris, Vienna & London would be good places) are the determining factors, obviously. There were many individuals (not a large percentage of the population, of course, but not an invisibly small percentage either) who heard Haydn dozens of times in their lives. Even in the 19th century there were no radios or phonographs, and yet by then, thousands of people were very familiar with Haydn's music.

[kishnevi]

Your premise is only true depending on the answers to the questions. Who you were (your station in life) and where you lived (Paris, Vienna & London would be good places) are the determining factors, obviously. There were many individuals (not a large percentage of the population, of course, but not an invisibly small percentage either) who heard Haydn dozens of times in their lives. Even in the 19th century there were no radios or phonographs, and yet by then, thousands of people were very familiar with Haydn's music.

There's also the impact of piano reductions and chamber arrangements which were sold with an eye on those people who might not get the chance to ever hear an orchestra play Haydn but had heard of his music and were curious as to what it sounded like.  Plus, in middle and upper class households,  the presence of at least one young lady able to play the harp or a keyboard instrument was almost taken for granted, and gentlemen with at least some facility on a musical instrument were usually not far away.

[Florestan]

There's also the impact of piano reductions and chamber arrangements which were sold with an eye on those people who might not get the chance to ever hear an orchestra play Haydn but had heard of his music and were curious as to what it sounded like.  Plus, in middle and upper class households,  the presence of at least one young lady able to play the harp or a keyboard instrument was almost taken for granted, and gentlemen with at least some facility on a musical instrument were usually not far away.

Precisely. Experiencing and appreciating a Haydn symphony as a piano reduction or as a chamber arrangement performed by amateurs during private evening gatherings is galaxies apart from how we  experience and appreciate it today. 

[Karl Henning]

Well, not galaxies apart. A visa application apart, I should think, though ; )

Gurn, we await word on the organ masses, you know . . . .

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, not galaxies apart. A visa application apart, I should think, though ; )

Gurn, we await word on the organ masses, you know . . . .

I ripped them last night, Karl, and will play this evening. I'm quite looking forward to it, since I've found that by and large, these older masses are far less available than the Great 6 or the Missa Cellensis #1. And as we recall, the Great Organ Solo Mass is also the one with the English Horns for such lovely tone color.

[Florestan]

Well, not galaxies apart. A visa application apart, I should think, though ; )

I don't get it, Karl.  Please elaborate. 

[Karl Henning]

Oh, I was simply scaling the distance back, my good Andrei.  I know that yours was a rhetorical exaggeration : )

[Florestan]

Oh, I was simply scaling the distance back, my good Andrei.  I know that yours was a rhetorical exaggeration : )

[jlaurson]

Perhaps of local interest, in this abode:


J. Haydn
Notturni & Scherzandi
Jessop Haydn Ensemble & Trinity Haydn Ensemble
Denis McCaldin
divine 2CDs
German link - UK link
Europe only, for the time being. In association with the Haydn Society of Great Britain.
This includes: Notturnis 1-8, Hob.II:25-32 and the Scherzandi 1-6, Hob.II:33-38