Author Topic: Haydn's Haus  (Read 1018638 times)

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Offline SonicMan46

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #7480 on: November 27, 2013, 11:34:06 AM »
Well, you are down to the root of the matter already. There has been some lively discussion about this topic in the past. You will find that most of the people who prefer the Festetics do so because they are just plain rowdier. I think the QM are virtually perfect, but I don't think perfect is the only possible outcome. The earlier opera (9 & 17) by the London Haydn Quartet are like that too. It comes down to what you are looking for. I think Haydn's personality would find rowdiness to be just right for him. I may be wrong, however.   :)

Now Gurn is this from 'personal' experience?   ;)  :D  Reminds me of some of Ronald Reagan's quotes like the one below - Dave :)

But for George, always nice to have your Haydn flavored w/ sugar one day and w/ pepper the next!  :)


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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #7481 on: November 27, 2013, 11:43:39 AM »
Now Gurn is this from 'personal' experience?   ;)  :D  Reminds me of some of Ronald Reagan's quotes like the one below - Dave :)

But for George, always nice to have your Haydn flavored w/ sugar one day and w/ pepper the next!  :)

Dave,
Well, I'm not yet at the point of channeling him... :D   But everything I've read tells me that decorum is only appreciated when it was necessary. And even then, there was no restraint about sticking in a little joke or two. ;)

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Offline Dancing Divertimentian

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #7482 on: November 27, 2013, 06:13:04 PM »


I've now heard their Op. 20 for the first time. The recorded sound and the performances are beautiful and soothing, but overall it seems too soothing and lacking in excitement. Is it just me or does this group tend interpret Haydn in this manner?

George, I'd say it isn't that the QM are 'lacking', it's just that their interpretive angle is more of an introspective one. I love how they dig into the crevices of each work. And they pull out some mighty fine jewels! ;D

Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Offline SonicMan46

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #7483 on: November 27, 2013, 07:49:53 PM »
Dave,
Well, I'm not yet at the point of channeling him... :D   But everything I've read tells me that decorum is only appreciated when it was necessary. And even then, there was no restraint about sticking in a little joke or two. ;)

Hi Gurn - of course, just a comic comment on my part - I've probably read 3-4 bios each on Haydn & Mozart over many years, and their Austrian humor seemed to be VERY down to earth (i.e. human bodily functions, fart jokes, etc.) which I can really relate to as a retired GI radiologist (my wife does not always appreciate my humor but she will chuckle).  Haydn seemed to have had a GREAT sense of humor and loved practical jokes (some expressed in his works, of course), so we would probably loved to have been in his presence.

Years ago when the film Blazing Saddles was released, Susan & I went w/ her parents to see the movie in Millburn, NJ - her parents were both Jewish physicians and her mother rather 'straight-faced' - but when the scene (below) appeared (the 'bean' dinner @ the campsite) - she did laugh w/ reluctance - I enjoyed! BUT, I would loved to have been sitting next to Haydn & the Mozarts - I'm sure that they would have been laughing loudly and even rolling on the floors - JUST my impression of the humor they enjoyed from that period - that I can still relate - funny!  Dave :)


Offline mc ukrneal

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #7484 on: November 27, 2013, 07:57:46 PM »
George, I'd say it isn't that the QM are 'lacking', it's just that their interpretive angle is more of an introspective one. I love how they dig into the crevices of each work. And they pull out some mighty fine jewels! ;D
So interesting that you write that, because I find them quite the opposite - quite extrovert. If I had to characterize them, I would say sunny in disposition (in a good sense). But if you listen too long, you might feel a little sunburned. I find that if I listen to only one quartet at a time that they don't wear on me so much. I think others fare better in comparison, but I find it hard to knock a version that is so genial too much.
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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #7485 on: November 27, 2013, 08:06:18 PM »
Hi Gurn - of course, just a comic comment on my part - I've probably read 3-4 bios each on Haydn & Mozart over many years, and their Austrian humor seemed to be VERY down to earth (i.e. human bodily functions, fart jokes, etc.) which I can really relate to as a retired GI radiologist (my wife does not always appreciate my humor but she will chuckle).  Haydn seemed to have had a GREAT sense of humor and loved practical jokes (some expressed in his works, of course), so we would probably loved to have been in his presence.

