Haydn's Haus

[Florestan]

If everyone's tastes were precisely congruent we would all listen to obscure Late Romantic orchestral music and write long posts to ourselves about it.

Bah, humbug! If everyone's taste were precisely congruent with mine --- thus logically following that everyone's tastes were precisely congruent, period --- obscure Late Romantic orchestral music would get the second prize; the first would go, ex aequo, to obscure Baroque and Classical orchestral music. 

[Florestan]

No doubt, Gurn. I can even enjoy some "old crap" here and there, as - I think-  I have given up the superstition of "progress". 

The progress has become a superstition more degradant and vile than all those which are fought against in its name. --- Miguel de Unamuno

When a child, Osip Mandelstam burst into violent tears when first hearing the word "progress", according to his wife Nadezhda.

[Brahmsian]

Haydn Project (the non-Emerson SQ one)  continues...

Today's 2 discs, # 26 and # 8 of the DRD set.

Disc 26

Symphony No. 76 in E flat major
Symphony No. 77 in B flat major (very sublime Andante sostenuto)
Symphony No. 78 in C minor (fantastic final movement!) 

Disc 8

Symphony No. 16 in B flat major
Symphony No. 34 in D minor
Symphony No. 72 in D major (beautiful dialogue between flute and violin in the Andante mvt., and gorgeous Andante variations in the final mvt.  This symphony REALLY stands out, for me) 

[Gurn Blanston]

Bah, humbug! If everyone's taste were precisely congruent with mine --- thus logically following that everyone's tastes were precisely congruent, period --- obscure Late Romantic orchestral music would get the second prize; the first would go, ex aequo, to obscure Baroque and Classical orchestral music. 

Those two choices were made for larger reasons than arbitrariness though, so we'll have to go with them for now. Did you know that there is more knowledge available about obscure Baroque music than there is about obcscure Classical. Just  a nugget I picked up in the great here and there.

[Gurn Blanston]

Haydn Project (the non-Emerson SQ one)  continues...

Today's 2 discs, # 26 and # 8 of the DRD set.

Disc 26

Symphony No. 76 in E flat major
Symphony No. 77 in B flat major (very sublime Andante sostenuto)
Symphony No. 78 in C minor (fantastic final movement!) 

Disc 8

Symphony No. 16 in B flat major
Symphony No. 34 in D minor
Symphony No. 72 in D major (beautiful dialogue between flute and violin in the Andante mvt., and gorgeous Andante variations in the final mvt.  This symphony REALLY stands out, for me) 

Another crop of excellence! Another thing about that #72 is that it has 4 horn parts. It is a pair with #31 'Horn-signal' where H took advantage for a short time of having 4 horns available. It was a luxury!   

[TheGSMoeller]

Haydn Project (the non-Emerson SQ one)  continues...

Today's 2 discs, # 26 and # 8 of the DRD set.

Disc 26

Symphony No. 76 in E flat major
Symphony No. 77 in B flat major (very sublime Andante sostenuto)
Symphony No. 78 in C minor (fantastic final movement!) 

Disc 8

Symphony No. 16 in B flat major
Symphony No. 34 in D minor
Symphony No. 72 in D major (beautiful dialogue between flute and violin in the Andante mvt., and gorgeous Andante variations in the final mvt.  This symphony REALLY stands out, for me) 

Yes, nice crop. The 34 stands out for me as it's one of Haydn's church sonata symphonies with an opening Adagio.

[Madiel]

This is a good observation and a point that hasn't been raised yet. One of the more interesting topics for essays in the Haydn literature is what consisted the audience for various genres of works at different times. And consequently what aspect of the music arose to meet a specific audience requirement. An example is the loud, attention getting introduction at the beginning of the quartets Op 71/74, since they were being played in a concert hall in London. This stylistic change is clearly tied to a goal (the fact that as a unit of music it dates back at least to the Italian opera overture isn't relevant). I would like to hear some thoughts about other examples.

Well if you want other HAYDN examples, you just took the main one that I know about... The only other thing I can immediately think of is that at least one of the London symphonies has a solo to show off Salomon.  Such solos arguably not, normally, being part of the symphonic 'ideal'.

[Gurn Blanston]

Well if you want other HAYDN examples, you just took the main one that I know about... The only other thing I can immediately think of is that at least one of the London symphonies has a solo to show off Salomon.  Such solos arguably not, normally, being part of the symphonic 'ideal'.

Yes, well this is true. One of them has an extended obbligato cello solo too, and #98 closes with a neat little keyboard solo that Haydn himself played.  And you know, that's a musical idea that goes all the way back to symphonies #6, 7 & 8, which are rife with solos. Not a whole lot in between though.

[Karl Henning]

To qualitatively measure a piece of music, one must first work out what it was trying to achieve.

Begging your pardon, this strikes me as wrong-headed. Among all of us here at GMG, who thinks there is any point to "qualitative measurement" of a work of art?

