Haydn's Haus

[Gurn Blanston]

This is possibly idle speculation--but can we be certain there weren't symphonies before #1?   meaning compositions from his early days which Haydn didn't think enough of to conserve, or even to mention?  That #1 is not "the first symphony I wrote" but "the earliest symphony of mine which I think is actually worth listening to"?

I think it merely means "earliest manuscript of which we know"--and could apply to either one written by Haydn or one written by a copyist.

Not necessarily idle, except in the sense that there is no definitive answer. However, circumstantially it would be difficult to postulate an earlier symphony because previous to the Fürnburg-Morzin gig, he had no one to write one for. And given his straitened financial circumstances at the time, I would guess that his musical efforts were being expended on a combination of compositional practice for himself and keyboard lessons for his students. Which are the same thing, of course, and equal the early keyboard sonatas. Plus a little church music for that job too. Probably the closest he came were some of the bigger divertimentos.

[Gurn Blanston]

Symphony no. 37 (2)

Christopher Hogwood & The Academy of Ancient Music

Sinfonia festiva? 

Indeed it is!

You are such a hopeless Romantic, my friend.

Entertaining though.   0:)

[Florestan]

You are such a hopeless Romantic, my friend.

In the last days yes, I've been in a very Romantic frame of mind, probably because of my current reading:

A Romanian translation of Ricarda Huch's monumental two-volume work on German literary Romanticism.

Vol. 1: Die Blütezeit der Romantik (The Blossoming of Romanticism)
Vol. 2: Ausbreitung und Verfall der Romantik (Expansion and Decline of Romanticism)

An excellent dissection of the mind of the German Romantics. Although limited to literature, philosophy and science, the insights and comments can be fruitfully applied on musical philosophy as well.

And in respect with music I can only paraphrase Francis Bacon: A little philosophy Romanticism inclineth man's mind to atheism denigrate Classicism; but depth in philosophy Romanticism bringeth men's minds about to religion exalt Classicism. 

Entertaining though.   0:)

I aim to please. 

[Florestan]

Symphony no. 29 (39) in E major

Christopher Hogwood & The Academy of Ancient Music (recorded live at Eszterhaza Palace)

Nice joke there. They passed back and forth the melody in the Andante that many times that it was lost somewhere on the road and couldn't find its way back home in time for the Trio. 

The only quibble I have with this performance is that the Allegro di molto is rather an Allegretto. Judge for yourself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h75BwSD-EtA

But they more than make up for it in the spirited Presto.

Is anyone familiar with this book by none other than... the Hurwitzer himself?



The title at least is typically Hurwitz-ish, yet not far off the mark. 

To whom it might concern: I modified my signature. 

[Gurn Blanston]

Symphony no. 29 (39) in E major

Christopher Hogwood & The Academy of Ancient Music (recorded live at Eszterhaza Palace)

Nice joke there. They passed back and forth the melody in the Andante that many times that it was lost somewhere on the road and couldn't find its way back home in time for the Trio. 

The only quibble I have with this performance is that the Allegro di molto is rather an Allegretto. Judge for yourself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h75BwSD-EtA

But they more than make up for it in the spirited Presto.

Is anyone familiar with this book by none other than... the Hurwitzer himself?



The title at least is typically Hurwitz-ish, yet not far off the mark. 

Nice little work there. Note my notes on it in the blog post from last evening. Always a favorite. In the later than original printed versions, editors have commented in the notes that the Allegro di molto surely must be wrong. But it is rather unfortunate that editors have emended scores based on what they think it should be, and actually obliterated some of Haydn's original intentions. My guess is that if the tempo marking can't be made to work out as such, then that was intentional on Haydn's part and he was messing around with the players and laughing in his sleeve.

[Florestan]

Nice little work there. Note my notes on it in the blog post from last evening.

Your notes, sir, are precisely the reason I jumped to it.

Always a favorite. In the later than original printed versions, editors have commented in the notes that the Allegro di molto surely must be wrong.

The reason being... ?

But it is rather unfortunate that editors have emended scores based on what they think it should be, and actually obliterated some of Haydn's original intentions. My guess is that if the tempo marking can't be made to work out as such, then that was intentional on Haydn's part and he was messing around with the players and laughing in his sleeve.

Or messing around with editors: You rascals, if I wrote Allegro di molto that's exactly how it should be played and if it doesn't make sense to you or your small time orchestras then come to Eszterhaza and hear it as it should be. 

