Haydn's Haus

[Karl Henning]

Progress does not exist in human creation of beauty things.

I dunno. This has the look of denial.

That childishly simple, I think the thesis indefensible.

[DavidW]

Brüggen. I really like his weightiness.

I also have a very interesting one from Harnoncourt, unpublished, with SWR Sinfonieorchester in 1984.


.

I wish Bruggen were more easily available, he deserves to remain in print.  His Schubert cycle is excellent.  I want to hear more of his conducting.

[kishnevi]

I dunno. This has the look of denial.

That childishly simple, I think the thesis indefensible.

I think Gordon is making a valid point.   Even if you posit some abstract Platonic Idea of Beauty,  you can't say that humans are moving towards attaining it from a less beautiful past.  Otherwise you'd be saying that Corigliano's Violin Concerto is inherently more beautiful than Tchaikovsky's.  Well, perhaps it is,  but if it is, it's not because it has some privileged position in terms of chronology.  And most forms of beauty, even within a single field of human endeavor,  can't be compared for beauty.  "Is Mahler's Ninth more beautiful than Palestrina's Missa Papa Marcellae?" is to ask a question that can't be answered,  except perhaps in overtly subjective terms.   You can't even rightly ask if a symphony by Beethoven or Brahms is more "beautiful" than a symphony by Haydn.

[Gurn Blanston]

As a rule, humans are inherently incapable of viewing a progression as other than improvement from one to the next. The words aren't even readily available to adequately express the concept otherwise. 'Progress' itself is a synonym to 'improvement'. That is, if one posits 'progress' to be inseparable from continued improvement. Which most people do, I think.

On this specific topic, I have micro-cosmically addressed the idea that the progression of Haydn's music isn't indicative of an improvement in quality, per se, but rather it is an extended series of developments of different facets of the musical language. So even if you prefer the late symphonies to the early ones, that doesn't mean they are qualitatively better, it means that they are speaking a language which strikes a deeper chord with you. The early works were just as mature within their own style as the later works in theirs. A gradual improvement from first to last is actually non-existent. There is an accretion of new concepts being developed and incorporated until the work sounds like something different, but this doesn't invalidate the quality of what came before. What you are really experiencing is a move into a style range that is more comfortable to you and speaks to you.

[Madiel]

I dunno. I haven't heard many really REALLY great pop albums since 2004. It's all downhill.

[Mandryka]

I wish Bruggen were more easily available, he deserves to remain in print.  His Schubert cycle is excellent.  I want to hear more of his conducting.

But it is easily available, it's even on spotify and googleplay. I think you have to get used  to the idea that the compact disc is dead.

[George]

I dunno. I haven't heard many really REALLY great pop albums since 2004. It's all downhill.

Keane's Under the Iron Sea, Foxy Shazam's Self titled Album and Foxy Shazam's Welcome to the Church of Rock and Roll are (IMO) three REALLY great post 2004 pop albums. However, I would certainly agree with anyone who said that there was a general decline in the quality of pop music after about 1994.

[Karl Henning]

You make a valid point, Jeffrey, and if that was Gordon's point, I heartily wish he had made it, and confined himself to it

There is the avuncular assurance (here, alas! a little disingenuous) that the matter is "childishly simple," yet in that brief statement, he loads negative baggage onto the word "progress" which is absolutely unchildlike.

Your point, that the Beautiful of its nature is timeless, and the idea of Progress does not apply, is (I should think) a given. But the assertion that there is no progress in the practice of art? (For the "childish simplicity" here strikes me as little more than lassitude.) Not the reasonably nuanced "there are aspects of the progress which I find æsthetically questionable," but just, "nope, ain't no sech thing."

In the Art of Music, alone, there are myriad facets of progress. (What, the fully chromatic concert harp is not an instance of progress? And once we acknowledge the obvious -- that it is progress -- is there anyone present who has a serious æsthetic problem with it?)

Let's bring this back to the thread topic. Who among us Haydn enthusiasts seriously believes that our "Papa" did not make progress in his practice of composition over a long and wonderfully productive career? Who denies that exposure to "Papa's" string quartets was a catalyst (I think I use that correctly) for progress in Mozart's composition

I shall pause and wait for an answer

[Madiel]

But it is easily available, it's even on spotify and googleplay. I think you have to get used  to the idea that the compact disc is dead.

Only when the alternatives stop being shitty. Cf everything I've said on the thread about spotify.  If THAT'S the future, they'll be prising CDs out of my cold, dead hands.

[Gurn Blanston]

You make a valid point, Jeffrey, and if that was Gordon's point, I heartily wish he had made it, and confined himself to it

There is the avuncular assurance (here, alas! a little disingenuous) that the matter is "childishly simple," yet in that brief statement, he loads negative baggage onto the word "progress" which is absolutely unchildlike.

