Haydn's Haus

[Florestan]

This is also expensive for my wallet, but highly tempting...



Should I, sometimes in the future?...

[alkan]

I would vote for ANYONE above Kuijken. I had his Paris symphonies and I thought they were dreadful. I am in the minority on this matter, so take that for what it's worth.

There is nothing more subjective than music !!

But I am curious to hear the reasons that caused you to react so strongly against Kuijken's version of the Paris symphonies.    I have these recordings to and whilst I would rate them slightly lower than his London symphonies, I still enjoy them very much.   

Which recordings do you prefer?

Thanks

[Gurn Blanston]

This is also expensive for my wallet, but highly tempting...



Should I, sometimes in the future?...

I've been looking at that too. I like Augér's voice so much that I can nearly overcome my distaste for the modern piano. Let me know what you think.

[Karl Henning]

Gurn must answer, but I had taken that as ". . . in this literature."

[Gurn Blanston]

Hi Gurn,

Is that in all works, like the romantic era ones, too?

No, those were written for modern piano, so I find it totally appropriate. Doesn't matter though, since I don't listen to modern music like that.

Gurn must answer, but I had taken that as ". . . in this literature."

Just so...

[Karl Henning]

Wig powdered to Mijnheer's satisfaction?

[Gurn Blanston]

Wig powdered to Mijnheer's satisfaction?

*takes pinch of snuff*  Why yes, nice work, lackey!  *sneezes* 

[mc ukrneal]

There is nothing more subjective than music !!

But I am curious to hear the reasons that caused you to react so strongly against Kuijken's version of the Paris symphonies.    I have these recordings to and whilst I would rate them slightly lower than his London symphonies, I still enjoy them very much.   

Which recordings do you prefer?

Thanks

Sure. I can do that. Let me start with how I picked Kuijkin in the first place. At the time, I had virtually no symphonies - just the Londons (with Davis). I was not really focused on HIP or modern, but just a good recording of the Paris symphonies (and the Paris symphonies seemed the natural next buy). I picked the Kuijkin, because there seemed to be pretty universal praise for them (in terms of speeds, transparency, and overall sound). As a result, my expectations were high. I include this just to lay the foundation.

I will use the Bear (#82) to compare, because it is one of my favorites and is first on the the disc (and thus easier to compare with the comparison Bear under Fischer). I only have these two recordings of this particular symphony (for reference, I do have a disc or two of Norrington and Orpheus in other symphonies, while my library has Dorati).

There are three big problems I have:
1. Sound - The biggest issue here is that bass/low reister instruments are lacking. This creates an imbalance in the sound, but makes it high pitched sounding with not enough presence from the bottom. Fischer has a strong bass/low register sound, reinforced by the reverb. For me, this makes the piece uncomfortable to listen to (Kuijkin).
2. Balance - As mentioned, the balance is totally out of whack with the violin and similarly high pitched instruments overly dominant. It almost sounds like a violin concerto - it's that bad.
3. Phrasing - It is too stacatto, so much so that there are often gaps in the playing (where the silence is left to go on for too long). This utterly destroys the flow and the overall line. This is not to say that every note is played this way, just that this is the impact it creates. This impact is evident in the very opening, in fact in just the first 10-15 seconds. I could be willing to forgive some of the more temporary issues, but losing the line is a major no-no in my book.

This recording is often praised for its transparency, and I agree that it is a strength, except that in this case it simply makes all the problems from 1, 2 and 3 stand out even more. Thus, its strength becomes a major liability.

I find I like the rubato/change in speeds of the Fischer better than the more consistent Kuijkin (except that it can become monochromatic at times) - though only really in the opening movement.  The Fischer is also smoother.

There are other issues, but really these are the most telling for me. The result is that I simply cannot take it. Admittedly, 82 is the worst and it does seem to improve in the second grouping (88-92). Perhaps they were recorded at a different time - I have not checked. Anyway, that about sums it up.