[Florestan]

E. T. A. Hoffmann's assessment of Haydn's music:

The expression of a child-like, serene mind, governs Haydn's compositions.  His symphonies lead us  to endlessly green pastures, to a merry, colorful throng of happy people.  Dancing youths and maidens are floating by; laughing children, hiding behind trees and rose bushes, throw flowers at each other.  A life full of love, of bliss, like before original sin, in eternal youth; no suffering, no pain, only a sweet, melancholy longing for a figure that floats by in the distance, at dusk, and does not come nearer, does not vanish, and, as long as it is present, it does not turn into night, since it is the evening glow, itself, in which mountains and fields are steeped.

Maybe. But then again maybe not.

[Karl Henning]

That E.T.A. Hoffman: what a romantic!

[Gurn Blanston]

I put in Bruggens vol. 1 of the Sturm und Drang symphonies, including #26.  Gurn you have this as #12.  It is a fantastic work, especially the first movement with the syncopated violin theme.  Movement #2 is hard to bring off, imo, with the quarter note ostinato making demands on the ensemble in order to avoid a bad effect.

This work came so early, but it is included in the S&D works?

Wait a minute, Gurn, you wrote this "some points to definitely not miss are #12(26) in E major" but on the Bruggen disc #26, and most others I have, list this as the D Minor work. 

Haydn numbers are a mess.



EDIT: Okay, I misunderstood your numbering.   

Sorry for the digression.

No, #12 in E major is actually Symphony #26.  Hoboken 26(46) (Lamentation) in d minor is the one you are talking about. Yes, it is a S & D work, not composed until 1768.



Digression is good, it makes the day go by.    I am still looking for a solution to referring to these works. I really like the New Chronology system, but it doesn't relate to anything unless you include the Hob # along with it.

[Gurn Blanston]

E. T. A. Hoffmann's assessment of Haydn's music:

The expression of a child-like, serene mind, governs Haydn's compositions.  His symphonies lead us  to endlessly green pastures, to a merry, colorful throng of happy people.  Dancing youths and maidens are floating by; laughing children, hiding behind trees and rose bushes, throw flowers at each other.  A life full of love, of bliss, like before original sin, in eternal youth; no suffering, no pain, only a sweet, melancholy longing for a figure that floats by in the distance, at dusk, and does not come nearer, does not vanish, and, as long as it is present, it does not turn into night, since it is the evening glow, itself, in which mountains and fields are steeped.

Maybe. But then again maybe not.

ETA Hoffmann was a major dipshit. The Hurwitzer of his day.

[Florestan]

The more I read about the (German) Romantics, the more I like them. That we live today in a world shaped by Romanticism is one of the greatest misconceptions in all cultural history. Our world could not be further from being a Romantic one, in the true sense of the word. Haydn's world was a thousand times more Romantic than ours. 

This quote from Ludwig Tieck, for instance:

He who does not love a flower, has lost all love and fear of God.

I wonder how many of our contemporaries would subscribe --- others than deep ecology crackpots, that is.   

(Digressions, digressions... )

[Gurn Blanston]

The more I read about the (German) Romantics, the more I like them. That we live today in a world shaped by Romanticism is one of the greatest misconceptions in all cultural history. Our world could not be further from being a Romantic one, in the true sense of the word. Haydn's world was a thousand times more Romantic than ours. 

I don't like anyone who bends history to fit with currently held conceptions. Hoffmann and other Romantics did that routinely and then rejected much of the past based on it not living up to the standards they have created for their present.

This quote from Ludwig Tieck, for instance:

He who does not love a flower, has lost all love and fear of God.

I wonder how many of our contemporaries would subscribe. 

(Digressions, digressions... )

I would subscribe to most of it. 0:)

[Florestan]

I don't like anyone who bends history to fit with currently held conceptions. Hoffmann and other Romantics did that routinely and then rejected much of the past based on it not living up to the standards they have created for their present.

Gurn, I'm sorry but... this is simply not true. If anything, "Hoffmann and other Romantics" revered a lot of the past --- the only problem being it was a past they invented rather than discovered. 

I would subscribe to most of it. 0:)

Quod erat demonstrandum: Haydn's world was a Romantic one. 

[mszczuj]

So I couldn't resist and went back to No.1.

