Haydn's Haus

[Gurn Blanston]

It would be, alas! a wee bit Romantic to expect that Doráti might have approached "Papa" as conductors in our own day do . . . .

I fear so, yes. However, kudos to him in so many ways for bringing Haydn out of the closet. Not just the symphonies but the operas too.

[Karl Henning]

Yes: we should not fail to give Doráti the great credit which he richly deserves.

[Florestan]

since my earliest days, this has been my downfall; I am a modern Thomas...

Nothing wrong with that, AFAIC.

[Florestan]

I fear so, yes. However, kudos to him in so many ways for bringing Haydn out of the closet. Not just the symphonies but the operas too.

Yes: we should not fail to give Doráti the great credit which he richly deserves.

Dorati should be applauded heartily for recording ALL the Haydn symphonies at a time when the idea of doing that certainly not commonplace among other conductors or record labels.

+ 1.

[Florestan]

The expression of a child-like, serene mind, governs Haydn's compositions.  His symphonies lead us  to endlessly green pastures, to a merry, colorful throng of happy people.  Dancing youths and maidens are floating by; laughing children, hiding behind trees and rose bushes, throw flowers at each other.  A life full of love, of bliss, like before original sin, in eternal youth; no suffering, no pain[...]

Well, this is rigorously true about one my favorite Haydn works:  the Concerto for two lire organizzate, two violins, two violas, cello, doublebass, and two horns in C major Hob VIIh :1

1st movement: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOPtU0k7Zaw

2nd movement: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvLeuLrdhog

3rd movement: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH71dxtzNEo

If anyone knows of a more pure and innocent music, please let me know, but I strongly doubt it. This is indeed music from before the original sin.

[Mandryka]

E. T. A. Hoffmann's assessment of Haydn's music:

The expression of a child-like, serene mind, governs Haydn's compositions.  His symphonies lead us  to endlessly green pastures, to a merry, colorful throng of happy people.  Dancing youths and maidens are floating by; laughing children, hiding behind trees and rose bushes, throw flowers at each other.  A life full of love, of bliss, like before original sin, in eternal youth; no suffering, no pain, only a sweet, melancholy longing for a figure that floats by in the distance, at dusk, and does not come nearer, does not vanish, and, as long as it is present, it does not turn into night, since it is the evening glow, itself, in which mountains and fields are steeped.

Maybe. But then again maybe not.

This reminds me of some of the things that his earliest biographers said about Haydn the man, Dies emphasises Haydn's cheerfulness. That comment "like before original sin" reminds me of how Griesinger talks about Haydn's naive modesty, at least when he was younger. I suspect that all this is part of some sort of myth making designed to widen the gap between Haydn from Beethoven.

What's maybe most surprising is that Hoffman doesn't talk about the sense of being full of new ideas that I think is really prominent in Haydn. Maybe Hoffman talks about that elsewhere.

The comment about Mahler that someone else posted is interesting. There's a sense of readiness to experiment with new things that I hear in the greatest Mahler, 3, 7 and maybe  9. That's not unlike the way that Haydn's music is often brimming over with ideas.

[mszczuj]

An ideal demonstration that the music can transcend the performance.

Fortunately I always use doublehear while listening to the Classical Era Music without performing to many other activities. I hear actual performance and simultaneously the other one with phrases far more expressive because they use some kind of rubato which is precisely dependent on their position in tonal labirynth, on their place in the row of other phrases and on other aspects of their meaning.

I think Dorati did as well as he could, given what was known about Classical performance practice at that time. Certainly he did well enough to transmit Haydn's intentions and the beauty of his design and execution.

Of course he is the great conductor and one of the greatest Haydn masters ever. May be even the greatest. I really think so. I didn't mean to despise him in any way. But it was 1972 and all wanted to play music of the Classical Era as if it was music of the Neoclassical Era. And for music of 1750s it was even more destructive than for 1790s. We still tend to think about these composers and listeners as if they were unexperienced beginners who build something absolutely new ex nihilo after the death of the great musical tradition of Baroque. But it was the world of great spiritual movement, this symphony is contemporary to Candide and to the beginnings of Tristram Shandy, it is probably naive to think that the listeners were not so refined in this time as were the readers.

I think you would like to hear Goodman in that piece especially. A lovely performance.

Yes, I hope so. Alas I have no time and funds to begin this exploration now. But some day my time will come.

[Karl Henning]

This reminds me of some of the things that his earliest biographers said about Haydn the man, Dies emphasises Haydn's cheerfulness. That comment "like before original sin" reminds me of how Griesinger talks about Haydn's naive modesty, at least when he was younger. I suspect that all this is part of some sort of myth making designed to widen the gap between Haydn from Beethoven.

Or, you know, maybe the two men had markedly different characters.

[Gurn Blanston]

This reminds me of some of the things that his earliest biographers said about Haydn the man, Dies emphasises Haydn's cheerfulness. That comment "like before original sin" reminds me of how Griesinger talks about Haydn's naive modesty, at least when he was younger. I suspect that all this is part of some sort of myth making designed to widen the gap between Haydn from Beethoven.