Your point, that the Beautiful of its nature is timeless, and the idea of Progress does not apply, is (I should think) a given. But the assertion that there is no progress in the practice of art? (For the "childish simplicity" here strikes me as little more than lassitude.) Not the reasonably nuanced "there are aspects of the progress which I find æsthetically questionable," but just, "nope, ain't no sech thing."

In the Art of Music, alone, there are myriad facets of progress. (What, the fully chromatic concert harp is not an instance of progress? And once we acknowledge the obvious -- that it is progress -- is there anyone present who has a serious æsthetic problem with it?)

Let's bring this back to the thread topic. Who among us Haydn enthusiasts seriously believes that our "Papa" did not make progress in his practice of composition over a long and wonderfully productive career? Who denies that exposure to "Papa's" string quartets was a catalyst (I think I use that correctly) for progress in Mozart's composition

I shall pause and wait for an answer

Clearly you hadn't read my post yet, since it could be easily construed from it that I don't necessarily believe those things en masse.   

As a rule, humans are inherently incapable of viewing a progression as other than improvement from one to the next. The words aren't even readily available to adequately express the concept otherwise. 'Progress' itself is a synonym to 'improvement'. That is, if one posits 'progress' to be inseparable from continued improvement. Which most people do, I think.

On this specific topic, I have micro-cosmically addressed the idea that the progression of Haydn's music isn't indicative of an improvement in quality, per se, but rather it is an extended series of developments of different facets of the musical language. So even if you prefer the late symphonies to the early ones, that doesn't mean they are qualitatively better, it means that they are speaking a language which strikes a deeper chord with you. The early works were just as mature within their own style as the later works in theirs. A gradual improvement from first to last is actually non-existent. There is an accretion of new concepts being developed and incorporated until the work sounds like something different, but this doesn't invalidate the quality of what came before. What you are really experiencing is a move into a style range that is more comfortable to you and speaks to you.

[Parsifal]

But it is easily available, it's even on spotify and googleplay. I think you have to get used  to the idea that the compact disc is dead.

Only when the alternatives stop being shitty. Cf everything I've said on the thread about spotify.  If THAT'S the future, they'll be prising CDs out of my cold, dead hands.

The claim that the CD is dead is absurd.  The download/streaming culture has certainly eclipsed high quality audio formats for pop music.  But serious listeners are not going to abandon the CD until the non-physical-media alternatives achieve equivalent quality, which at the moment is limited to lossless downloads which a few of the record labels currently make available.  I have a few of those, but they are currently more awkward to use than the physical media.

[North Star]

If the CD is dead, I'm a necrophiliac.

[Gurn Blanston]

I'm a necrophiliac.

We try to minimize our fetishes here in Da Haus, although that northern climate in known to do some strange things...   

In any case, on topic, I agree. The download/streaming business is going to have to come up with something really good to get me to un-ass my CD's and move into the imaginary music world. 

[Parsifal]

To return to the topic at hand, next year is the 80th anniversary of Bruggen's birth, so I'm hoping for re-release of his Philips recordings, including the Haydn.  I have his Philips DUO releases of the London Symphonies and one original Philips release including Symphonies 88 and 89 (I think).  But there is more worth hearing.

[Gurn Blanston]

To return to the topic at hand, next year is the 80th anniversary of Bruggen's birth, so I'm hoping for re-release of his Philips recordings, including the Haydn.  I have his Philips DUO releases of the London Symphonies and one original Philips release including Symphonies 88 and 89 (I think).  But there is more worth hearing.

I have a very attractive 10 disk box on Decca called 'The Art of Frans Brüggen' with Rameau, Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert & Mendelssohn. The Haydn is Symphonies 96, 100 & 104.




Certainly it is the basis for an expanded edition.

[mszczuj]

I would say that in the early Haydn music is some special quality which is absent in hi later works. Late Haydn built incomparable wondrous machines to achieve his goals, but early Haydn made it with one click.

[mszczuj]

Isn't Haydn ahead of Brian now?

[Gurn Blanston]

I would say that in the early Haydn music is some special quality which is absent in hi later works. Late Haydn built incomparable wondrous machines to achieve his goals, but early Haydn made it with one click.

That works for me, I know exactly what you are saying.   

Isn't Haydn ahead of Brian now?

We mustn't taunt, mszczuj.   0:)

[Sergeant Rock]

I've Brüggen's set of Sturm und Drang symphonies plus 90, 93, 101, 103....all very good performances.





Sarge

[North Star]

We try our fetishes here in Da Haus with something really good...

See how easy it is to quote out of context.
It looks like your fetish is Haydn - no surprises there...
Enough.

I'm not sure if I should get the DRD box, since I tend to prefer HIP, lightness and lively tempi and rhythms - the Weil box would seem to be a better idea, even if it's only 7 CD's - or perhaps that's another benefit.