Alas I have only Dorati recording and both Prestos are destroyed with so hated by me "einekleine" approach to the classical style. I'm sure they should be played with much more energy and with much more contrasted juxtaposing of diffrent kinds of instruments, in the way we imagine good played Rossini music (good played Rossini music is Rossini music played by Capella Coloniensis under Gabriele Ferro).

Of course I'm not quite sure if the HIP performances are any better - we are just starting to understand the XVIII century style and still imagine it as something similar rather to the rococo art not to the enlightenment literature.

But even most brilliantly performed Prestos have no chance to brilliant beside this unbelievable Andante. Here is this special gift of Haydn I have written about several days ago. Music just can't be better, more perfect, more philosophical, as it reaches the main (as someone said) purpose of the philosophy - stopping the run of the time. I'm sure he had thought about it deeply and for years before he wrote it. This is without any doubt not a kind of the nice melodic improvisation but the summa of all his experiences.

What a beginning!

[Gurn Blanston]

Gurn, I'm sorry but... this is simply not true. If anything, "Hoffmann and other Romantics" revered a lot of the past --- the only problem being it was a past they invented rather than discovered. 

Quod erat demonstrandum: Haydn's world was a Romantic one. 

And that differs in what significant way?  If you don't like the reality that you see, invent a new one.   I've met some people like that, so I can assume that Romanticism lives!?

[Florestan]

So I couldn't resist and went back to No.1.

Alas I have only Dorati recording and both Prestos are destroyed with so hated by me "einekleine" approach to the classical style. I'm sure they should be played with much more energy and with much more contrasted juxtaposing of diffrent kinds of instruments, in the way we imagine good played Rossini music (good played Rossini music is Rossini music played by Capella Coloniensis under Gabriele Ferro).

Of course I'm not quite sure if the HIP performances are any better - we are just starting to understand the XVIII century style and still imagine it as something similar rather to the rococo art not to the enlightenment literature.

But even most brilliantly performed Prestos have no chance to brilliant beside this unbelievable Andante. Here is this special gift of Haydn I have written about several days ago. Music just can't be better, more perfect, more philosophical as it reaches the main (as someone said) purpose of the philosophy - stopping the run of the time. I'm sure he had thought about it deeply and for years before he wrote it. This is without any doubt not a kind of the nice melodic improvisation but the summa of all his experiences.

What a beginning!

Nice post!

You can hear #1 with Adam Fischer & The Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra on Youtube.

[Gurn Blanston]

So I couldn't resist and went back to No.1.

Alas I have only Dorati recording and both Prestos are destroyed with so hated by me "einekleine" approach to the classical style. I'm sure they should be played with much more energy and with much more contrasted juxtaposing of diffrent kinds of instruments, in the way we imagine good played Rossini music (good played Rossini music is Rossini music played by Capella Coloniensis under Gabriele Ferro).

Of course I'm not quite sure if the HIP performances are any better - we are just starting to understand the XVIII century style and still imagine it as something similar rather to the rococo art not to the enlightenment literature.

But even most brilliantly performed Prestos have no chance to brilliant beside this unbelievable Andante. Here is this special gift of Haydn I have written about several days ago. Music just can't be better, more perfect, more philosophical as it reaches the main (as someone said) purpose of the philosophy - stopping the run of the time. I'm sure he had thought about it deeply and for years before he wrote it. This is without any doubt not a kind of the nice melodic improvisation but the summa of all his experiences.

What a beginning!

An ideal demonstration that the music can transcend the performance. I think Dorati did as well as he could, given what was known about Classical performance practice at that time. Certainly he did well enough to transmit Haydn's intentions and the beauty of his design and execution. I think you would like to hear Goodman in that piece especially. A lovely performance.

[Karl Henning]

It would be, alas! a wee bit Romantic to expect that Doráti might have approached "Papa" as conductors in our own day do . . . .

[Florestan]

If you don't like the reality that you see, invent a new one.

Romanticism in a nutshell.   

But then again: "One doesn't see well except with the heart. The essential is invisible for the eye." --- Antoine de Saint-Exupery  

[Gurn Blanston]

Romanticism in a nutshell.   

But then again: "One doesn't see well except with the heart. The essential is invisible for the eye." --- Antoine de Saint-Exupery  

Hard to encapsulate it better than that!  Of course, since my earliest days, this has been my downfall; I am a modern Thomas...