My point being, that Progress in music (if that be the context for your remark) does not require qualitative management.

[Madiel]

Begging your pardon, this strikes me as wrong-headed. Among all of us here at GMG, who thinks there is any point to "qualitative measurement" of a work of art?

My point being, that Progress in music (if that be the context for your remark) does not require qualitative management.

That is the context of my remark.  And pointing out the inherent problems of trying to assert progress is my purpose.

Not that I think that identifying 'progress' is impossible.  But people need to be very precise: progress at what exactly? Because it's far to easy to just advocate Progress as some vague abstract idea, and then it becomes entirely possible to prove just about anything with very subjective statements.

I think there are plenty of examples around of composers trying to achieve particular things and gradually, over time and a series of compositions, mastering that particular thing.  But I would say that all of those composers knew what it was they were trying to do and could therefore properly assess whether they were in fact doing it.

In short, it DOES require some kind of qualitative management. You can't make progress if you don't actually have a goal.  Without a goal it's not progress, it's just movement.

[DavidW]

Can this discussion be moved to another thread?  It has nothing to do with Haydn.

On topic: I listened to the Angeles Quartet performing Op 77 last night.  Man those almost Beethovenian SQs are awesome!  It's been awhile since I listened to them.

[Karl Henning]

Can this discussion be moved to another thread?  It has nothing to do with Haydn.

On topic: I listened to the Angeles Quartet performing Op 77 last night.  Man those almost Beethovenian SQs are awesome!  It's been awhile since I listened to them.

How do you like the Angeles Qt in these generally, Davey? (And I am going to listen to that Jerusalem Qt disc later this morning, that Gurn and others have spoken highly of . . . .)

[DavidW]

How do you like the Angeles Qt in these generally, Davey? (And I am going to listen to that Jerusalem Qt disc later this morning, that Gurn and others have spoken highly of . . . .)

Top shelf!  I'm surprised that Gurn would rec a non-PI group!

[Gurn Blanston]

Top shelf!  I'm surprised that Gurn would rec a non-PI group!

I am live and let live. Actually, I believe Sarge is the one that was all over this one. I bet that makes it more believable. 

[mc ukrneal]

That Jerusalem Quartet disc of Haydn quartets (vol 2) is still available at Berkshire for anyone who would like to pick it up at an attractive price.

[Karl Henning]

Why, Gurn, you (as well as Sarge, come to that) enjoy our highest confidence, you know that.

That Jerusalem Quartet disc of Haydn quartets (vol 2) is still available at Berkshire for anyone who would like to pick it up at an attractive price.

Just noted that that cover says Vol. 2 . . . .

[Karl Henning]

Well, the quality of quality is tough to pin down. The quality of which you speak here (which I agree with you, let it be said) can be illustrated easily enough. Hypothetically, you have the idea for inserting a deceptive cadence at the end of the development. The way you did it in your 2nd symphony is not the way you would do it in your 63rd. That is improved craftsmanship and yes, certainly qualitative improvement. But what I am after here is the idea of using a deceptive cadence there, and the stylistic sense that lets you know it is the right thing to do. The idea is the beginning of the art process. The continuation of the process comes in the style judgement. The execution of it is the culmination. So, what I am saying is that two out of three of these things are equally present from the beginning; the idea and the stylistic sense. The craftsmanship will certainly be improved,  I'm just not sure that this constitutes 'better music' with its corollary implication that what came before is deficient. It is difficult for me to express this more clearly, ignorant bastard that I am.

Wasn't sure if I had acknowledged this (first day in harness at the new M.D. gig yesterday A.M.) Your parsing as idea, stylistic sense and execution, though not exhaustive, is sound, and perceptive.  I don't think the clarity of your expression here is anything deficient 

[kishnevi]

Why, Gurn, you (as well as Sarge, come to that) enjoy our highest confidence, you know that.

Just noted that that cover says Vol. 2 . . . .

Volume 1 is available in the original issue and as part of HM's Haydn anniversary re-issues/releases


Contains (to save you squinting at the second cover) Op. 64/5, Op. 76/2, Op. 77/1

[TheGSMoeller]

Volume 1 is available in the original issue and as part of HM's Haydn anniversary re-issues/releases


Contains (to save you squinting at the second cover) Op. 64/5, Op. 76/2, Op. 77/1

Those Jerusalem discs are like "Haydn's Greatest Hits" for string quartet, especially Vol.2 for me, featuring my favorite from Op.20 and Op.33.

[kishnevi]

Those Jerusalem discs are like "Haydn's Greatest Hits" for string quartet, especially Vol.2 for me, featuring my favorite from Op.20 and Op.33.

I have to confess that I don't have a favorite among the quartets.  It's rather a case of

When I'm not with the one I love
I love the one I'm with

And, also in confession mode,  there's not a recording from the Jerusalem Quartet I don't like--and I think I have them all (there may be one early one that's escaped my dragnet).