Years ago when the film Blazing Saddles was released, Susan & I went w/ her parents to see the movie in Millburn, NJ - her parents were both Jewish physicians and her mother rather 'straight-faced' - but when the scene (below) appeared (the 'bean' dinner @ the campsite) - she did laugh w/ reluctance - I enjoyed! BUT, I would loved to have been sitting next to Haydn & the Mozarts - I'm sure that they would have been laughing loudly and even rolling on the floors - JUST my impression of the humor they enjoyed from that period - that I can still relate - funny!  Dave :)

Perhaps the idea of "classical" equals "decorous" has too high an influence.

No, take out that "perhaps". 

The idea that "serious" music requires a sense of "decorum" is in many ways an invention of the 19th century, or even later.  Outside of church music, I'm sure the 18th century would be quite surprised to hear someone say music must always be dignified--and even with church music,  the appropriate reverence was due to the place and occasion, not innate to the music itself.

I'm sure both Haydn and Mozart would be not merely astonished but probably annoyed with the idea that their music should be treated as some sort of museum piece;  they'd probably be rushing to offer PDQ Bach new compositions to be included on his next CD.

Offline Dancing Divertimentian

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #7486 on: November 27, 2013, 08:55:41 PM »
So interesting that you write that, because I find them quite the opposite - quite extrovert. If I had to characterize them, I would say sunny in disposition (in a good sense). But if you listen too long, you might feel a little sunburned. I find that if I listen to only one quartet at a time that they don't wear on me so much. I think others fare better in comparison, but I find it hard to knock a version that is so genial too much.

It could come down to perspective. To me quartets like the Kodály are the ultimate in introspection: mellow and soothing - yet never sleepy. Next to them the QM do sound extrovert. But perhaps it's more a "middle-ground" thing for the QM since other quartets I feel are definitely more extrovert, like the Emerson (in the Emperor), the Leipzig, and the Ysaÿe (all great, btw). 

Without the benefit of comparisons I'd say yeah the QM do have their extrovert moments but there's always that trademark reining in of the tension (to lay on the poetry) that I enjoy so much. Maybe it's these moments that stand out to me more, dunno. But if it were all tension and no stopping to smell the roses I'd be much less inclined to even give the QM the time of day.   

And for me anyway I find I can sit through an entire QM Haydn disc without feeling the least bit burdened. I seldom can stop at one quartet.

Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #7487 on: November 28, 2013, 07:38:57 AM »
Hi Gurn - of course, just a comic comment on my part - I've probably read 3-4 bios each on Haydn & Mozart over many years, and their Austrian humor seemed to be VERY down to earth (i.e. human bodily functions, fart jokes, etc.) which I can really relate to as a retired GI radiologist (my wife does not always appreciate my humor but she will chuckle).  Haydn seemed to have had a GREAT sense of humor and loved practical jokes (some expressed in his works, of course), so we would probably loved to have been in his presence.

Years ago when the film Blazing Saddles was released, Susan & I went w/ her parents to see the movie in Millburn, NJ - her parents were both Jewish physicians and her mother rather 'straight-faced' - but when the scene (below) appeared (the 'bean' dinner @ the campsite) - she did laugh w/ reluctance - I enjoyed! BUT, I would loved to have been sitting next to Haydn & the Mozarts - I'm sure that they would have been laughing loudly and even rolling on the floors - JUST my impression of the humor they enjoyed from that period - that I can still relate - funny!  Dave :)

One of my favorite little 'real time' biographical bits comes when Griesinger is just generally describing Haydn (keeping in mind that this is for a German audience); he goes on about his nut-brown complexion and the always present twinkle in his eye, but then adds this which seems do modestly amusing to me; " he had a guileless roguery, or what the British call humour, it was was one of his outstanding characteristics". His basic idea that this had to be explained somehow is what tickles me, I suppose. Caroline Pichler, daughter of a Viennese who used to run salons and was a great friend of music, wrote in her diary many years later that when Haydn and Mozart were present together at their house they behaved like naughty children, laughing and joking, one as bad as the other. Probably why they were such good friends, beyond the music. I agree, the great 'fart scene' from Blazing Saddles would have had them rolling in the aisles. Hell, it had me rolling in the aisle the first time I saw it. And the tenth.  :)

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #7488 on: November 28, 2013, 06:25:50 PM »
I've been looking at this recital disk for a while now and finally decided to take the plunge. Especially since it doesn't duplicate material from the Nuria Rial recital, nor the Huss Opera at Eszterháza disk either.