What's maybe most surprising is that Hoffman doesn't talk about the sense of being full of new ideas that I think is really prominent in Haydn. Maybe Hoffman talks about that elsewhere.

No, he doesn't talk about it elsewhere. Don't be fooled by the pleasant tone of Hoffmann's statement; he is making every possible effort to denigrate Haydn compared to Beethoven and also Mozart (which doesn't show up in this quote, but does in several others). He used Haydn as a comparison because Haydn was the most popular composer in the world at that time, and he is saying nothing more nor less that Haydn was a lightweight compared to Beethoven and a little bit of late Mozart. The unfortunate thing is that he succeeded in this effort and Haydn slipped into relative obscurity for over 100 years afterwards. As I said to Florestan earlier, if the facts don't suit your purpose, just make some up.

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, Hoffmann is mainly known for his tales.

  True enough!

[Mandryka]

No, he doesn't talk about it elsewhere. Don't be fooled by the pleasant tone of Hoffmann's statement; he is making every possible effort to denigrate Haydn compared to Beethoven and also Mozart (which doesn't show up in this quote, but does in several others). He used Haydn as a comparison because Haydn was the most popular composer in the world at that time, and he is saying nothing more nor less that Haydn was a lightweight compared to Beethoven and a little bit of late Mozart. The unfortunate thing is that he succeeded in this effort and Haydn slipped into relative obscurity for over 100 years afterwards. As I said to Florestan earlier, if the facts don't suit your purpose, just make some up.

That's interesting. I think early (pre Hoffman maybe) critics valued Haydn's inventiveness.

[Gurn Blanston]

That's interesting. I think early (pre Hoffman maybe) critics valued Haydn's inventiveness.

Absolutely right. Before the AMZ (Allgemeine musikalische Zeitung (General music journal)) was started ~1797, there really weren't a lot of critics out there, in Vienna anyway. The first few years of critiques in the AMZ were adoring of Haydn. Early times, the German critics centered around Berlin/Potsdam were critical because they were critical of all Austrians because they weren't straitlaced rule-following types, and Haydn was considered a ringleader. After 1780 or so, that changed, more because they changed than because he did.

The Brits loved everything about Haydn until post 1800, and that was little to do with him and much to do with external influences plus the English translation of The Creation.

The 'war' between Beethoven and Haydn (or their followers, more like) was bitter indeed on Beethoven's side, and like all 'musical wars' from that time, much hinged on being 'the winner'. Beethoven's followers, like Gluck's in 1760 Paris and Wagner's in 1870 Germany, were determined to vanquish all opposition to their man's musical supremacy. We can laugh at this now for the silly shit it clearly is, but for the intelligentsia of the times, it was damned near life and death!

[Karl Henning]

Sort of like Stockhausen's "supremacy" . . . .

(* shhhhh *)

[Gurn Blanston]

For anyone who has been looking for this disk (as I have) at a reasonable price, I just bought it from eBay brand new for $12.37. This is ~ half what it cost when it used to be available on AMP, which it isn't any longer. The seller claims to have 9 more copies available. This is reputedly an outstanding version of Haydn's only cantata mass.

[Florestan]

Haydn is like a child, for there is no knowing what he will do next. - John Keats



I maintain that given the high esteem in which the Romantics held children and everything childlike, neither Hoffmann's nor Keats' remarks are in the least derogatory, on the contrary, they are intended as a compliment. 

[Karl Henning]

Keats certainly means it for a compliment, meseems.

[Sergeant Rock]

So I couldn't resist and went back to No.1. Alas I have only Dorati recording and both Prestos are destroyed with so hated by me "einekleine" approach to the classical style. I'm sure they should be played with much more energy

I think you would like to hear Goodman in that piece especially. A lovely performance.

Goodman's is a lovely performance indeed but not that different in overall feel than Dorati (first movement timings are almost indentical). If mszczuj wants to hear a performance about as far from "einekleine" as possible, and with absolutely manic energy, he must hear Fey and the Heidelbergers 



The opening can be heard here, track 1

Fey takes the presto marking seriously. It's as bracing as a jolt of expresso.

Sarge

[Karl Henning]

Goodman's is a lovely performance indeed but not that different in overall feel than Dorati (first movement timings are almost indentical). If mszczuj wants to hear a performance about as far from "einekleine" as possible, and with absolutely manic energy, he must hear Fey and the Heidelbergers 



The opening can be heard here, track 1

Fey takes the presto marking seriously. It's as bracing as a jolt of expresso.

Sold, Sarge! Snaffled up the mp3 album based on that sample.

[Florestan]

Gurn, two questions for you, please.

1. I would have expected that the manuscripts of all the Eszterhazy symphonies be kept and found in the Eszterhaza library, for 2 logical reasons: (a) they were specifically written for Nikolaus, so he must have felt somehow their owner, and (b) for further use: if the prince wanted to hear a specific symphony several years after it was composed, he went to the library, pull out the score and asked for it to be performed. I infer from the difficulty in cataloguing them that this was not the case. Why?

2. Around 1810, how many of the symphonies were routinely performed in concerts in Austria and the German States?

TIA.

[Sergeant Rock]

Espresso.

I just had a one.

Please, please don't listen to Fey now. You might overdose 

Sarge