[Roberto]

There are three big problems I have:

Very helpful post! As for the sound: the forceful low register is important for me too (with forceful timpani  )

[Gurn Blanston]

....it does seem to improve in the second grouping (88-92). Perhaps they were recorded at a different time - I have not checked. Anyway, that about sums it up.

Well, you know, they are two different orchestras, so one will expect some differences. The 'Paris' set is the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment, while the balance of them are Les Petites Bande.

I have settled on Harnoncourt for the Paris works. Kuijken/LPB are very satisfactory (but not alone) in the others.

[Gurn Blanston]

Ok, one last question, so to you, modern is post-classical period?

Post-Schubert. 0:)

[mc ukrneal]

As you can see, we disagree completely.

Ain't it grand!

[Gurn Blanston]

Yes, it's a good one although I have a few quibbles. The Nimbus sound is rather congested compared to Fey (his recording of the Horn Concerto and "Hornsignal"). In Goodman's Symphony the horns occasionally overwhelm the rest of the orchestra. The Hänssler is better balanced, the sections and instruments distinct, audible but nothing dominating, everything easy to hear. Whether it's the Nimbus sonics or Hampstead's natural tone, he sounds slightly muffled when he isn't playing forté. Bruns for Fey produces a brighter tone overall. That doesn't mean Bruns is better, just different. Goodman's way with the Concerto is probably the way it should go but I like how Fey turns it into a Sturm und Drang piece    And, believe it or not, I enjoy Fey's harpsichordist in the Concerto! (No...HIP aliens have not taken over my body ) He adds some delightful curlicues and flourishes. This is one time I wish Goodman's harpsichord were more prominent (I can't believe I said that....maybe I have been assimilated  )

But despite the above, I do really enjoy Goodman's performances too.

Sarge

Thanks for that report, Sarge. Very interesting.

It doesn't surprise me in some ways that the Hännsler sound is better, that jibes up with my experience over the years. I'm curious if you chose Fey for comparison because it is your favorite? I haven't heard it, the only MI Hornsignal I've heard is Fischer, which is also very good.

It is my opinion that the differences in the horn sound do not lie with the players but with the nature of the instruments. Modern horns, of course, have rotary valves, while natural horns involve sticking ones hand in the bell to make chromatic notes. This naturally causes some muffling such as you describe. There is a lot to be said for the modern horn!

I am stunned over your admission about the harpsichord! Is this truly our Sarge, or a pod-creature!    Well, as I've stated many times here, I go both ways on the harpsichord front, actually not having a preference. I have been considering snapping up that particular Fey disk while it is still readily available. Perhaps I will do on my next order.

[Old Listener]

I would vote for ANYONE above Kuijken. I had his Paris symphonies and I thought they were dreadful. I am in the minority on this matter, so take that for what it's worth.

The Kuijken Paris symphony CDs are among the few CDs I have gotten rid of after years of trying to find some merit in them.

Bill

[TheGSMoeller]

Enjoy Haydn, no matter which conductor!

This is true, the notes in the score don't lie. 

[Wakefield]

This is true, the notes in the score don't lie. 

That's the reason why I buy discs, not scores. Those "liars" are a lot of fun. 

[Sergeant Rock]

Thanks for that report, Sarge. Very interesting.
It doesn't surprise me in some ways that the Hännsler sound is better, that jibes up with my experience over the years. I'm curious if you chose Fey for comparison because it is your favorite? I haven't heard it, the only MI Hornsignal I've heard is Fischer, which is also very good.

Fey employs PI brass and horns. I chose Fey because his soloist, Bruns, uses a natural horn like Hampstead. Despite that, he produces a somewhat brighter sound than Hampstead. I don't know if Fey is my favorite 31. I haven't compared it to all my Hornsignals. I normally just enjoy what I'm currently listening to without thinking too critically. Besides Fey and Goodman, I have Hogwood, Fischer and Mackerras.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

Don't tell James, but that sentence pretty much sums me up.

Your secret is safe with me 

Sarge

[Karl Henning]

The truth is even greater fun, and beautiful to boot  0:)

[Karl Henning]

Pfffftttt