As it turns out, Bonitatibus has a beautiful mezzo voice, navigating these rather difficult arias with apparent ease. I like mezzo's, the slightly lower pitch just falls more easily on my ear!

The included works are:
1. La Fedeltà premiata, opera, H. 28/10: Sinfonia
2. La Fedeltà premiata, opera, H. 28/10: Recitativo accompagnato: Barbaro conte... è questa la mercè
3. La Fedeltà premiata, opera, H. 28/10: Aria: Dell'amor mio fedele
4. La Fedeltà premiata, opera, H. 28/10: Aria: Placidi ruscelletti
5. Orlando Paladino (Der Ritter Roland), opera, H. 28/11: Sinfonia - Entrata d'Alcina
6. Orlando Paladino (Der Ritter Roland), opera, H. 28/11: Aria: Ad un guardo
7. Sono Alcina e sono ancora, aria for soprano & orchestra (for Gazzaniga's L'isola di Alcina), H. 24b/9
8. La Vera costanza, opera, H. 28/8: Sinfonia
9. La Vera costanza, opera, H. 28/8: Recitativo accompagnato: Misera, chi m'aiuta
10. La Vera costanza, opera, H. 28/8: Aria: Dove fuggo
11. L'infedeltà delusa, opera, H. 28/5: Aria: Ho un tumore in un ginocchio
12. L'infedeltà delusa, opera, H. 28/5: Aria: Trinche vaine allegramente
13. D'una sposa meschinella, aria for soprano & orchestra (for Paisiello's La Frascatana; doubtful), H. 24b/2
14. L'isola disabitata, opera, H. 28/9: Overtura
15. L'isola disabitata, opera, H. 28/9: Aria: Se non piange un infelice
16. Arianna a Naxos ('Teseo mio ben'), cantata for soprano & keyboard, H. 26b/2: Recitativo: Teseo mio ben! Ove sei? Ove sei tu?
17. Arianna a Naxos ('Teseo mio ben'), cantata for soprano & keyboard, H. 26b/2: Aria: Dove sei, mio bel tesoro?
18. Arianna a Naxos ('Teseo mio ben'), cantata for soprano & keyboard, H. 26b/2: Recitativo: Poco da me lontano
19. Arianna a Naxos ('Teseo mio ben'), cantata for soprano & keyboard, H. 26b/2: Aria: Ah! che morir vorrei in si fatal momento

As you see, in addition to the arias there are three instrumental 'sinfonias' (overtures) which are very nicely played by Il Complesso Barocco / Alan Curtis. Curtis also plays the fortepiano for the cantata 'Arianna a Naxos', which Bonitatibus knocks the bottom out of.

If you are a Superaudio fan, this is a hybrid that will work very nicely for you, while still playing on a standard player. I think it is a disk that is deserving of your attention if you dig an aria from time to time.  :)

8)
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Offline SonicMan46

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #7489 on: November 28, 2013, 06:35:31 PM »
One of my favorite little 'real time' biographical bits comes when Griesinger is just generally describing Haydn (keeping in mind that this is for a German audience); he goes on about his nut-brown complexion and the always present twinkle in his eye, but then adds this which seems do modestly amusing to me; " he had a guileless roguery, or what the British call humour, it was was one of his outstanding characteristics". His basic idea that this had to be explained somehow is what tickles me, I suppose. Caroline Pichler, daughter of a Viennese who used to run salons and was a great friend of music, wrote in her diary many years later that when Haydn and Mozart were present together at their house they behaved like naughty children, laughing and joking, one as bad as the other. Probably why they were such good friends, beyond the music. I agree, the great 'fart scene' from Blazing Saddles would have had them rolling in the aisles. Hell, it had me rolling in the aisle the first time I saw it. And the tenth.  :)

Gurn - thanks for the comments - really reinforces my own feelings from reading about these two composers over the years - really appreciate your input on this thread!  Dave :)

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #7490 on: November 28, 2013, 06:38:46 PM »
Gurn - thanks for the comments - really reinforces my own feelings from reading about these two composers over the years - really appreciate your input on this thread!  Dave :)

And I, yours, my friend. I am afflicted with Crusaderism, but someone has to be!   :D

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Offline Mandryka

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #7491 on: November 28, 2013, 09:49:05 PM »
because I find them quite the opposite - quite extrovert. If I had to characterize them, I would say sunny in disposition

I agree with this bit.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2013, 10:29:56 PM by Mandryka »
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #7492 on: November 29, 2013, 04:54:07 AM »
.   . I am afflicted with Crusaderism, but someone has to be!   :D

8)

Could be far worse. You could be Crusading for Hausstocken ;)
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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #7493 on: November 29, 2013, 09:26:32 AM »
Could be far worse. You could be Crusading for Hausstocken ;)

You read my mind.
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Offline ChamberNut

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #7494 on: December 02, 2013, 10:21:06 AM »
Last night, listened to Disc 14 of the Dennis Russell Davies and Stuttgart Chamber Orchestra set!  :)

Disc 14

Symphony No. 41 in C major - II. Un poco andante - marvelous, exquisite solo flute passages.

Symphony No. 65 in A major - What a great Finale.  The fabulous horn call that recurs in this mvt., with an answer by the popping, incisve strings.  :)
 
Symphony No. 48 in C major "Saturn"  :D "Maria Theresia" - OK, this is the first time I mention Mozart, in regards to Haydn's symphonies.  I must.  I could not help but recall Mozart's Jupiter Symphony when hearing this.  Especially, the first movement seemed totally 'late Mozart symphonic'.  Once again, the Stuttgart strings are vigorous, incisive, propulsive.  Man, people are right about the Stuttgart strings - they are fabulous!  I think of this as a 'prequel' to Mozart's Jupiter Symphony.  Was Mozart influenced by this symphony?  If I am out to lunch, just take me out at the back of the 'Haydn Haus', Old Yeller style.  ;D  Anyways, and regardless, this was a magnificent work, from start to finish.  One C major gem!  :-*



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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #7495 on: December 02, 2013, 11:00:55 AM »
Last night, listened to Disc 14 of the Dennis Russell Davies and Stuttgart Chamber Orchestra set!  :)

Disc 14

Symphony No. 41 in C major - II. Un poco andante - marvelous, exquisite solo flute passages.

Symphony No. 65 in A major - What a great Finale.  The fabulous horn call that recurs in this mvt., with an answer by the popping, incisve strings.  :)
 
Symphony No. 48 in C major "Saturn"  :D "Maria Theresia" - OK, this is the first time I mention Mozart, in regards to Haydn's symphonies.  I must.  I could not help but recall Mozart's Jupiter Symphony when hearing this.  Especially, the first movement seemed totally 'late Mozart symphonic'.  Once again, the Stuttgart strings are vigorous, incisive, propulsive.  Man, people are right about the Stuttgart strings - they are fabulous!  I think of this as a 'prequel' to Mozart's Jupiter Symphony.  Was Mozart influenced by this symphony?  If I am out to lunch, just take me out at the back of the 'Haydn Haus', Old Yeller style.  ;D  Anyways, and regardless, this was a magnificent work, from start to finish.  One C major gem!  :-*

Good listening, Ray!  You pose an interesting, albeit probably unanswerable, question with that last. One can only go by probabilities when it comes to influence, at least in this case. Haydn ->Mozart ->Haydn influence has been being debated for centuries now. :)  It is believed that Haydn wrote Symphony 48 for a visit that the Empress paid to Eszterházy in the early 1770's. That in itself wouldn't have precluded Mozart hearing it, but it wasn't published, and it is unknown whether it was widely distributed or not, which probably means it wasn't since there apparently aren't very many copies of it extant. However, for all we know, Mozart slept with an autograph copy under his pillow.... :D  It would have been a great work to emulate anyway.

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #7496 on: December 02, 2013, 11:24:22 AM »
Submitted for your approval: another imponderable in Da Haus.
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Offline ChamberNut

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #7497 on: December 02, 2013, 11:44:55 AM »
However, for all we know, Mozart slept with an autograph copy under his pillow.... :D  8)

Well, that MUST be the answer then!!  :D
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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #7498 on: December 02, 2013, 11:53:14 AM »
Add to the large pile of Rumors Wilfully Started by Gurn . . . .
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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Offline Brian

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #7499 on: December 02, 2013, 11:54:11 AM »
Hogwood/AAM box is on sale at ArkivMusic today only for $100. I'm thinking about it. Have not seen a better price...